Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

John A · Oct 31, 2013

vinylspiros said:
Sounds good. Gonna be focusing on plugging those leaks you noticed and hopefully things will start to look better.

Time(hands ) will tell. Again thank you.

You're welcome. You have a solid game. I'll share in here one thing we talked about, that I tend to see at around your stakes a lot. Hope you don't mind me sharing. Very common typical thing that happens.

Turn play. Players get to the turn with marginal hands, and then aren't sure what they should be doing, and more importantly why they should. I'll give a specific example from a hand we looked at. This is from memory so it may not be perfect, but it illustrates the point pretty well regardless. I think there was about 80+ bb efffective stacks.

X player limps, Hero has AdAh on the button and raises, and gets the hand heads up versus X limper.

Flop comes: Ts Th 8s

X limper checks, Hero bets, X limper calls.

Turn: Qs

X limper checks, hero checks.

I see this kind of hand/play a lot. The question you need to be asking yourself on the turn though is the following:

1) If I check this turn, am I planning on turning my hand into a bluff catcher?
1a) If I am checking to turn it into a bluff catcher, is my opponent capable of bluffing?

2) If my opponent isn't capable of bluffing, can he over value worse hands if he bets the river? If the answer is yes, then you should not be turning your hand into a bluff catcher, you should be betting the turn.

3) Can I bet my hand for value? Are there worse hands that can call? If your opponent is incapable of bluffing when you're in narrow EV spots on the turn, then you should bet for value on the turn because there's no difference between betting the turn, or calling the river except you lose value from the drawing range of your opponents hand.

4) If your opponent (who in a similar case like this, is likely passive), calls a turn bet by you, and then bets the river a reasonable size, or shoves, then you can easily fold.

But the primary question in spots like this is:
If I check this turn, am I planning on turning my hand into a bluff catcher?

Know why you are checking or betting. Not only what cards you want to see, or don't want to see, but have a firm grasp of why you're making the decision that you're making.

In this case, we should have been betting the turn because we do have narrow +EV, and we don't have any info that says our opponent will bluff at a reasonable frequency to give away our narrow equity on the turn.

vinylspiros · Oct 31, 2013

^^^^^ so in this example, if we bet turn and villains goes over the top,we fold correct?

And if he flats and leads out on river what is the best action? ( does it depend on how much he bets river)????

Also if he flats and doesnt lead river do we go for thin value?

John A · Oct 31, 2013

vinylspiros said:
^^^^^ so in this example, if we bet turn and villains goes over the top,we fold correct?

And if he flats and leads out on river what is the best action? ( does it depend on how much he bets river)????

Also if he flats and doesnt lead river do we go for thin value?

I answered some of those above..

1) You fold
2) You usually fold, but it depends on his sizing
3) And yes, usually you'd bet for value on the river since a bad player is capable of c/cing with 8x, and Qx. Then if you get shoved on, and even if you're getting 5:1 or better you can fold.

vinylspiros · Oct 31, 2013

John A said:
I answered some of those above..

1) You fold
2) You usually fold, but it depends on his sizing
3) And yes, usually you'd bet for value on the river since a bad player is capable of c/cing with 8x, and Qx. Then if you get shoved on, and even if you're getting 5:1 or better you can fold.

Roger that. Thnks alot. I know we talked about this spot but i just wanted to get it more clear. So yea, thanks again. This spot comes up quite often or similar ones and its good to know what action is best in these "weird" spots.

And after looking at the hand again , it is clear now how betting turn has way more benefits than checking and turning our hand into a bluff catcher. We lose one street of value with his draws and we might not get paid on river anyhow. also we dont get information on villains holding. when he flats here ,it doesnt really look Uber strong now does it. Problem is if hes getting trappy. But i guess the majority of the time he just has worse which is why it is the best move in the long run. esp IP.

sidgucci · Oct 31, 2013

John A said:
Free coaching. I'm pretty good, so you might learn something.

Liked on Facebook --- sorry for missing the free coaching session this evening. I'm back in Jacksonville grinding the cash games and getting ready for WPT Event #1 tomorrow. Anyone want a piece? You can look me up on wsop.com & Hendon Mob --- David Sidler.

Can't wait to apply this additional knowledge to my MTT play.

sidgucci · Oct 31, 2013

John A said:
Agreed.

The primary point about why I'm here doing this on Cardschat is because I want to help CC become the poker forum leader. I want to expose people to our brand and products, because I genuinely know they will help players. Lastly, I just enjoy helping and teaching because it's a great way to become better yourself. I think some people think, someone teaches because they can't do. However, I've found that it's a primary reason I've become so good. If I have to teach someone about narrow turn fold equity, I better know and understand exactly what I'm saying and teaching. It pushes me to become better.

