Mr Sandbag
Legend
Silver Level
This doesn't matter though.
Live Grind: How to Fall Asleep at the Table (Without Getting Caught)
This doesn't matter though.
Figaroo2
Legend
Bronze Level
Could he also be doing this with AK AQ of diamonds?
The fact that he just calls preflop suggests he's not superstrong. If he had KK in the SB with you to act I'd expect him to bump it up to get rid on any Ax hands you might have and value out of your JJ QQ.
TT JJ QQ make a lot of sense, they are too strong to toss away here in the SB pre.
Smells of TT but if I was him I'd probably ship the overcard diamond hands as well figuring there is a ton of FE and plenty of equity if I get called.
Its got to be down to your read of the guy at the table at the time
The fact that he just calls preflop suggests he's not superstrong. If he had KK in the SB with you to act I'd expect him to bump it up to get rid on any Ax hands you might have and value out of your JJ QQ.
TT JJ QQ make a lot of sense, they are too strong to toss away here in the SB pre.
Smells of TT but if I was him I'd probably ship the overcard diamond hands as well figuring there is a ton of FE and plenty of equity if I get called.
Its got to be down to your read of the guy at the table at the time
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Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
Yeah FWIW I think fold is fine. I feel like he probably has a set. It is just too much to call off IMO.
He sometimes shows up with JJ-KK, but I think more often he has sets or nut draws (that have equity).
That's alot of bigs to risk with one pair.
He sometimes shows up with JJ-KK, but I think more often he has sets or nut draws (that have equity).
That's alot of bigs to risk with one pair.
M
Marginal
Junior Member
Silver Level
It does.
If you fold this flop you pretty much have 0% call range on flop which then should lead us to ask, why are we c betting
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
There is some merit to checking back flop maybe, but I definitely didn't expect him to x/ship much of anything because it's just such a massive move. If anything, he should flat with all his sets b/c he maxes fold equity by x/shipping. But if he wants to "balance" his otherwise bluff-heavy x/shipping range then I guess him shipping sets makes sense.
Just seems weird to take this line when he's mega strong because in such a bloated pot it's hard for there to be realistic action killers more than a small % of the time.
Fwiw, at the time I absolutely put TT in his range, but wasn't so sure about 66 or 33, and I thought for sure he could have AKdd, not really know what to do with it, and just ship it, etc. Questionable whether he really ever has worse than that, but I actually thought KK was a pretty reasonably likely hand, and a hand he's very likely to want to x/ship since if I have QQ or JJ or even AK there is a higher chance of "scare" cards or bad beats coming when he doesn't just ship it.
An interesting question I think is whether calling pre with TT- is even profitable for him here, assuming he can only set-mine vs my range, which seems reasonable. AK actually IS in my range here, but he can't really hero with like TT or worse in any spot on any board without a set.
Just seems weird to take this line when he's mega strong because in such a bloated pot it's hard for there to be realistic action killers more than a small % of the time.
Fwiw, at the time I absolutely put TT in his range, but wasn't so sure about 66 or 33, and I thought for sure he could have AKdd, not really know what to do with it, and just ship it, etc. Questionable whether he really ever has worse than that, but I actually thought KK was a pretty reasonably likely hand, and a hand he's very likely to want to x/ship since if I have QQ or JJ or even AK there is a higher chance of "scare" cards or bad beats coming when he doesn't just ship it.
An interesting question I think is whether calling pre with TT- is even profitable for him here, assuming he can only set-mine vs my range, which seems reasonable. AK actually IS in my range here, but he can't really hero with like TT or worse in any spot on any board without a set.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Well he's not some 1/2 random-fish, but I suppose not. He had 66 and we brick, ldo. He hits his 10%, we brick ours. Nice, little 2.8k pot or so.
I managed to sit out two orbits after that and then force myself to go home, but it def hurt in the moment. Particularly because in some of the convo after he was just saying completely retarded shit, like I'm pretty sure he had no idea the actual amount of the effective stacks, and also his reasoning for x/shipping the turn was idiotic. He said he was trying to "give the least info." Yah, okay, least info but theoretically maximizing fold equity. Particularly seems bad when my whole range has to ship most turn cards.
