Live Grind: How to Fall Asleep at the Table (Without Getting Caught)

Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

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@duggs: Agreed I basically rep no air except for maybe exactly 54cc, and probably only half a combo of it lol. I know what you mean about raising the flop, but based on his sizing I actually thought he was more likely to already have two pair on the flop. But in retrospect that's narrowing his range too much, and a flop raise might be better since we're deep and he's unlikely to fold TP OTF.

Your question about whether I fold if I face a raise behind is a tricky one. Bottom set does kind of suck in that way. I think there are 0 combos of T3, 9 combos of T6, 3 combos of 63, and 3 combos of 66. I think that either of the people behind me would raise any two pair (if they raise a set). The two other villains were on the shorter side, so if I face a raise and end up HU, I probably just try to get the money in.

@stately: I'm reluctant to try to give off fake tells, as they can sometimes backfire if you don't know exactly how villain will interpret them. Personally, when I see two things that don't match - looking confused/worried, then betting enormous - I usually interpret it as extreme strength (and it usually is). As for repping TP, I don't think we rep any Kx at all with this line. As duggs says, we have no air, and I think it's also clear that our value range is pretty narrow. I didn't raise pre, so pretty much the only Kx in my perceived range is going to be something like K9-KJ, and I certainly don't call the flop with any of that range.

I think this is probably just one of those spots where I was up against a half-decent opponent and I wasn't going to get much more out of him than I did. Maybe on a bad day he'd look me up for a $150 bet with a crying call, but it wouldn't be the standard.

He tabled KTo when he folded. I had headphones in at the time, and the table was discussing the hand, since I hadn't shown. The straddler from the hand says, "if it's air, it's air - it's going to be not air way more often than it's air though." It was pretty clear he didn't suck.

On a side-note, I was watching a video on live play that discussed table demeanor in the context of what to do after losing (or winning) a large pot. It talked about actually physically leaving the table after being involved in a big pot, not just to take a mental break (if you lost), but also to let tension at the table diffuse (particularly if you won). I chose to employ this after the 33 hand, and so far as I could interpret, it worked quite well. The villain from the hand was visibly distraught at the table after the hand, and I was obviously silent - the table was just a little less comfortable. I got up, walked around for 5-10 minutes and came back. The table was more comfortable again, and I actually ended up chatting with villain some - he was friendly to me, etc.

Just a few side thoughts. Might post another hand or two later this afternoon, but I'm also going to talk about something I want to make my new session focus.
 
dj11

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33 hand; and I do this fairly often. Your thinking looks great, but I would want to see what that villain was betting, for future reference. Since he was first to act originally, he would have to show his hand, I would not raise the river after he checks. Villain here would love to see what you actually have, and an actual showdown would benefit you and really screw with his mental state. He could decide to just forfeit his hand which would really mess with his table image (the one he probably spent hours fine tuning) but the info gained by not giving him a way to fold is probably +++EV.

I could easily fold that AK hand. But, it would be read dependent.
 
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duggs

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checking back would be pretty absurd.

given his fold does that not make you want to run over him in big pots all the time?
 
Mr Sandbag

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33 hand; and I do this fairly often. Your thinking looks great, but I would want to see what that villain was betting, for future reference. Since he was first to act originally, he would have to show his hand, I would not raise the river after he checks. Villain here would love to see what you actually have, and an actual showdown would benefit you and really screw with his mental state. He could decide to just forfeit his hand which would really mess with his table image (the one he probably spent hours fine tuning) but the info gained by not giving him a way to fold is probably +++EV.

I could easily fold that AK hand. But, it would be read dependent.

Scourrge is checking the river here literally 0% of the time. I don't really understand why checking would be beneficial at all. Villain is more likely to go on tilt by folding to a bet and wondering the rest of the night whether or not his top two pair was the best hand. But that has nothing to do with the river action anyway. Scourrge has the best hand, so trying to get max value is the only option.



BTW, that hand might actually be considered a little run-bad. 95% of 1/2 players are stacking off with K10 there. You just happened to run into the guy who is good enough to fold.
 
dj11

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checking back would be pretty absurd.

given his fold does that not make you want to run over him in big pots all the time?

