Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[JCgrind]

So let's push on to easy calls to 3-bets (pg. 81+).

I want everyone who reads this thread become a master at playing in 3-bet pots. We need to cover a lot of ground, and this chapter is a good model to use, but there's still even more we can cover. So if you want to learn and participate, here's your change:

1) What are the most difficult things for you about playing in 3-bet pots?

playing in too many of them bc i have a terrible habit of being a PF station anyway, and am much worse while mass multitabling.

2) How are you playing in them on the turn?

Question is so broad, so much to cover....
i am very aggressive and bluffy in 3b pots, particularly IP OTF. As the 3ber, I double barrel vs anyone who has a 60% or less FCbet3BPot w virtually ATC when bluffing, and generally x/shove turns with my value hands vs floaters.

3) Are you able to turn second, third and worse hands into bluffs profitably?
99% sure i am, but would love to be able to confirm with relevant filters....

obviously doing far better as 3ber than vs 3bs. image is overall results using '3bet=YES, called3b=YES'. cant get any data to appear in any of the positional reports though so cant check profitability (or lack thereof) by position which is annoying. if anyone could help me with this that;d be great.

note that since ive only really played 10-16-25deep since i reset my databass, so even though it looks like im doing well, i fail at higher stakes (50NL+) when facing 3bs IP and OOP

 

[Menschlich]

I really liked your section on quasi 3-betting. It seems like a good strategy for the micros and nanos. You say that we should 3-bet 2.67x when in position, is this only with a quasi range or also a value range? What about our bluff range, do you size our 3-bets bigger then?

 

[John A]

obviously doing far better as 3ber than vs 3bs. image is overall results using '3bet=YES, called3b=YES'. cant get any data to appear in any of the positional reports though so cant check profitability (or lack thereof) by position which is annoying. if anyone could help me with this that;d be great.

note that since ive only really played 10-16-25deep since i reset my databass, so even though it looks like im doing well, i fail at higher stakes (50NL+) when facing 3bs IP and OOP

I've not been around for the holidays..

But that's good. Since you mainly play deep, your 3-bet stats and how you play most spots will be a bit different than the typical 100bb game as you know. I put up some 3-bet filters and trouble hands on here, so make sure you grab them and run them. You can post any spots that give you trouble if you'd like some specific feedback.

 

[John A]

I really liked your section on quasi 3-betting. It seems like a good strategy for the micros and nanos. You say that we should 3-bet 2.67x when in position, is this only with a quasi range or also a value range? What about our bluff range, do you size our 3-bets bigger then?

Depends if they are fish, or regulars you're going to possibly see more. At nano's, you probably won't have a lot of regs, and you can vary your 3-bet sizing until you've shown something down. But in general, you can do it with both in position. However, at nano and micro I would vary as often as I can until I think someone is capable of reading what my size variation means.

 

[Figaroo2]

I am unsure as to your point;
3) Are you able to turn second, third and worse hands into bluffs profitably?
Can you give some examples of this.
I usually only bluff when my cards are too low to have any showdown value at all. I do however check call a reasonable number of bluff catchers on the river with what feels like good results.


Here is one such hand. this villain was vpip 54 pf 32 agg 16 over 67 hands
poker stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

MP2: $2.43 (48.6 bb)
MP3: $10.15 (203 bb)
CO: $5.33 (106.6 bb)
BTN: $5 (100 bb)
SB: $2.62 (52.4 bb)
Hero (BB): $5 (100 bb)
UTG+1: $5.05 (101 bb)
UTG+2: $5.49 (109.8 bb)
MP1: $5 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with As 7s
7 folds, SB completes, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.10) Kh 7d 6d (2 players)
SB bets $0.10, Hero calls $0.10

Turn: ($0.30) Ks (2 players)
SB bets $0.30, Hero calls $0.30

River: ($0.90) 6s (2 players)
SB bets $2.17 and is all-in,
(I had seen him do this several times in the session and he had never been looked up so I decided to.)

Hero calls $2.17

Results: $5.24 pot ($0.22 rake)
Final Board: Kh 7d 6d Ks 6s
SB showed 2d 8h and lost (-$2.62 net)
Hero showed As 7s and won $5.02 ($2.40 net)

 

[John A]

Well, that's a lot different than what I'm talking about, but nh.

