Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[Figaroo2]

He didn't bet the turn.. he check / called. Then checked again on the river. Does this change your analysis at all?

As far as pre, I would think you know I know why I'm getting in a pot. The guy is a fish and the blinds are nits. Not worried about being squeezed, and pretty sure I can outplay most fish at 100nl IP.

Srry my mistake,, Doh
Well it should change things, when players of this aggression level cbet they generally tend to have something and usually with good equity when called (I'm generally around this level of agg with fishy players) I'd say he was a bit weaker on the turn as a result of the check, maybe less likely to have 2 pair.
Now lets say he has the Ace of diamonds, when he picks up the nut flush draw he's not going to bet the turn against an aggressive player like you because he doesn't want to get raised off the hand. He's going to check and call and try to hit his hand as cheap as possible.
When the 4th diamond misses and he has just a pair of aces he checks to see what you do and hoping to get a cheap showdown.
These types of fish don't in my experience give up top pair very easy, even with a weakish kicker (they aint thinking about the kicker) proper fish just see a pair of aces and aint folding to a 30bb river bet, they look you up.
Pre I know why you called with the hand, I find its just easier to outplay this guys with a bit more equity, I mean how trashy are you going to get in this spot then?

 

[Aces2w1n]

Actually im siding with fig here. If fish didnt 3bet in blind i think its fine but he opened mid and we didnt open


I think john if we want to put some pressure we need straight blockers or any blockers for that matter to enhance the chance he doesnt have those hands he cant fold and generate higher chance to fold

 

[Figaroo2]

Actually im siding with fig here. If fish didnt 3bet in blind i think its fine but he opened mid and we didnt open
I think john if we want to put some pressure we need straight blockers or any blockers for that matter to enhance the chance he doesnt have those hands he cant fold and generate higher chance to fold

Straight blockers? What hands are you putting him on then?
Bearing in mind his pfr is 20%, he opens from MP, he's generally quite passive and cbets with an Ace on the flop?
At 30% aggression he's just about aggro enough to one and done with his full range on the flop so I'm not totally excluding some middling cards which connect around the lower part of the board but I still strongly favour Ax from a 20% opening range.
If his PFR was higher or he was calling a raise, or limp calling then I'd start giving him a bunch of middling suited connectors and gappers.

The question is really so can we use the threat of the flush to get the fishy player to lay down Ax. My view was its unlikely and the more of a fish they are the less likely it becomes. A weak thinking player may recognise the flush possibility and just discount it as unlikely, its really tough to get weaker players to fold pair of aces here and I probably wouldn't try. We have some showdown value with 2nd pair so we don't actually need to bluff to win, we have some chances.

 

[Aces2w1n]

I think its important to bet turn for value given what u said fig and vill should peel a lot of his draws.

I think if we had blockers this would narrow his range to whiffed broadway hands which would giveup and Ax

I think the stats arent great being 45 hands and taking it as rock solid info is wrong here fig... we really havnt seen the overall picture and id almost say hes not a reg guessing how much john prolly plays

But im more likely to do this in a steal situation and suited.. or its a fold... i never play j9o

 

[Figaroo2]

Do you double barrel here?

Aces2 sometimes you are on another planet from me. We aren't saying not bet the turn, its the river we are talking about.

So anyways just a general question about barrelling draws here in position.

poker stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players

SB: $10.57 (105.7 bb)VPIP: 18, PFR: 10, 3B: 2, AF: 1.5, Hands: 412
Hero (BB): $10 (100 bb)
MP1: $10.15 (101.5 bb)
MP2: $10.97 (109.7 bb)
MP3: $10.15 (101.5 bb)
CO: $11.24 (112.4 bb)
BTN: $7.32 (73.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K

A

5 folds, SB raises to $0.30, Hero raises to $0.90, SB calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.80) 8

Q

3

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.15, SB calls $1.15

Turn: ($4.10) T

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero??

Just generally should you double barrel this or just take the free card? I'd certainly be barreling out of position but what about in position.

 

[PokerNuts01]

Bet is ok.. but what if SB shove? I think free card is the best options here

 

[Aces2w1n]

I think if we dont bet and we hit we will leave money on the table.

I think we will dominate a lot of sb's check calling.

Def def barrelling prolly half pot....


........................

J9o river size makes sense then... we bet enough that only the nuts will raise. But yeh need more fold equity

I think id prefer if another broadway was there so we can add 2nd pair hands in his range he could fold. Since we dont 3bet vill will naturally not be so afraid of us with just an ace out there...