I was just presenting an alternate POV. Yeah, a value bet is the correct move, but forcing villains hand with a check back is more tilting than any bet he is gonna fold. My gut feeling is villain was airing it, and even a min value bet gives villain the opportunity to muck. In which case nothing is gained by betting anything, and we lose precious info.

Info now is $$$ down the line....
 
Mr Sandbag

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I was just presenting an alternate POV. Yeah, a value bet is the correct move, but forcing villains hand with a check back is more tilting than any bet he is gonna fold. My gut feeling is villain was airing it, and even a min value bet gives villain the opportunity to muck. In which case nothing is gained by betting anything, and we lose precious info.

Info now is $$$ down the line....

I strongly disagree with you. There is just no way villain had air in this spot. In fact, I think we can confidently narrow his range to two pair or better, as he'd probably fold 10x/6x hands when faced with the turn raise. Also, even if we thought villain had Ace high, we could still bet like $35 and probably still get a call because of the size of the pot.

But even if we use your logic of checking back for valuable information, we are giving villain just as much info because we are then forced to roll our hand to take down the pot.
 
Matt Vaughan

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I was just presenting an alternate POV. Yeah, a value bet is the correct move, but forcing villains hand with a check back is more tilting than any bet he is gonna fold. My gut feeling is villain was airing it, and even a min value bet gives villain the opportunity to muck. In which case nothing is gained by betting anything, and we lose precious info.

Info now is $$$ down the line....

Sand and I posted at roughly the same time, but:

Villain literally NEVER has air when he calls a turn raise. And he showed his hand anyway, and was clearly pretty frustrated, so I don't think I can agree.

Edit: And agree with Sand that showing my hand probably actually gives up more info than forcing villain to do so, since we range villains better than they range us. So we gain less info from seeing his exact hand than he gets from seeing ours (not to mention the rest of the table gets a TON of info they would otherwise not get).
 
Mr Sandbag

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The hand is also a great example of why straddling is usually terrible.
 
Matt Vaughan

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Yeah, most of the time. I made probably $50 or so from raising limped around straddled pots :D
 
xdeucesx

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yeah straddling a full ring table at 1/2 is so -ev its insane.
 
Theromeo2k

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IN!! BTW, great pics :)

AK hand: I agree that a larger bet sizing should've been considered, but not shoving because AKs plays really well post flop; thus we wanna give the loose-aggro plenty of room to make mistakes. Flop call is standard against this type of opponent. Overall hand review: A

AA hand: Great read on your opponent. Could have value bet turn and expect to get called by JJ or QQ IMO after showing some weakness on that paired flop by not Cbetting. River call was standard given your reads and the way the hand went down. Overall hand review: A-

KQo hand: Good preflop isolation bet. Against this type of opponent, his flatting range to a raise generally includes: 99-QQ, Ats-AQs, KQs... AKs tends to 3bet-get-it-in a big percentage of the time against Tight-Passive players. However, I've seen a lot of tight regs flat with AQs and QQ very casually. Standard Cbet on that flop. It's possible to bet turn and try to get hands like PP 88 and below, AJ+ to fold. 99 would prolly stick around on that turn even with this type of player. Given all that, c/f seems more optimal at this point. River call was nuts as you acknowledged it yourself. Overall hand review: C-

Note: I haven't read anything else past this point, and will continue reading next time I log in CC. *Overall hand review* is just a fun grading scale that I assign to your hands to further illustrate how I perceived your hand was played given the info.

#RIU #Legion #Peace
 
stately7

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BTW, that hand might actually be considered a little run-bad. 95% of 1/2 players are stacking off with K10 there. You just happened to run into the guy who is good enough to fold.

Absolutely on this. Unfortunate there Scourrge ;)
 
stately7

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@stately: I'm reluctant to try to give off fake tells, as they can sometimes backfire if you don't know exactly how villain will interpret them. Personally, when I see two things that don't match - looking confused/worried, then betting enormous - I usually interpret it as extreme strength (and it usually is). As for repping TP, I don't think we rep any Kx at all with this line. As duggs says, we have no air, and I think it's also clear that our value range is pretty narrow. I didn't raise pre, so pretty much the only Kx in my perceived range is going to be something like K9-KJ, and I certainly don't call the flop with any of that range.

