Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[WabiSabi]

Standard? Someone told me that we shouldn't be calling to chop. If that's the case should we find a fold at somepoint?
we cannot fold turn with a backdoor. And on river cannot fold considering the price? Even vs this type of opponent? (Assuming tight/nitty)

28 hands isn't enough to make to many assumptions so for me this is an easy 4bet pre and call if they shove.But as played you need to be calling down on that runout. Villain can have worse value hands and bluffs as'well as us splitting the pot quite a bit. Your blocking the value hands that have you beat and apart from something like A3s no bluffs really got there. Its not a run out we can consider folding tptk imo.Also you should absolutely be calling to split the pot if the pot is offering you the correct odds to do so.But this isn't a spot you need to worry about that.

 

[Alucard]

Line check. Played a bit passive cause his flatting range has a ton of broadways middle pairs etc. Not sure about though

pokerstars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 169.9 BB (VPIP: 19.76, PFR: 15.19, 3Bet Preflop: 6.41, Hands: 765)
SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
Hero (BB): 184.7 BB
CO: 106.2 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 13)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Ac Ah
fold, fold, SB raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 9 BB, SB calls 6 BB

Flop : (18 BB, 2 players) 7s Ts 8d
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn : (18 BB, 2 players) 9h
SB bets 11.5 BB, Hero calls 11.5 BB

River : (41 BB, 2 players) 5s
SB checks, Hero checks

 

[braveslice]

PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Poke' Angelo (BTN): 235.5 BB
GuiBP (SB): 106 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
Maroccan.D (BB): 100 BB (VPIP: 24.45, PFR: 21.49, 3Bet Preflop: 7.69, Hands: 235)
PBonday (UTG): 282 BB
braveslice (MP): 193.5 BB
fabricato666 (CO): 101.5 BB (VPIP: 18.75, PFR: 9.68, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 34)

GuiBP posts SB 0.5 BB, Maroccan.D posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) braveslice has T♠ T♦

fold, braveslice raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, GuiBP calls 2.5 BB, fold

Flop: (7 BB, 2 players) 9♣ 8♥ 4♦
GuiBP checks, braveslice bets 5 BB, fold

braveslice wins 7 BB


Hey John, I don’t see any reason why to check, except we block the possible draws, I see semi connected board and hero has over pair. Now what is the hard part is that gto solver gives full 100% check range, so no CB ‘ever’ with our range on this board. So does this have any meaning to real poker, Q1: like should we check this board for some reason reasonable often, and Q2: in pure gto world why 100% check, that sounds so implausible that I might just do something very wrong with analysis.

I used two ranges for villain, one normal and one wide and both gave similar results, villain wide: {AA-22,AKs-A4s,KQs-K9s,QJs-Q9s,JTs-J9s,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,AKo-ATo,KQo-KJo,QJo}

Hero range: { AA-55,AKs-A2s,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs,T9s,98s,AKo-ATo,KQo-KJo}

 

[Figaroo2]

Pacific, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players

SB: $4.09 (20.5 bb)
Hero (BB): $37.69 (188.5 bb)
MP: $20 (100 bb)
CO: $10.95 (54.8 bb)
BTN: $30.49 (152.5 bb) VPIP: 18, PFR: 15, 3B: 7, AF: 2.1, Hands: 3393 Tricky good regular.

Preflop: Hero is BB with T

T

MP folds, CO calls $0.20, BTN raises to $0.80, SB folds, Hero calls $0.60, CO calls $0.60

Flop: ($2.50) 7

8

T

(3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, BTN bets $1.33, Hero calls $1.33, CO folds

Turn: ($5.16) A

(2 players)
Hero bets $5.16, BTN calls $5.16

River: ($15.48) 7

(2 players)
Hero bets $15.48, BTN calls $15.48

 

[Ian the Fish]

Pacific, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players

SB: $4.09 (20.5 bb)
Hero (BB): $37.69 (188.5 bb)
MP: $20 (100 bb)
CO: $10.95 (54.8 bb)
BTN: $30.49 (152.5 bb) VPIP: 18, PFR: 15, 3B: 7, AF: 2.1, Hands: 3393 Tricky good regular.

Preflop: Hero is BB with T

T

MP folds, CO calls $0.20, BTN raises to $0.80, SB folds, Hero calls $0.60, CO calls $0.60

Flop: ($2.50) 7

8

T

(3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, BTN bets $1.33, Hero calls $1.33, CO folds

Turn: ($5.16) A

(2 players)
Hero bets $5.16, BTN calls $5.16

River: ($15.48) 7

(2 players)
Hero bets $15.48, BTN calls $15.48

You played this exactly the way I would play it. The perfect turn card to bet, and the perfect river to fill up.