John, if I had the bankroll I would certainly want to hire you as my personal coach. I'm here in JAX for the WPT so if I can get deep in a tourney and secure any decent score, you can count on me as your next student. I have a lot of respect for what you already know and your passion for teaching others. I have the same passion for learning and becoming an improved poker player.

vinylspiros · Oct 31, 2013

Ok john, here is a hand that i played just now that reminds me of the one where there is a flush on the turn but we continue to bet cause he calls with worse alot of the times.

Did i play this poorly?

rPokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - pokerstars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturniver.com

Hero (Button) ($6.44)
SB ($5.96)
BB ($5)
UTG ($4.63)
MP ($5.02)
CO ($5.28)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5

, 5

3 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, 1 fold, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.32) 6

, K

, 9

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.20, BB calls $0.20

Turn: ($0.72) 5

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.40, BB calls $0.40

River: ($1.52) 7

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.28, BB raises to $2.75, Hero folds... We clearly fold here as he is almost never bluffing with worse than a set on such a wet board right? I mean the flush is a possibility but although it came up on turn i continued to barrel putting him on some kind of Kx hand that failed to believe i have the flush either.

But on river this gets really ugly. Regardless of the result,this is the line we want to be taking right? I mean the line you describe in the example above with the aces.

sidgucci · Oct 31, 2013

sitting here at JAX Best Bet working on my game off the felt and the tought came to me.........

remember the statement --- "there's an App for that"

As we are discussing the TURN scenario above, I am getting ready to dive in Holdem Manager and my Leak Buster app and was curious......

is "There a LB FILTER for THAT"

You could market "Filter for That" as a marketing statement on poker player shirts to create some inquiries at the live poker tables. It's inevitable that someone will ask what does "There's a Filter for That" mean and it would get the poker players talking about your products and spread the word. I know that's what you are striving to accomplish and with this message printed on hats/tshirts it could help promote your brand.

John A · Oct 31, 2013

sidgucci said:
John, if I had the bankroll I would certainly want to hire you as my personal coach. I'm here in JAX for the WPT so if I can get deep in a tourney and secure any decent score, you can count on me as your next student. I have a lot of respect for what you already know and your passion for teaching others. I have the same passion for learning and becoming an improved poker player.

Thanx... I appreciate it that. GL in the WPT. Those are usually fun tournaments.

John A · Oct 31, 2013

vinylspiros said:
Ok john, here is a hand that i played just now that reminds me of the one where there is a flush on the turn but we continue to bet cause he calls with worse alot of the times.

Did i play this poorly?

rPokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturniver.com

Hero (Button) ($6.44)
SB ($5.96)
BB ($5)
UTG ($4.63)
MP ($5.02)
CO ($5.28)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5

, 5

3 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, 1 fold, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.32) 6

, K

, 9

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.20, BB calls $0.20

Turn: ($0.72) 5

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.40, BB calls $0.40

River: ($1.52) 7

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.28, BB raises to $2.75, Hero folds... We clearly fold here as he is almost never bluffing with worse than a set on such a wet board right? I mean the flush is a possibility but although it came up on turn i continued to barrel putting him on some kind of Kx hand that failed to believe i have the flush either.

But on river this gets really ugly. Regardless of the result,this is the line we want to be taking right? I mean the line you describe in the example above with the aces.

Yeah, you played it fine. I'd probably bet a little more on the turn, and a little less on the river, because we are trying to get Kx to make a crying call. Generally speaking though, the 7 on the river hits his range pretty hard, and makes it hard to get value from Kx. Any other card but a 7, 8 or diamond and it's a very simple VB on the river.

You can't be worried about a 3rd flush hitting the turn. It's a small part of his overall range. It's mostly going to be Kx, 9x, straight draws, gutshots, etc.. that's most of his range, so it's very standard to bet that turn. The river is a little tight. We'd generally want some stats/info. It's not horrible if he's a true loose passive, but it's still pretty thin.

Did you play some non-zoom tables?

John A · Oct 31, 2013

sidgucci said:
sitting here at JAX Best Bet working on my game off the felt and the tought came to me.........

remember the statement --- "there's an APP for that"

As we are discussing the TURN scenario above, I am getting ready to dive in Holdem Manager and my Leak Buster app and was curious......

is "There a LB FILTER for THAT"

You could market "Filter for That" as a marketing statement on poker player shirts to create some inquiries at the live poker tables. It's inevitable that someone will ask what does "There's a Filter for That" mean and it would get the poker players talking about your products and spread the word. I know that's what you are striving to accomplish and with this message printed on hats/tshirts it could help promote your brand.

Yes, there are tons of turn filters.

But yeah, I like the idea, thanks. This next version of LB that's coming out is going to have so many things in it that I've been waiting to get in. There's newer deeper level analysis that's going to blow away even the top pros at what it finds in their games. Once LB 4.0 comes out, we're going to ramp up the marketing quite a bit. It's going to become THE tool to have, if it isn't already.