What I'm saying is that you're capable of calling a 3-bet and turning an obvious losing hand into a bluff. If you can't do this on occasion enough, then you should be cutting down your 3-bet calling range a lot.

 

[Dom1]

I noticed in a previous post you mention there's a new version of Leak Buster coming out.
Do you have a date?
If buy this version will I have to pay for an update?
Thanks

 

[John A]

We don't have a hard date. I'm hoping within the next couple of weeks. You never know though with testing, etc... We never make hard deadlines. But yes, if you get it now you will get the update. Leak Buster 4.0 is increasing in price slightly.

This is funny fun leak buster stuff though...

 

[John A]

Ok, so on the subject of 3-betting. Going to put this up for review / comment. I'm going to make another short video on the end of this chapter and then move on the the next.

 

[dj11]

Assuming;
6 max
reg is to our right

How often (per orbit or per hour) can you reasonably think the semi-bluff part of these plays can work?

 

[John A]

It depends on two things.

1) How reactive your reg is. Someone who is a better reg is going to likely highly suspect or recognize after you do this the second time. In these cases, you're doing it to set them up when you have a good hand, so the third/fourth time you'll want to have a real hand.
Against someone who doesn't adjust, and a lot of high multi-tabling regs won't, especially at smaller stakes like this, then you can do it quite a lot before they adjust. Maybe 4-5 times in a 20 minute span.

2) How reactive the table is in general. You don't just have to worry about the person you're 3-betting, but other good regs at the table who can 4-bet light. I wouldn't worry about that too much at these stakes and below though. Maybe at 100nl+ it starts to become a bigger issue.

In general, as I suggest in the video, just do it at a pace that makes sense based on your goal. If your goal is to tilt the player on your right, try and do it in quick succession and then have a real hand not too far after.

If your goal is just to steal a few pots, and stay under the radar, then make sure you have a decent amount of time before you re-steal again. Keep an even rhythm and pace. There's a big difference in the reaction of players if you do something once, and then do it again right away, versus giving several orbits again before you make the same play. Even though in terms of variance, it really shouldn't matter, it impact a persons psychology more when it's in rapid succession.

 

[Figaroo2]

Great video John thank you.
I've just played 800 hands full ring today everything up to 25c nl and not seen many spots with a reg trying to iso a limper must be a 6 max or higher stakes thing.
When I did see the right spots I was in the blinds with premium and been raising for value anyway.

 

[John A]

Great video John thank you.
I've just played 800 hands full ring today everything up to 25c nl and not seen many spots with a reg trying to iso a limper must be a 6 max or higher stakes thing.
When I did see the right spots I was in the blinds with premium and been raising for value anyway.

You should be seeing it at 25nl, and some 10nl games. It depends on your table, and you need at least 1 fish, but it should happen many times per session.

 

[Figaroo2]

Just after some advice John, since I've started 3 betting more I've started losing for the first time in 3 years. I'm down over $130 on Pstars in the last 6 weeks, This after a nice winning month in Oct.
What is odd is that your tactics work and I can see that in my results but i'm making much bigger mistakes on the turn and river. It seems like turning up the aggression with 3 betting more is driving me to force it on the turn and sometimes firing 3 bullets and getting it in too light.
My agg is often up around 10-16 and it feels like i'm forcing.
I used to be proud of not being felted but its happening all the time now. Combined with some bad running I'm now tilted, I used to be proud of not being tilted but this hand proves it, I do recognise it. I've posted a few other bad beats around the site which have got me to tilt.

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
Hero (CO): $5.34 (106.8 bb)
BB: $3.74 (74.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Kh Tc
5 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, 2 folds, BB raises to $0.25, Hero calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.52) 8d Kc 9h (2 players)
BB bets $0.50, Hero calls $0.50

Turn: ($1.52) Qc (2 players)
BB bets $1.45, Hero calls $1.45

River: ($4.42) 6c (2 players)
BB bets $1.54 and is all-in, Hero calls $1.54

Results: $7.50 pot ($0.31 rake)
Final Board: 8d Kc 9h Qc 6c
Hero mucked Kh Tc and lost (-$3.74 net)
BB showed 9s 8s and won $7.19 ($3.45 net)

I put him on AK but still called him down knowing I was probably beat.