I think this is probably just one of those spots where I was up against a half-decent opponent and I wasn't going to get much more out of him than I did. Maybe on a bad day he'd look me up for a $150 bet with a crying call, but it wouldn't be the standard.

Yeah fair enough, showing my inexperience here a little ;) Sometimes I'll do a very small amount of live hollywood-ing or fake tells, but I don't have heaps of data to tell me if it's working at 1/2. Don't like the idea of them backfiring, so will take your advice on being more straightforward, as Sand also said on another thread, sound players can level themselves a fair bit at 1/2 live.

Agree you have little air in your range, I'm just hoping player is bad enough to feel I may have TPGK otr, but as you mentioned at the start of the HH, he was tight/aggressive and could hand read at least a little. Like your post-script about walking away for 5 mins to diffuse the table vibe a bit, anyways nice hand too.
 
Matt Vaughan

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yeah straddling a full ring table at 1/2 is so -ev its insane.


yeah no mississippi straddle unfortunately. there are a few tables/situations where I'll straddle, but it's pretty infrequent for me.

IN!! BTW, great pics :)

AK hand: I agree that a larger bet sizing should've been considered, but not shoving because AKs plays really well post flop; thus we wanna give the loose-aggro plenty of room to make mistakes. Flop call is standard against this type of opponent. Overall hand review: A

AA hand: Great read on your opponent. Could have value bet turn and expect to get called by JJ or QQ IMO after showing some weakness on that paired flop by not Cbetting. River call was standard given your reads and the way the hand went down. Overall hand review: A-

KQo hand: Good preflop isolation bet. Against this type of opponent, his flatting range to a raise generally includes: 99-QQ, Ats-AQs, KQs... AKs tends to 3bet-get-it-in a big percentage of the time against Tight-Passive players. However, I've seen a lot of tight regs flat with AQs and QQ very casually. Standard Cbet on that flop. It's possible to bet turn and try to get hands like PP 88 and below, AJ+ to fold. 99 would prolly stick around on that turn even with this type of player. Given all that, c/f seems more optimal at this point. River call was nuts as you acknowledged it yourself. Overall hand review: C-

Note: I haven't read anything else past this point, and will continue reading next time I log in CC. *Overall hand review* is just a fun grading scale that I assign to your hands to further illustrate how I perceived your hand was played given the info.

#RIU #Legion #Peace

Thanks for your input :)
 
pocketehs

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I dont understand poker where ppl have 6BB opens and call 25BB 3bets OOP b/c I cant understand their ranges but I like the way you write so Im in :)
 
Matt Vaughan

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<333 congrats, you just made my morning. And by the way, sorry about not getting around to studying - I had to drop my laptop off for them to run further diagnostics. It's getting a part replaced and I'll hopefully have it back this week.

In other news, my stat class is pretty much the easiest thing ever and my only class on Tuesdays, so planning to eat a healthy lunch and then head to the casino for an afternoon grind. Hoping to get 8 hours in, but of course if I end up having my head not in the right place or the games are terrible I may leave early.
 
Mr Sandbag

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I dont understand poker where ppl have 6BB opens and call 25BB 3bets OOP b/c I cant understand their ranges but I like the way you write so Im in :)

You're missing out, man. How would you feel if I told you it is actually beneficial to have a limp range against these people? And you haven't LIVED until you've been limp-shoved upon by two short stacks preflop.

<333 congrats, you just made my morning. And by the way, sorry about not getting around to studying - I had to drop my laptop off for them to run further diagnostics. It's getting a part replaced and I'll hopefully have it back this week.

In other news, my stat class is pretty much the easiest thing ever and my only class on Tuesdays, so planning to eat a healthy lunch and then head to the casino for an afternoon grind. Hoping to get 8 hours in, but of course if I end up having my head not in the right place or the games are terrible I may leave early.

The games are rarely terrible there. It's actually quite amazing to me how much action there is around the clock at the 'Shoe. I feel like the Cleveland poker community is massive. If they actually got creative with tourneys like other casinos, they could cash in big time.
 