I would guess something like AQ / AK for the villain?

 

[WabiSabi]

I'm not a fan of over calling 3bets especially oop,id 4bet pre and fold to a shove.As played though with TT id raise the flop it's far to wet to just flat.And i wouldn't lead the turn the A is the perfect card for villain to barrel and also hits villains value range so leading into them at this point doesn't make much sense to me. I would go the the check raise ott at that stage had i of elected to just call the flop.

 

[Aces2w1n]

Im with raising the flop esp if ur aggro player.... having a range where you could be doing this with draws and nutty hands is very hard to play against

 

[manolo salazar]

I have read your volume 1 book it is really good. Congratulations. I would like that you write some things for tournaments.

 

[Figaroo2]

I'm not a fan of over calling 3bets especially oop,id 4bet pre and fold to a shove.As played though with TT id raise the flop it's far to wet to just flat.And i wouldn't lead the turn the A is the perfect card for villain to barrel and also hits villains value range so leading into them at this point doesn't make much sense to me. I would go the the check raise ott at that stage had i of elected to just call the flop.

Well he's isolating a limper rather than 3 betting. I'm only having to call 4bb, I don't want to have to raise fold TT here and calling is more likely to keep the fish in the hand.
I don't know why good players constantly blast weak players out of hands preflop.
So one of the tactics to use against wide late position stealers and isolators is the turn lead overbet. I use this tactic a fair amount and this reg is likely to have seen me lead the turn like this with a some fairly low equity hands.
Yeah you could raise flop and Check raise the turn but good players know he is usually up against a strong hand and give up.
I rarely check raise the turn here as it looks so strong and to a good reg the full pot or slight overbet turn lead is aggravating and they want to know what hands you are doing that with.
You cannot also be sure that a good balanced player will bet an ace here. He now has showdown value and possibly his own flush draws and he will want some Ax in his turn checking range. They arent all going to bet the turn.
The board is perfect to represent a semi bluff and you need to mix it up against really good players like this guy if you want to get paid by them.

 

[Alucard]

Well he's isolating a limper rather than 3 betting. I'm only having to call 4bb, I don't want to have to raise fold TT here and calling is more likely to keep the fish in the hand.
I don't know why good players constantly blast weak players out of hands preflop.
So one of the tactics to use against wide late position stealers and isolators is the turn lead overbet. I use this tactic a fair amount and this reg is likely to have seen me lead the turn like this with a some fairly low equity hands.
Yeah you could raise flop and Check raise the turn but good players know he is usually up against a strong hand and give up.
I rarely check raise the turn here as it looks so strong and to a good reg the full pot or slight overbet turn lead is aggravating and they want to know what hands you are doing that with.
You cannot also be sure that a good balanced player will bet an ace here. He now has showdown value and possibly his own flush draws and he will want some Ax in his turn checking range. They arent all going to bet the turn.
The board is perfect to represent a semi bluff and you need to mix it up against really good players like this guy if you want to get paid by them.

At the same time you are opening yourself up to getting outflopped 3 way OOP Fig. Which is terrible. I only see a set mine here with Ts
I'm 3betting pre. Bet Bet Jam river

 

[Figaroo2]

At the same time you are opening yourself up to getting outflopped 3 way OOP Fig. Which is terrible. I only see a set mine here with Ts
I'm 3betting pre. Bet Bet Jam river

The only hands id flat here are 77-TT,

22-66 im mining/3betting about 50%
Most Ax i'll three bet pretty large.

Regs are isolating really wide in this spot

 

[Figaroo2]

That AK 4bet spot again

Pacific, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $12.18 (121.8 bb)VPIP: 19, PFR: 10, 3B: 5, AF: 1.6, Hands: 1163
BB: $12.58 (125.8 bb)
UTG+2: $7.55 (75.5 bb)
MP1: $8.88 (88.8 bb)
MP2: $4.28 (42.8 bb)
MP3: $11.92 (119.2 bb)
CO: $12.09 (120.9 bb)
Hero (BTN): $10.14 (101.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with K

A

5 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB raises to $0.82, BB folds, Hero raises to $2.09, SB calls $1.27

Flop: ($4.28) T

3

4

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $8.05 and is all-in, SB folds

Results: $4.28 pot ($0.21 rake)
Final Board: T

3

4

SB mucked and lost (-$2.09 net)
Hero mucked K

A

and won $4.07 ($1.98 net)

 

[Ian the Fish]