Again, I like the idea though, thanks!

vinylspiros · Nov 1, 2013

John A said:
Yeah, you played it fine. I'd probably bet a little more on the turn, and a little less on the river, because we are trying to get Kx to make a crying call. Generally speaking though, the 7 on the river hits his range pretty hard, and makes it hard to get value from Kx. Any other card but a 7, 8 or diamond and it's a very simple VB on the river.

You can't be worried about a 3rd flush hitting the turn. It's a small part of his overall range. It's mostly going to be Kx, 9x, straight draws, gutshots, etc.. that's most of his range, so it's very standard to bet that turn. The river is a little tight. We'd generally want some stats/info. It's not horrible if he's a true loose passive, but it's still pretty thin.

Did you play some non-zoom tables?

Not yet, im going to be starting today since its the first of the month. Im going to try and play NON-ZOOM tables strictly for the first two weeks of November to see if there is any difference in my winrate despite the fact that my volume will be cut in half to say the least. I want to see how normal speed 6max feels like and if i can maybe pick up some reads on the players.

John A · Nov 1, 2013

vinylspiros said:
Not yet, im going to be starting today since its the first of the month. Im going to try and play NON-ZOOM tables strictly for the first two weeks of November to see if there is any difference in my winrate despite the fact that my volume will be cut in half to say the least. I want to see how normal speed 6max feels like and if i can maybe pick up some reads on the players.

Alright.... let's see how it rolls. Keep me updated.

John A · Nov 1, 2013

I want to touch on this, even if we backtrack a little. I'm posting my PFR UO stats. We talked about this with Vinyl in his coaching, but making sure your pre-flop game is perfect, will have HUGE impacts on your bottom line. This is how you want yours to look:

Everyone is welcome to post theirs for feedback/comments. But when you're making really good pre-flop decisions, your numbers should start to look similar to those above. That's only one half, and cold calling like we've been talking about can be the more critical part. But this is where you want to start.

sidgucci · Nov 2, 2013

John A said:
Yes, there are tons of turn filters. But yeah, I like the idea, thanks. This next version of LB that's coming out is going to have so many things in it that I've been waiting to get in. There's newer deeper level analysis that's going to blow away even the top pros at what it finds in their games. Once LB 4.0 comes out, we're going to ramp up the marketing quite a bit. It's going to become THE tool to have, if it isn't already.

Again, I like the idea though, thanks!

Let me know if you're looking for a marketing guy --- I'm a forrmer Marriott National Account Executive. Another line you can you is ...."Filter This!!" Really looking forward to the workbook and LB 4.0 ---- do you have an estimated release date?

sidgucci · Nov 2, 2013

John A said:
I want to touch on this, even if we backtrack a little. I'm posting my PFR UO stats. We talked about this with Vinyl in his coaching, but making sure your pre-flop game is perfect, will have HUGE impacts on your bottom line. This is how you want yours to look:

Everyone is welcome to post theirs for feedback/comments. But when you're making really good pre-flop decisions, your numbers should start to look similar to those above. That's only one half, and cold calling like we've been talking about can be the more critical part. But this is where you want to start.

sidGucci
Hands: 31,792
bb/100: <7.05>

Misdir · Nov 2, 2013

I downloaded your free poker-E-book and signed up for the online seminar but never received an email. I will attempt to do this once again. Please respond. Thank you.

John A · Nov 3, 2013

Looking good. Shoot I should have mentioned mine was 6-max. Not that it makes a huge difference. This is 6-max also? Normal, zoom?

So obviously, button range needs to increase at least 10%. Cutoff could come up a little bit too safely. At micro and small stakes, you can really abuse the pre-flop positional awareness stat without really an repercussions, so I'd take full advantage of this. Get this well over 3.5, and even as high as 4. Looks pretty decent though, but if you did those things you'd kill it even more.

sidgucci said:
sidGucci
Hands: 31,792
bb/100: <7.05>

John A · Nov 3, 2013

Cali1x said:
I downloaded your free Poker-E-book and signed up for the online seminar but never received an email. I will attempt to do this once again. Please respond. Thank you.

Online seminar is over. If you mean you didn't get the e-book, double check your junk/spam folders. They are automatically sent out.

sidgucci · Nov 3, 2013

John A said:
Looking good. Shoot I should have mentioned mine was 6-max. Not that it makes a huge difference. This is 6-max also? Normal, zoom?

So obviously, button range needs to increase at least 10%. Cutoff could come up a little bit too safely. At micro and small stakes, you can really abuse the pre-flop positional awareness stat without really an repercussions, so I'd take full advantage of this. Get this well over 3.5, and even as high as 4. Looks pretty decent though, but if you did those things you'd kill it even more.