Theromeo2k

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OK, I'm up to date with the thread :)

33 hand: Very interesting multi-way hand. It's hard to say much about this hand since I agree with everything I read from, not only your posts, but Mr Sandbag's and Duggs' as well. Very nice read from you guys. The only thing I could add is that I prefer the river shove for 280$ into 380$ as opposed to only betting 100$-150$, because at this point we have correctly identified the villain's range as to having 2pair hands with his decent level of play. Thus; he might be more inclined to look us up on a good looking board for his 2pair hand. Also, any non-shove bet would look even stronger to good hand readers than a shove river bet would; with that way you set it up on the turn. In other words, you could have slightly more air (or more call equity) by shoving than making it look super strong by having him call a price that would be super tough for him to get away from. Overall hand review: A+
 
Matt Vaughan

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OK, I'm up to date with the thread :)

33 hand: Very interesting multi-way hand. It's hard to say much about this hand since I agree with everything I read from, not only your posts, but Mr Sandbag's and Duggs' as well. Very nice read from you guys. The only thing I could add is that I prefer the river shove for 280$ into 380$ as opposed to only betting 100$-150$, because at this point we have correctly identified the villain's range as to having 2pair hands with his decent level of play. Thus; he might be more inclined to look us up on a good looking board for his 2pair hand. Also, any non-shove bet would look even stronger to good hand readers than a shove river bet would; with that way you set it up on the turn. In other words, you could have slightly more air (or more call equity) by shoving than making it look super strong by having him call a price that would be super tough for him to get away from. Overall hand review: A+

Thanks for your perspective. Your point about the hand-reading is a good one, in terms of his interpretation of my sizing, but I think the key here is that my line just looks so nutted. It's very difficult for me to have any air in my range at all. I think 54cc might literally be it. And if he's decent he unfortunately can't call there just to "keep me honest" or whatever it is fish think when they hero call.

I think that's a good point.

More hands Scourrge! (Lol, no rush)

Incoming. I just played a 13-hour session yesterday for +$71. Pretty abysmal. I'm not sure I've ever been more frustrated with a winning session. I spent pretty much the entire session drifting between +$50 and +$200, so it was annoying to quit on the bottom end of that, but the real "kick in the balls" came around 3am...

I've got to eat lunch but then I'll start posting hands. There are at least 3 or 4 I want to get to from last night.
 
Mr Sandbag

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Incoming. I just played a 13-hour session yesterday for +$71. Pretty abysmal. I'm not sure I've ever been more frustrated with a winning session. I spent pretty much the entire session drifting between +$50 and +$200, so it was annoying to quit on the bottom end of that

You already know everything I'm about to say, but I'll reinforce it anyway because it's snowing and I'm bored...

13 hours is a pretty nicely sized session, but remember you only saw ~350 hands. A profit of "only" $71 may seem quite low, but those sessions are going to happen. That's the downside of live poker. It can be such a friggin' grind. Whenever I'm card dead or end my session down a buy in or two, I always give myself a laugh thinking about how much worse it'd be if I played like the typical fish. Even if you think about the number of folds that you make over the course of 13 hours that a regular fish would not make, the swing is huge!
 
Theromeo2k

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@Scourrge: No problem, I'm glad to be in the ship. And yes I understand what you mean about you repping such strength... Mr. Sandbag said it well. Don't worry about it, droughts happen. Just keep your eye on the prize and keep grinding!
 
Matt Vaughan

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PART ONE

I'm so pissed using this computer... I ended up somehow refreshing the page (the keyboard is really sensitive) after spending at least 20 minutes writing stuff out... Ugh.

Anyway, I'll be splitting these up into a few posts because this is getting long, and so people can respond while I'm writing.

You already know everything I'm about to say, but I'll reinforce it anyway because it's snowing and I'm bored...

13 hours is a pretty nicely sized session, but remember you only saw ~350 hands. A profit of "only" $71 may seem quite low, but those sessions are going to happen. That's the downside of live poker. It can be such a friggin' grind. Whenever I'm card dead or end my session down a buy in or two, I always give myself a laugh thinking about how much worse it'd be if I played like the typical fish. Even if you think about the number of folds that you make over the course of 13 hours that a regular fish would not make, the swing is huge!