But w/e, only lost $200 on the night, blah blah, went to Poto and dumped another $700, but what else is new. At this point if I'm not dumping $1k+ on the weekend it's not a poker weekend lol.
J
Jzona1
Rising Star
Bronze Level
I don't think it's a bad call but it's probably close. I don't understand his flop play at all what is he possibly afraid of you improving to that beats him? He's really in the perfect spot you have a hand you are going to barrel at least two streets so much of the time and almost no room to improve.
If you say he is a good player the only thing I'm putting him on that beats me is 10's. With 6's out of position with a hand that is flipping at best to the shove and with rake it's such a loss. If you are limping UTG you either are folding or have him crushed. So really his only line is the one he took I guess it works if he can get you to call a huge over shove with an over pair like you did but many players are going to fold there.
If you say he didn't know the effective stacks surely he thought you had less and that makes his post flop and especially pre-flop play that much worse. I think you should rethink your assessment of this players skill.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
indeed.
Agreed, and a really good point. Can't remember if I said this before, but I iso'd QJo vs his EP open limp and we went 3 ways to Q86r flop and I opted to check back. Turn was 3 bringing a BDFD and I bet $45 and same villain was only caller. River 7 brings backdoor flush, and he checks. I bet $138 and he tank looked me up with 99.
He's absolutely willing to call down wide, and it totally makes sense that we can exploit that even more since he's taking pure aggro lines with the effective nuts in spot where he could flat and still stack us 90% of the time.
I think it's much less about him being afraid of anything and more about him trying to confuse me in this case. But I can only really say that after the fact - I actually think he may have been worried about me shutting down and him losing value. Or in the moment his heart beat out of his chest cause he flopped a set in the biggest pot he will see this month against an obvious overpair, and he didn't really think much about calling lol.
I absolutely did not put him on 66 or 33 at the time, but now I know that's all in his range even in VERY thin (or marginally -EV) preflop set-mining spots.
But for what it's worth, I don't consider his shove to be an over-shove. It's for a hair under pot, and we are both thinking in terms of pot size, more or less (I think he's estimating at the table a bit more than I am tbh). It's also entirely possible he guesstimated and thought I had more, or just wasn't thinking too much about it, saw "we're DEEP" and called pre. Can't really know for sure I guess
On a slightly different note, I had a coaching session (I was being coached) yesterday. I debated even mentioning this in the thread - in b4 "lawl, matt suckz so mch at teh pokerz dat he nedz a coch" - but meh, whatever.
Bit of a one time opportunity, as it's a guy who doesn't do a whole lot of coaching anymore. Didn't think of this but I have no clue if he cares about me talking about this so I'll ask before randomly dropping his name - you likely haven't heard of him though, particularly if you only play online.
Anyway first interaction went well, and I'm excited to play some hands so we can talk about them next time. We talked a lot about what I think my biggest leaks are this week, and he was somewhat surprised when I said that it was unequivocally tilt. So we're going to be working on some strategies and stops that will be in place while I'm playing to help prevent the worst of it, which I think will inherently make it easier to work on fixing more of the root cause stuff.
Not to mention stopping the landslide that is my current live graph.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Well, the Saga of the Downswing continues. My normal Friday night game did not run, which was actually okay because I hung out with my girlfriend and got enough sleep, etc. But then on Saturday afternoon I drove out to Milwaukee to play some 2/5 at Poto.
I got sat at the same new table that was opening with the friend I had driven over with. The table was friendly enough, and particularly as time went on, was quite good in terms of softness. Over the next 10 and a half hours though, I managed to go on the worst string of run bad I have ever encountered.
I made several large mistakes in this time, which I think accounted for about $500 worth of my loss in total. This is nothing to be ignored, and I've reviewed a lot of my hands since then, but that amount pales in comparison to the whopping $3.5k I managed to lose over the course of the session. Virtually every showdown I made it to, it seemed somebody had a boat. The two times I got it all in with kings I was at least breaking even but I got scooped both times. I ran bad preflop, with almost no playable hands aside from a few PP's, and with those I didn't flop sets. The only pot I won that was over $200 was one where I over-flatted an open to $25 and two calls with KQ, the SB short stack shoved $125 total, and it folded back to me. Getting 2.25 to 1, I decided to call. I managed to run down QQ with a straight on JT8 4 9. The SB was my friend, and probably the only one I would have called against, given he can easily be shoving wider in that spot to pick up a dead money overlay.