Pacific, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $12.18 (121.8 bb)VPIP: 19, PFR: 10, 3B: 5, AF: 1.6, Hands: 1163
BB: $12.58 (125.8 bb)
UTG+2: $7.55 (75.5 bb)
MP1: $8.88 (88.8 bb)
MP2: $4.28 (42.8 bb)
MP3: $11.92 (119.2 bb)
CO: $12.09 (120.9 bb)
Hero (BTN): $10.14 (101.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with K

A

5 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB raises to $0.82, BB folds, Hero raises to $2.09, SB calls $1.27

Flop: ($4.28) T

3

4

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $8.05 and is all-in, SB folds

Results: $4.28 pot ($0.21 rake)
Final Board: T

3

4

SB mucked and lost (-$2.09 net)
Hero mucked K

A

and won $4.07 ($1.98 net)

Quite high variance, however, I am not sure if the villain could fold JJ / QQ. I like the play regardless.

 

[Figaroo2]

Quite high variance, however, I am not sure if the villain could fold JJ / QQ. I like the play regardless.

On one occasion I had a player flash JJ and fold on a 9 high board.
It's tough to call it off with JJ & QQ.
Our fold equity and 20% against his likely calling range seems to make it +ev for 100bb.
I wanted John to see this hand as we were talking about this spot recently.

 

[WabiSabi]

Well he's isolating a limper rather than 3 betting. I'm only having to call 4bb, I don't want to have to raise fold TT here and calling is more likely to keep the fish in the hand.
I don't know why good players constantly blast weak players out of hands preflop.
So one of the tactics to use against wide late position stealers and isolators is the turn lead overbet. I use this tactic a fair amount and this reg is likely to have seen me lead the turn like this with a some fairly low equity hands.
Yeah you could raise flop and Check raise the turn but good players know he is usually up against a strong hand and give up.
I rarely check raise the turn here as it looks so strong and to a good reg the full pot or slight overbet turn lead is aggravating and they want to know what hands you are doing that with.
You cannot also be sure that a good balanced player will bet an ace here. He now has showdown value and possibly his own flush draws and he will want some Ax in his turn checking range. They arent all going to bet the turn.
The board is perfect to represent a semi bluff and you need to mix it up against really good players like this guy if you want to get paid by them.

I misread the hand tbh i thought we were facing a 3bet from a reg on the btn so i think calling is ok in this spot. Although if you make it $2.40 or something we can iso the fish from the reg and play a hu pot vs the fish in a bigger pot with a lower spr.

 

[John A]

Line check. Played a bit passive cause his flatting range has a ton of broadways middle pairs etc. Not sure about though

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 169.9 BB (VPIP: 19.76, PFR: 15.19, 3Bet Preflop: 6.41, Hands: 765)
SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
Hero (BB): 184.7 BB
CO: 106.2 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 13)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Ac Ah
fold, fold, SB raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 9 BB, SB calls 6 BB

Flop : (18 BB, 2 players) 7s Ts 8d
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn : (18 BB, 2 players) 9h
SB bets 11.5 BB, Hero calls 11.5 BB

River : (41 BB, 2 players) 5s
SB checks, Hero checks

BvB on the flop here, I think you should be betting a ton here in a 3-bet pot. You want a checking range, but I don't think you need to worry about balancing a big over pair here.

As played, I'd still bet/fold river unless he's aggressive enough you think he'd turn TP+ into a bluff.

 

[John A]

Pacific, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $12.18 (121.8 bb)VPIP: 19, PFR: 10, 3B: 5, AF: 1.6, Hands: 1163
BB: $12.58 (125.8 bb)
UTG+2: $7.55 (75.5 bb)
MP1: $8.88 (88.8 bb)
MP2: $4.28 (42.8 bb)
MP3: $11.92 (119.2 bb)
CO: $12.09 (120.9 bb)
Hero (BTN): $10.14 (101.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with K

A

5 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB raises to $0.82, BB folds, Hero raises to $2.09, SB calls $1.27

Flop: ($4.28) T

3

4

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $8.05 and is all-in, SB folds

Results: $4.28 pot ($0.21 rake)
Final Board: T

3

4

SB mucked and lost (-$2.09 net)
Hero mucked K

A

and won $4.07 ($1.98 net)

You're folding out splits and that's about it.

 

[WabiSabi]

With the AK hand my cbet sizing in 4bet pots is generally 1/3p so that.s what i would do around $1.40 . It gives you a choice of either a two or three street game.If you have AA KK QQ here you want to take a line like 1/3p on the flop and shove turn or 1/3p flop and turn and shove river to commit villain to the hand.It also induces some bluffs on the flop and turn where as larger bets allow villain to play much better poker.And gives them far easier decisions while also narrowing they're ranges to the top end of the value range.