Yep sry sometimes i just read things wrong and when i grind heavy i am in a diff planet unfortunately its what happens to me

 

[PokerNuts01]

I think if we dont bet and we hit we will leave money on the table.

Agree. But what after check - shove? Call or fold?

 

[Aces2w1n]

If he gets that far into the hand by river

He has to have 2pair or better or translation.. a hand he wont fold or whiffed hands we dominate and will fold anyway

Id check behind river unless we make str or flush

 

[John A]

I think its important to bet turn for value given what u said fig and vill should peel a lot of his draws.

I think if we had blockers this would narrow his range to whiffed broadway hands which would giveup and Ax

I think the stats arent great being 45 hands and taking it as rock solid info is wrong here fig... we really havnt seen the overall picture and id almost say hes not a reg guessing how much john prolly plays

But im more likely to do this in a steal situation and suited.. or its a fold... i never play j9o

I'm betting the turn for value, but I already have in my mind when I'm betting that if he checks the river, I'm bluffing river. Of course he has Ax and also high pairs w/ a diamond, and I do have one blocker to AJ. My read like I said in the initial post was that he was a foldable fish. Fish can fold Ax to the right pressure. My only main question is, do I need to bet pot, slightly over, or can even less than pot do the trick.

Any ways, villain time banked and eventually called w/ 44. So if he's time banking on what should have been an easy check/call (or even bet), then he's folding his entire Ax range, his TT-KK, and maybe even some 2 pair. Do you agree?

 

[Aces2w1n]

Short answer no not against his range

If your right and took a long time perhaps a slight overbet wouldve worked. But could b tanking due to should be raising or not. Common faults we have is thinking we all think the same
.. and obv we dont

For discounts perhaps iso $6 pre... bet $4 flop and turn $10.
Then thats $20 ur risking and not getting risked at getting squeezed and people generally believe 3bets

 

[C3H6S]

interesting..but in english not like...

 

[Figaroo2]

My read like I said in the initial post was that he was a foldable fish. Fish can fold Ax to the right pressure. My only main question is, do I need to bet pot, slightly over, or can even less than pot do the trick.
Any ways, villain time banked and eventually called w/ 44. So if he's time banking on what should have been an easy check/call (or even bet), then he's folding his entire Ax range, his TT-KK, and maybe even some 2 pair. Do you agree?

44 ........smiling, makes some sense.
Well in the passive players eyes 444 still doesn't beat the flush so just like his Ax range he's checking and calling the turn hoping to improve to give him the boat and beat the flush.
When he doesn't boat from the time taken to call I agree he probably still fears the flush. Aces2 makes the point that he might have been considering raising.....hmmm not sure about that, in my experience the passive nitty tendency is not to get a lot of money in the middle without a very strong hand and a set on a 3 to a flush board is only a medium hand.
Can we get him to fold his Ax, yeah probably, this is 100nl, I'd still expect him to be a better thinking fish than a micro stakes complete beginner not folding any pair sort of fish and he has over 100bb which indicates he's won at least one hand already.
I know its only 45 hands but there must already be some clue in his wtsd% as to how much of a station he is. If you have already tagged him as foldable, presumably you have seen him fold to pressure already rather than station something.
So how much to bet to get him to fold Ax here? I honestly don't know but i'd favour a slight overbet in most cases, I don't think a big overshove achieves anything more than a smaller overbet. He either believes or he doesn't and both the shove and slight overbet are polarising enough imo.

 

[John A]

Short answer no not against his range

If your right and took a long time perhaps a slight overbet wouldve worked. But could b tanking due to should be raising or not. Common faults we have is thinking we all think the same
.. and obv we dont

For discounts perhaps iso $6 pre... bet $4 flop and turn $10.
Then thats $20 ur risking and not getting risked at getting squeezed and people generally believe 3bets

I think I've stated, written, and done videos about the bolded a few times.

But any ways... yeah man, I don't think a passive player is thinking about raising here. He almost timed downed and called.

I'm typically only ISO 3-betting pre in this spot if I have active players in the blinds, which I didn't in this case. They were both nits. But I do like ISO 3-betting a lot, as you may know.

 

[Aces2w1n]

I think I've stated, written, and done videos about the bolded a few times.

But any ways... yeah man, I don't think a passive player is thinking about raising here. He almost timed downed and called.