Suffice it to say, I wasn't exactly pleased. But the weird thing is, I actually didn't really tilt. In the couple days following, I've reflected a lot on some of the hands I misplayed, and I really wasn't pleased with having my first ever -7 BI session at 2/5, but in the moment I didn't blow up. Even with 4 trips to an ATM, I didn't crazy tilt. Before each rebuy, I asked myself some questions.
"Am I tired?"
"How am I feeling?"
"Is this game soft?"
"In my current state, do I rate to win?"
The answers always culminated in the final question, with a resounding "yes." So I kept playing. And no matter the result, I'm really proud that I never once shipped my money in on tilt because I "wanted to go home" or to spite anyone, or put myself out of my misery. I played solid, I ran shitty, and had the worst and maybe also best session of my life.
I got sat at the same new table that was opening with the friend I had driven over with. The table was friendly enough, and particularly as time went on, was quite good in terms of softness. Over the next 10 and a half hours though, I managed to go on the worst string of run bad I have ever encountered.
I made several large mistakes in this time, which I think accounted for about $500 worth of my loss in total. This is nothing to be ignored, and I've reviewed a lot of my hands since then, but that amount pales in comparison to the whopping $3.5k I managed to lose over the course of the session. Virtually every showdown I made it to, it seemed somebody had a boat. The two times I got it all in with kings I was at least breaking even but I got scooped both times. I ran bad preflop, with almost no playable hands aside from a few PP's, and with those I didn't flop sets. The only pot I won that was over $200 was one where I over-flatted an open to $25 and two calls with KQ, the SB short stack shoved $125 total, and it folded back to me. Getting 2.25 to 1, I decided to call. I managed to run down QQ with a straight on JT8 4 9. The SB was my friend, and probably the only one I would have called against, given he can easily be shoving wider in that spot to pick up a dead money overlay.
Suffice it to say, I wasn't exactly pleased. But the weird thing is, I actually didn't really tilt. In the couple days following, I've reflected a lot on some of the hands I misplayed, and I really wasn't pleased with having my first ever -7 BI session at 2/5, but in the moment I didn't blow up. Even with 4 trips to an ATM, I didn't crazy tilt. Before each rebuy, I asked myself some questions.
"Am I tired?"
"How am I feeling?"
"Is this game soft?"
"In my current state, do I rate to win?"
The answers always culminated in the final question, with a resounding "yes." So I kept playing. And no matter the result, I'm really proud that I never once shipped my money in on tilt because I "wanted to go home" or to spite anyone, or put myself out of my misery. I played solid, I ran shitty, and had the worst and maybe also best session of my life.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
That's a pretty brutal session. I am glad you were able to still play well.
That is one of the hurdles most players can not clear - playing solid even when they are losing. Well done.
Totally unrelated side note:
I ran into Chris Moneymaker at Greektown about 5 days ago. He was on his way out, and I was walking in, about 2:30am.
I was flabbergasted. I have never met anyone famous in my life.
I believe my exact words were:
"Holy cow man!!!" after I realized it was in fact him, and I wasn't seeing things.
I extended my hand and said "It is a pleasure to meet you sir."
He shook my hand. I can't remember what he said exactly, but something about being tired and going to sleep soon.
When I sat down, it was in the seat he played in. Apparently, he lost about $1700 in an hour or two. He left with $300.
It really picked my spirits up. I played very well, read hands very well, etc.
And FWIW, I think I played with Nick Abou Risk also. He finished 7xnd in the 15 wsop ME.
Some dude on my table said he is on TV.
I asked this guy, "Are you F***ing with me?"
He said "no man, he is on TV".
He tried to run me over twice. Once when I held J-6 on a 6-10-7-7-2 board, he bet $133 OTR. His story didn't make sense, so I called. My 6 was good.