Your in position so you have the luxury of being able to check back the turn and realize the hands full equity while only committing 30% of your stack with a flop cbet. You can then decide on a 2 street game on the turn and shove any J Q K A. Or possibly play a 3 street game on a A K turn by cbetting turn for 1/3p and shoving river.If it wasn't for the fact we have some backdoor equity allowing us to play a good chunk of turns i would just check back the flop.Which in all honesty isn't such a bad choice anyway.

 

[Ian the Fish]

Thank you, Polished Poker!

During our sweat session today Figaroo2 had an idea to post my graph in this thread. I owe a huge thank you to you, John, as well as, of course, you, Figaroo2! I have been on my game like never before.

 

[Alucard]

Got quite the interesting hand

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

UTG: 251.6 BB (VPIP: 15.44, PFR: 10.42, 3Bet Preflop: 9.42, Hands: 528)
Hero (CO): 101.7 BB
BTN: 110.3 BB (VPIP: 67.16, PFR: 5.97, 3Bet Preflop: 10.00, Hands: 67)
SB: 141.7 BB (VPIP: 29.59, PFR: 26.02, 3Bet Preflop: 10.14, Hands: 203)
BB: 109.2 BB (VPIP: 29.17, PFR: 17.50, 3Bet Preflop: 6.93, Hands: 246)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Kc Ac
fold, Hero raises to 2.5 BB, fold, SB raises to 10 BB, fold, Hero raises to 22 BB, SB calls 12 BB

Flop : (45 BB, 2 players) 7h Qd Tc
SB checks, Hero bets 15 BB, SB calls 15 BB

Turn : (75 BB, 2 players) 4s
SB checks, Hero checks

River : (75 BB, 2 players) 8d
SB checks, Hero bets 64.7 BB and is all-in, fold

Hero wins 71.6 BB


his wtsd is around 25% which I didn't notice at the time.
I'm wondering what's the line I should take here repping my entire value range?
I would probably just shov my aces/kings on turn & may check Qs to induce something & shove river.
But if we are shoving AA/KK on turn shouldn't we do the same with AK? At least sometime (50%?,33%??)

And at the same time I'm not quite certain we are folding out too many hands by shoving river that beats us.
chopping 9 combos of AK & probably folding 6 combos of Js. - total of 15
Since he's loose we could add something like KQs,QJs - KQs probably not folding & even unsure about QJs. - total of 6
The others would probably be hands which were drawing or middle pairs > draws where we are clearly ahead of & shoving would be +ev vs middle pairs

Clearly getting called by 3 combos of AQs,& 3combos of AA & 6combos of Kings which are trapping. 3combos of Qs & 3combos of Ts. - total of 18
(after calculating the number of combos we could probably fold I guess it should be fine. right?)

And also there's a huge chance that QQ/TT lead shoving river of course as well as AA/KK

 

[John A]

During our sweat session today Figaroo2 had an idea to post my graph in this thread. I owe a huge thank you to you, John, as well as, of course, you, Figaroo2! I have been on my game like never before.

Well done... congrats! I will try and be on this next week for sure. Baseball finally finished this week, which was taking up any ounce of free time I had left.

 

[John A]

Got quite the interesting hand

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players

Yeah, not a fan of the river bluff (and now just read your comments, and that's why - not folding much out and not repping enough). But to your question, you should be betting slightly more on the flop with most of your range, because you're not going to have a large river bluffing range. If you were playing perfect GTO play, then yes you would, but I don't think we're concerned about that here w/ no history.

So your value range should be KQ+, KK+, J9, and in a 3-bet pot, I don't mind sometimes checking sets on the turn on a board like this. So I'd have some sets in my range also. But again, we don't need many bluffs here as a consequence. Something like this:
(it won't let me post a pic in this message for some reason. I'll try in the next post).

 

[John A]

 

[WabiSabi]

Got quite the interesting hand

I don't like the river bluff as the 8 doesn't improve your range because your unlikely 3betting 88 pre from the CO.Personally i like the 1/3p flop sizing in a 4bet pot.Villain can have some hands like AJ so you probably have enough showdown value to just check the river possibly even KJs.People seem to call 4bets very wide these days.

 

[John A]

I don't like the river bluff as the 8 doesn't improve your range because your unlikely 3betting 88 pre from the CO.Personally i like the 1/3p flop sizing in a 4bet pot.Villain can have some hands like AJ so you probably have enough showdown value to just check the river possibly even KJs.People seem to call 4bets very wide these days.

Agreed. I counted 26 bluff combos (and I'd probably even do slightly less), and 43 value combos on the river.