Thanks so much for the feedback, John. My stats reflect the 6-max .05/.10 normal cash game on America's Card Room. I'm very grateful for all your support and contribution to those of us with big dreams and aspirations.

Figaroo2 · Nov 3, 2013

Having problems getting my stats out of HM2 in a readable format anyway here are some of my stats for Oct.. Any comments welcome. this is all for full ring tables between 1-2c up to 10-25c
Total Hands 18138, Net Won USD $100.20, bb/100 14.25 ,VPIP 20.52, PFR 10.81, 3Bet 3.76, WTSD% 27.3, W$SD% 47.1, Button UO PFR 35.7, Cutoff UO PFR 23.02,SB UO PFR 42.92, Preflop Positional awareness 3.66
Clearly I could be playing plenty more from the button...i usually draw the line on the button at nothing weaker than J8, looks like that is too conservative.

John A · Nov 4, 2013

sidgucci said:
Thanks so much for the feedback, John. My stats reflect the 6-max .05/.10 normal cash game on America's Card Room. I'm very grateful for all your support and contribution to those of us with big dreams and aspirations.

Yeah, you're welcome, of course. Thanks for your suggestions. If you know of anyone who can do book covers, let me know.

John A · Nov 4, 2013

Figaroo2 said:
Having problems getting my stats out of HM2 in a readable format anyway here are some of my stats for Oct.. Any comments welcome. this is all for full ring tables between 1-2c up to 10-25c
Total Hands 18138, Net Won USD $100.20, bb/100 14.25 ,VPIP 20.52, PFR 10.81, 3Bet 3.76, WTSD% 27.3, W$SD% 47.1, Button UO PFR 35.7, Cutoff UO PFR 23.02,SB UO PFR 42.92, Preflop Positional awareness 3.66
Clearly I could be playing plenty more from the button...i usually draw the line on the button at nothing weaker than J8, looks like that is too conservative.

You just need to screen capture it.

VPIP ratio is really bad... you should be 70%+ and you're about 50%. And like you said, open more from the button. Right now you're opening more from the SB than the button. You have to get through 2 people on the button, BUT you have position. So pretty important to flop those numbers.

John A · Nov 4, 2013

Any ways, this part of your pre-flop game is the easiest to get down. Cold calling, 3-betting, and 4-betting ranges are more difficult. So make this like building a good house. Get this part down 100% first, then move on to the next part (cold calling ranges).

Aleksei · Nov 5, 2013

John A said:
You're welcome. You have a solid game. I'll share in here one thing we talked about, that I tend to see at around your stakes a lot. Hope you don't mind me sharing. Very common typical thing that happens.

Turn play. Players get to the turn with marginal hands, and then aren't sure what they should be doing, and more importantly why they should. I'll give a specific example from a hand we looked at. This is from memory so it may not be perfect, but it illustrates the point pretty well regardless. I think there was about 80+ bb efffective stacks.

X player limps, Hero has AdAh on the button and raises, and gets the hand heads up versus X limper.

Flop comes: Ts Th 8s

X limper checks, Hero bets, X limper calls.

Turn: Qs

X limper checks, hero checks.

I see this kind of hand/play a lot. The question you need to be asking yourself on the turn though is the following:

1) If I check this turn, am I planning on turning my hand into a bluff catcher?
1a) If I am checking to turn it into a bluff catcher, is my opponent capable of bluffing?

2) If my opponent isn't capable of bluffing, can he over value worse hands if he bets the river? If the answer is yes, then you should not be turning your hand into a bluff catcher, you should be betting the turn.

3) Can I bet my hand for value? Are there worse hands that can call? If your opponent is incapable of bluffing when you're in narrow EV spots on the turn, then you should bet for value on the turn because there's no difference between betting the turn, or calling the river except you lose value from the drawing range of your opponents hand.

4) If your opponent (who in a similar case like this, is likely passive), calls a turn bet by you, and then bets the river a reasonable size, or shoves, then you can easily fold.

But the primary question in spots like this is:
If I check this turn, am I planning on turning my hand into a bluff catcher?

Know why you are checking or betting. Not only what cards you want to see, or don't want to see, but have a firm grasp of why you're making the decision that you're making.

In this case, we should have been betting the turn because we do have narrow +EV, and we don't have any info that says our opponent will bluff at a reasonable frequency to give away our narrow equity on the turn.

Imo if I'm up vs a limper I'm gonna assume AA is usually still good enough to bet a 3flush turn, barring other reads.Flushes in 3flush boards aren't that common.

Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

John A

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vinylspiros

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John A

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vinylspiros

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sidgucci

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vinylspiros

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sidgucci

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John A

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John A

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sidgucci

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Misdir

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John A

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