). On the other hand, I've already seen 5NL players talking about (and even using) PokerSnowie so...yea, the end for Holdem is near 
I think it's getting more and more popular these days, especially starting from 50NL (or even at 25NL Zoom) lots of people already have an idea about that stuff (although my "observations"/opinion might be a little biased because thats the only thing I'm constantly working on/thinking about/obsessed with these days
Sure but it's something and it just shows in which direction online poker is going to. I heard about 500NL Zoom players breaking even with Snowie's advice but when you see players at the very lowest stakes talking about it - it's just not funny anymore. There is also GTO RangeBuilder - I haven't tested it or anything but I enjoy reading their blog and watching their videos. Oh and don't forget about most of the popular training sites constantly blabbing and producing content about GTO.
) AND it all goes to sh*t if suddenly a 10/8 guy opens UTG, barrels 3 streets and shows up with 69o.), common sense and various shortcuts so nobody really learns/works on GTO to actually always play GTO. It's more about understanding "The Bigger Picture" and being able to find weaknesses in others' strategies (like: it might be GTO for SB to 3bet 30% of BTN's opens which would require BTN to defend a huge chunk of his range and therefore forcing him to tighten up a lot, which of course goes against a common conception of loosening up in late positions. Yet, people still open a lot, even 70%+, from the BTN. Why is that? ) Tipton also has some good concent regarding GTO...What's your approach? If I was to sign up for a coaching with you and was only interested in that kind of stuff, where would we begin?
You're kind of making the case against GTO here though. I know you're saying that most of the time they'll do X, so you just need to balance properly. But the problem is, very few people do X (the correct play) consistently. So if you're playing to mentally get yourself off, then have fun with it.2. I try not to worry about things I can't control. Like: can you tell me what range will a specific villain call with when you 3bet him? Or what range will somebody open UTG with? You can't control it...Sure, you can look at some stats, see that he's opening x% of hands and make some logical assumptions such as: he is more likely to open top x% not bottom x% of the hands but still you don't know it for sure among a lot of other things (eg: how he constructs the bottom of his range although...does it really matter?
I just play for money, and I personally don't care about anything else because there's tons of other more mentally challenging things to do where I won't make money. I use poker for it's primary intended purposes. Exactly. But I've seen guys call in spots they shouldn't because "I can get exploited if I always fold in this spot". I always get a good laugh out of that one. I've coached so many winning and good players over the years and I hear how they talk about the game. People can't track how often someone is doing X with Y, even at high stakes.So the best you can do is make some assumptions based on eg: population tendencies, common sense and/or other factors and work from there. The assumption that villain is also playing GTO makes things "easier" because by definition one cannot gain anything by deviating from GTO so if I manage to figure something out based on that assumption...
Thats the first thing. The second thing is that...well nobody really knows "The" GTO solution (for now), those are all approximations filled with a level of randomness (unless you constantly have random.org opened, it's hard to execute all the actions with appropriate frequencies
I don't teach GTO play. I teach exploitative play and some balancing concepts to better players. But I talk about purely from range vs. range and equity distribution across that range. GTO is something that is going to burn away at some point because even theoretically if the top players could play GTO perfectly, they'll eventually realize they aren't computers, and that poker is still a game about people. Passing money back and forth isn't too much fun, so you have to learn how to psychologically alter your opponents lines and take them off their games. Even the most stoic of players have psychological flaws, and that's always where the biggest exploitative part of this game will be won because in the end we're human and not computers.3. What's your approach to teaching GTO as a coach? I know lots of people (me included...) use (...used) Janda's ideas/content but there is also a group of people (as always) who disagree with him and his approach. They suggest, I quote: "MoP toy games + bruteforce" whatever that means - I think they just mean grinding a lot of CREV trees
Yeah, it's a hard and painful life trying to perfectly defend all the "required" combos
I like Splitsuits example of GTO
http://www.splitsuit.com/should-i-play-gto-poker
GTO is short for Game Theory Optimal and I think the easiest way to explain GTO is with a game of chicken. You have 2 cars driving at each other and the one that swerves loses. So what’s the optimal GTO Strategy for this game? Is it to always go straight? Is it to always go left, always go right, to balance it 1/3 a piece, or something else?The actual optimal way to play chicken is to take your steering wheel off, hold it out the window, and force your opponent to do something. By doing this you cant do anything that gets exploited; your opponent has to do react to this information. In the longrun the only thing he can do here is swerve, because by going straight he’ll always die.
So what will give them an edge if studying math/theory is not the way to improve? Taking psychology lessons?
:smile:
Ok, but you do have some background in GTO to be able to know what might be correct and what not - so you know what exploitative adjustments to make (if not, than that's just a guessing game to me TBH). I'm just asking what was your base? Where did you start etc...
Thats cool. I've been looking at this also lately but mostly in relation to River Play + building some CREV trees with different scenarios for it as well (if that's what I think...you were talking about: do you use a tool similar to EDVis for that?
).They don't need to "be computers". IMO 100bb No-Limit Holdem will be eventually solved and despite the potentially enormous amount of data and information needed to be stored and constantly kept track of, somebody will just code a simple piece of software to fetch the appropriate decisions based on a current state of the game tree (if not, I will do that ffs).GTO is something that is going to burn away at some point because even theoretically if the top players could play GTO perfectly, they'll eventually realize they aren't computers, and that poker is still a game about people. Passing money back and forth isn't too much fun, so you have to learn how to psychologically alter your opponents lines and take them off their games. Even the most stoic of players have psychological flaws, and that's always where the biggest exploitative part of this game will be won because in the end we're human and not computers.
I dont.
Is he an aggressive whale or passive? W/o that info I'm not sure if I like the river check or not. But as played I'd be jamming river - but don't post results. You know that.
So what will give them an edge if studying math/theory is not the way to improve? Taking psychology lessons?
:smile:
Ok, but you do have some background in GTO to be able to know what might be correct and what not - so you know what exploitative adjustments to make (if not, than that's just a guessing game to me TBH). I'm just asking what was your base? Where did you start etc...
Thats cool. I've been looking at this also lately but mostly in relation to River Play + building some CREV trees with different scenarios for it as well (if that's what I think...you were talking about: do you use a tool similar to EDVis for that?
They don't need to "be computers". IMO 100bb No-Limit Holdem will be eventually solved and despite the potentially enormous amount of data and information needed to be stored and constantly kept track of, somebody will just code a simple piece of software to fetch the appropriate decisions based on a current state of the game tree (if not, I will do that ffs).
I dont.
I'm sorry but isn't it like really, really obvious? Of course if someone is calling too much (deviating from GTO), you're better off switching (deviating yourself from GTO) to a pure strategy of never bluffing in that particular spot. I mean... everybody knows that...Was that the point/purpose of your original question about our thoughts on GTO?
I think that in almost every book (and training video) about Game Theory I've read (watched) so far, the main idea was to always seek for exploitative deviations (maximally exploitative strategies), not actually trying to play GTO all the time and against everybody. Knowledge of GTO approximations/concepts allows you to find those deviations though. It's not my or your fault that some people just cannot comprehend that and call 3 pot barrels with a 4th pair to "make Villain indifferent to bluffing with ATC" or any other bs excuse.