So the question is I suppose is this just teething pains with the change in style? How do you temper the extra aggression?

 

[John A]

There are going to be growing pains of course when you're learning new strategies. I'm not advocating bluffing off your stack. I'm saying to look for spots where people open too wide, 3-bet a polarized range (this is nothing ground breaking, all pros advocate this), but also look for opponents where you can implement a quasi 3-bet value range because a LOT of them exist at micro/small stakes.

Post your positional stats up and I will take a look at what you're doing.

 

[John A]

Post this... this is from my small stakes database position report:

 

[Figaroo2]

too many characters??



got there eventually trouble uploading, this is my entire cash games history. since oct and implementing your material I have got my 3 bet up to 4% and my cc down to 10.6 from 14.7 which was my biggest leak in the blinds. look forward to your comments.

 

[John A]

I need to see your latest data .... so we can talk about what you might be doing that is an over adjustment.

 

[aceboogie]

thanks jon this is the reason i joined cardschat

 

[Figaroo2]

Stats 01/10/13 to 09/12/13

Here is the more recent stats

 

[John A]

thanks jon this is the reason i joined cardschat

You're the reason I post! Glad you've joined... Cardschat is a really good online poker community. Welcome.

 

[John A]

Here is the more recent stats

Ok... so based on what you're looking at, and what is talked about in Chapter 7, what do you see that you're doing wrong? What are some things that stick out the most to you if anything?

 

[pistolpetewags11]

I see it a lot in the 2 4 cent 6 max tables I am playing at. I min-raise preflop very often when in position and or strong and I notice others doing so as well. However to combat it, many players are raising the min-raise with marginal hands. I have exploited this by re-raising with semi strong hands, like the ones mentioned in your video.

Thank you for the video. I have been 6 tabling 2 4 cent games, and profiting every session. I will play 2 4 cent as it seems to be finally coming around for me in my poker game and strategy.

John, what do you recommend for me to move up to the next level? I am at 2 4 cent, started with $20 and I am up to $45.

Thank you!

 

[John A]

That's a pretty big question. I don't know very much about your game, but I'd say the biggest mistake that ends up compounding itself as players move up stake levels is pre-flop play. Study and get this down to an expert level. Start with hand charts if you need to, and post hands about pre-flop decisions. Before you can even play good post flop poker, you need to be playing the correct hands in the right situations.

 

[Figaroo2]

Ok 1st thing that jumps out is the amount lost in the BB.
Looking at the hands in more detail my $EV Diff is -25.63 as opposed to -78 actually lost. I took 4 bad beats for 100bb whilst playing from the BB so i'm not overly concerned about this. I could be raising more from the BB especially against late position and btn stealers.
Generally happy with my Sb stats apart from the high vpip which shows a lot of limping. at micro you dont get squeezed hardly ever by the BB. I dont limp first in so usually I limp with limpers already in. If my pot odds are decent i play most connectors in the SB.
CO and BTN I need to play 15% more hands increasing my 3 betting from both positions. better implementation of the 3 bet quasi range. As i also pointed out before. I usually play full ring where hand strengths entering are higher than 6 max which does make this a bit tougher. having said that the reraise from the btn has nearly always taken it down with continued aggression on the flop and turn.

MP I would like to see a much higher pfr. I did take 4 awful bad beats so again i'm not beating myself up too much here.
As i've indicated elsewhere i'm running very poorly losing about 6 sets all in on flop or turn, twice getting top 2 pair in on the flop against bottom set and losing a monster draw (as usual.... 6 failed monster draws in a row)
Generally i'd like to see a ratio of pfr to vpip nearer 75% than 50%. It is more like that when i play 25nl when everything tightens up significantly as limping is punished more.
I have recently gone back to limping EP with AA and KK that is showing in the stats. I have found it a useful play to come back over the top of late squeeze raisers. If I get to show it down I will later do the same play with AK.
I intend to play more 6 max.
Also my MTT and sng play has not suffered from bad running and over the same period i'm in the money 31% in what I have been playing.