Another time he tried to bet big OTR when I held trip jacks with and 8 kicker, and I once again thought I was best. I called board was K-J-J-9-6 3 to a flush on river. He held AK. I bet flop, he donked turn, to which I flatted. He donked river for $103, and I called. I made him show.
I did not know who he was (or who I think he is, not sure). He had like 2 grand at a 1/2 max stack game, and he played very well.
It wasn't until I got home, I watched WSOP, and recognized him.
Great night. I think I only won about $250 in a few hours, which was small considering all the action.
Anyways. That is all.
That is one of the hurdles most players can not clear - playing solid even when they are losing. Well done.
Totally unrelated side note:
I ran into Chris Moneymaker at Greektown about 5 days ago. He was on his way out, and I was walking in, about 2:30am.
I was flabbergasted. I have never met anyone famous in my life.
I believe my exact words were:
"Holy cow man!!!" after I realized it was in fact him, and I wasn't seeing things.
I extended my hand and said "It is a pleasure to meet you sir."
He shook my hand. I can't remember what he said exactly, but something about being tired and going to sleep soon.
When I sat down, it was in the seat he played in. Apparently, he lost about $1700 in an hour or two. He left with $300.
It really picked my spirits up. I played very well, read hands very well, etc.
And FWIW, I think I played with Nick Abou Risk also. He finished 7xnd in the 15 wsop ME.
Some dude on my table said he is on TV.
I asked this guy, "Are you F***ing with me?"
He said "no man, he is on TV".
He tried to run me over twice. Once when I held J-6 on a 6-10-7-7-2 board, he bet $133 OTR. His story didn't make sense, so I called. My 6 was good.
Another time he tried to bet big OTR when I held trip jacks with and 8 kicker, and I once again thought I was best. I called board was K-J-J-9-6 3 to a flush on river. He held AK. I bet flop, he donked turn, to which I flatted. He donked river for $103, and I called. I made him show.
I did not know who he was (or who I think he is, not sure). He had like 2 grand at a 1/2 max stack game, and he played very well.
It wasn't until I got home, I watched WSOP, and recognized him.
Great night. I think I only won about $250 in a few hours, which was small considering all the action.
Anyways. That is all.
xdeucesx
Bar Master
Silver Level
I played like 10 hours of 2/5 with money maker before and he was a really, really nice guy. True degen though, like splashing money around on anything and everything. His buddy and him were betting 100$ on what drink the ****tail girl was going to bring next.
I was still relatively new to casino games at the time so he seemed like a legend. He took a picture with everyone at table afterwards too. Never heard anything bad about him fwiw
I was still relatively new to casino games at the time so he seemed like a legend. He took a picture with everyone at table afterwards too. Never heard anything bad about him fwiw
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
I have heard the same things. I wish I would have had a chance to play on his table though.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
He is the ambassador (I am pretty sure) for the Hollywood Poker Open. He is making his rounds now. He stops in a plays cash at various card rooms around the loop while he is traveling.
J
Jzona1
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Decided to drive up to the city of sin loving the tourist/4 dollar rake.
+200 at aria including a -1k hand. KK vs 10 10 all in pre. He called with 10s???? Love the play but hey why run good when you can run bad?
Going to chill and wait for the games to get even looser tomorrow and hopefully lose with the best hand!!!
+200 at aria including a -1k hand. KK vs 10 10 all in pre. He called with 10s???? Love the play but hey why run good when you can run bad?
Going to chill and wait for the games to get even looser tomorrow and hopefully lose with the best hand!!!
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
That exact hand happened to me recently except there was a shorty who had AA too. Ten hits the flop and the guy with TT jumps out of his chair going "YES!!! YES!!!!"
In other news, left arm was a bit numb at work around 2pm today so I called doc, she said go to emergency room. Got my coworker to drive me, and at the ER, they said no sign of stroke, no sign of multiple sclerosis, but I need to follow up at neurology in 2-4 weeks, cause I still had some abnormal stuff come up in my MRI.
Feeling a little dazed from the whole hospital experience, particularly since had to be by myself (officemate had to leave and go back to work after dropping me). Feel free to AMA about the experience. I work in healthcare IT, so I always find it fascinating to see the healthcare process in general, but particularly while they are using a product that I work on every day.