I'm typically only ISO 3-betting pre in this spot if I have active players in the blinds, which I didn't in this case. They were both nits. But I do like ISO 3-betting a lot, as you may know.

Yeah but 45 hands is a stretch but you have more experience and im sure ur quicker to catch on weaknesses.

So i guess the overall answer was slightly overbet in that spot.

But yeh if villain folds in that spot all the time then we can do this with atc

 

[John A]

Yeah but 45 hands is a stretch but you have more experience and im sure ur quicker to catch on weaknesses.

So i guess the overall answer was slightly overbet in that spot.

But yeh if villain folds in that spot all the time then we can do this with atc

Mmm... how many decent regs have you seen at 45/20 over 40 hands? Over 20 hands?

So the question isn't what gets him to fold 44, but what size bet gets him to fold most of his range for the risk I take right? I'm not sure an overbet gets him to fold 44 enough to justify it. I was thinking, probably 3/4 pot gets him to fold still most of his Ax range, which if we combo it up is a bulk of his range vs. the risk I'm taking correct?

 

[Aces2w1n]

Mmm... how many decent regs have you seen at 45/20 over 40 hands? Over 20 hands?

So the question isn't what gets him to fold 44, but what size bet gets him to fold most of his range for the risk I take right? I'm not sure an overbet gets him to fold 44 enough to justify it. I was thinking, probably 3/4 pot gets him to fold still most of his Ax range, which if we combo it up is a bulk of his range vs. the risk I'm taking correct?

Yep i see your point and should always consider range than specific hands.

But i often read those high bets or overbets at a desp attempt for missed value on previous streets


.......................

Whats in my arsenal is id call the turn to bluff 4 card diamond on river... i always giveup or check and use showdown value if that diamond doesnt pop up

 

[John A]

Yep i see your point and should always consider range than specific hands.

But i often read those high bets or overbets at a desp attempt for missed value on previous streets


.......................

Whats in my arsenal is id call the turn to bluff 4 card diamond on river... i always giveup or check and use showdown value if that diamond doesnt pop up

Well that would be good for my fold% then if that was the case correct?

 

[Figaroo2]

call down or raise somewhere?

Would it have been better to raise at some point here or are we just happy that he's betting for us. Fishy and his AF is pretty low at 1.6 so he has something.

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $22.85 (228.5 bb)
BB: $10 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $8.55 (85.5 bb)VPIP: 29, PFR: 8, 3B: 4, AF: 1.6, Hands: 63
MP1: $5.18 (51.8 bb)
MP2: $10 (100 bb)
Hero (MP3): $10 (100 bb)
CO: $10 (100 bb)
BTN: $10.76 (107.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q

Q

UTG+2 calls $0.10, MP1 calls $0.10, MP2 folds, Hero raises to $0.55, 4 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.45, MP1 folds

Flop: ($1.35) 8

9

5

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $0.70, Hero calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.75) J

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $1.30, Hero calls $1.30

River: ($5.35) 2

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $3.30, Hero calls $3.30

I just found it tough to raise here after his limp call and the board smacking his range.

 

[Aces2w1n]

Would it have been better to raise at some point here or are we just happy that he's betting for us. Fishy and his AF is pretty low at 1.6 so he has something.

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $22.85 (228.5 bb)
BB: $10 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $8.55 (85.5 bb)VPIP: 29, PFR: 8, 3B: 4, AF: 1.6, Hands: 63
MP1: $5.18 (51.8 bb)
MP2: $10 (100 bb)
Hero (MP3): $10 (100 bb)
CO: $10 (100 bb)
BTN: $10.76 (107.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q

Q

UTG+2 calls $0.10, MP1 calls $0.10, MP2 folds, Hero raises to $0.55, 4 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.45, MP1 folds

Flop: ($1.35) 8

9

5

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $0.70, Hero calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.75) J

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $1.30, Hero calls $1.30

River: ($5.35) 2

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $3.30, Hero calls $3.30

I just found it tough to raise here after his limp call and the board smacking his range.

Probably best line to take is raise turn and check behind on rivers.

This way we can fold out better and get worse to call and at a cheaper price than when we call the river bet.

Its in the audio book how to play good poker heh

If he raises then we can jam or fold considering your read on your opponent and tendencies.

If he bets into you on river you know 99% of the time your toast

 

[John A]

Would it have been better to raise at some point here or are we just happy that he's betting for us. Fishy and his AF is pretty low at 1.6 so he has something.

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $22.85 (228.5 bb)
BB: $10 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $8.55 (85.5 bb)VPIP: 29, PFR: 8, 3B: 4, AF: 1.6, Hands: 63
MP1: $5.18 (51.8 bb)
MP2: $10 (100 bb)
Hero (MP3): $10 (100 bb)
CO: $10 (100 bb)
BTN: $10.76 (107.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q

Q

UTG+2 calls $0.10, MP1 calls $0.10, MP2 folds, Hero raises to $0.55, 4 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.45, MP1 folds

Flop: ($1.35) 8

9

5

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $0.70, Hero calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.75) J

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $1.30, Hero calls $1.30

River: ($5.35) 2

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $3.30, Hero calls $3.30

I just found it tough to raise here after his limp call and the board smacking his range.

Hits his range, but still it's a second best range from yours. He's betting 1/2 pot on that board into you. I'd raise the flop at this level most of the time.

Turn, now connects with some of his draw range, but not his limp/call range. I'd raise again.

River, I would probably shove. Your hand looks like a missed draw now, and you can probably get a lot of hero calls especially w/ what he has left.

A lot of missed value here for sure.

 

[Aces2w1n]

PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BB): $7.44
UTG: $4.48 (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 15.10, 3Bet Preflop: 3.75, Hands: 250)
MP: $5.00 (VPIP: 15.80, PFR: 12.13, 3Bet Preflop: 5.01, Hands: 1,539)
CO: $5.00 (VPIP: 33.96, PFR: 22.64, 3Bet Preflop: 10.53, Hands: 56)
BTN: $8.54 (VPIP: 25.64, PFR: 15.38, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, Hands: 39)
SB: $4.36 (VPIP: 26.47, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 35)

SB posts SB $0.02, Hero posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has T:spade: T:heart:

fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.15, fold, Hero raises to $0.45, BTN calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.92, 2 players) 9:spade: T:diamond: J:club:
Hero bets $0.67, BTN calls $0.67

Turn: ($2.26, 2 players) K:spade:
Hero bets $1.65, BTN calls $1.65

River: ($5.56, 2 players) Q:diamond:


Hero????

 

[braveslice]

He is going to give you a lecture about hiding stats and reads

 

[Alucard]

Hello! This is my first time posting in this thread. I'm quite new to online poker and it's been a very volatile road for me so far. good upswings & very bad downswings as well. There's a lot to learn of course.
I'd appreciate any help offered from anyone very much

Here blind vs blind. After the flop bet I put him pretty much in Ace high range since he snap bet both flop & turn. My intention was to catch the draw but as you can see I did miss it. But I turned it into a bluff and raised him making him think I caught a straight or perhaps a set as well. I think it's not very likely he has two pair or he'd have raised more on the turn. Likely A2,A3 . What do you think of this hand?

pokerstars - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 30.43, PFR: 26.09, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 23)
Hero (SB): 103.5 BB
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
UTG: 96 BB (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 14.81, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 28)
MP: 171 BB (VPIP: 20.97, PFR: 11.29, 3Bet Preflop: 4.00, Hands: 65)
CO: 214 BB (VPIP: 47.62, PFR: 19.05, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 23)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 6c 5d
fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.5 BB, BB calls 1.5 BB

Flop : (5 BB, 2 players) Ad 4c 7h
Hero checks, BB bets 3 BB, Hero calls 3 BB

Turn : (11 BB, 2 players) 5s
Hero checks, BB bets 3.5 BB, Hero raises to 11 BB, fold

Hero wins 17.5 BB

 

[Alucard]

And here's another one. I'm not exactly sure 4 betting would give me the maximum value out of aces. Isn't in better to slow play and get more chips from the villain if possible? Specially from nitty players?

PokerStars - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

MP: 48 BB (VPIP: 25.33, PFR: 17.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 77)
CO: 101.5 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
BTN: 189 BB (VPIP: 13.04, PFR: 13.04, 3Bet Preflop: 22.22, Hands: 25)
SB: 50 BB (VPIP: 9.52, PFR: 9.52, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 22)
Hero (BB): 172 BB
UTG: 100 BB (VPIP: 11.11, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Ah As
fold, fold, CO raises to 3 BB, BTN raises to 10.5 BB, fold, Hero raises to 28 BB, fold, fold

Hero wins 24.5 BB