@Scourrge: No problem, I'm glad to be in the ship. And yes I understand what you mean about you repping such strength... Mr. Sandbag said it well. Don't worry about it, droughts happen. Just keep your eye on the prize and keep grinding!

The being annoyed was less to do with the "number" of how much I won and more to do with the circumstances I was in. Anyway, I got to the 'Shoe right around 2:30pm, and was on a pretty soft table to start. A fair few loose passives. I was playing solid preflop, which was main sessional goal. My secondary sessional goal was to consider lines in the context of villains' tendencies. Some of my recent mistakes have come from not giving passive's bets enough respect, or giving too much respect to aggros. You should see that in some of the hands I post today, and I was happy with my play overall. here's one interesting hand I played at my first table:


Preflop: :ah4: :jh4:
I'm UTG and make it $15. Obviously I have a premium hand, but there's also a loose player who's been going in regardless of raise size with a pretty wide range preflop, and I'd like to isolate him and get HU if possible. It folds around to this villain, on the button, and he calls as expected. The blinds fold and we go HU to the flop.

Flop: ($30) :kh4: :9h4: :7s4: (2 players)
I flop a flush draw and make a standard cbet of $20. Villain quickly calls. I put him on a range of Kx, flush draws, straight draws, and some 9x and 7x.

Turn: ($70) :2c4: (2 players)
I don't expect I have much fold equity, and I expect villain to give me a free card a lot of the time, so I check, and villain checks behind.

River: ($70) :kd4: (2 players)
I miss, and I don't think betting accomplishes much. I check, and villain bets $30. I discount Kx pretty heavily, because I expect villain would have bet the turn with most of his Kx hands. Villain isn't going to value bet just a 9 here either, and every draw missed. I call, villain says, "I missed," and I show down my A high to win the pot.

I ended up calling down with K high in a different spot against this same villain in a spot like this where his line was quite polarizing and he didn't have many value combos in his range. He said something about me "reading people's minds." Ha. As a side-note, I ended up getting a lot of respect from the table after this, and was able to make cbets on non-ideal boards and other such things.

I ended up building my stack up to about $400 before my table ended up breaking. Too bad the old guys occupying the table at that point didn't want to play 4-handed. I would have won at least 50% of the pots. I ended up moving just one table over, which was occupied by a couple decent, but relatively nitty, regs. I got into a hand pretty early against one of the regs who I'm fairly friendly with. He plays tournaments and cash, and my knowledge of his game is fairly limited but I know that he's tightish pre and straightforward postflop. Here's the hand:


Preflop: :kh4: :kd4:
2 limpers to me in MP, and I make it $12. I had been raising a lot of pots, especially straddled pots, and was meeting very little resistance, as the table was fairly tight - but I'd actually just been getting a lot of strong starting hands. The villain, on the button, jokingly says "here comes the thief," and calls, with what I estimate as about $60 behind. The blinds and limpers fold and we go HU to the flop.

Flop: ($30) :jd4: :7h4: :6h4: (2 players)
This is a pretty good flop, but I also expect not to get called too often unless villain has a J. I bet $20, and villain calls.

Turn: ($70) :2s4: (2 players)
Complete blank, and I expect my hand to be good very close to 100%. I go all in, and villain calls, which ends up being $36.

Pretty standard play, but kind of felt like putting a standard one in here, since a couple of these will be decidedly non-standard spots in this session. I ended up losing this hand, as villain had 98hh for an open-ended straight flush draw, and binked a heart on the river to take it down. It wasn't long before I got into another spot with kings:


Preflop: :kc4: :ks4:
Straddled pot, and 3 limpers to me on the button. I'd been raising so many of these straddles that I decided to make it pretty hefty. I bumped it to $30, and one of the limpers on my immediate right called.

Flop: ($75) :ac4: :10c4: :7h4: (2 players)
Not exactly an ideal flop. Villain checks, and I decide to check behind. I see almost no value to betting. The board is a little draw-heavy, but most flush draw combos are covered, aside from ones that have a TON of equity against me like QJcc and 98cc.

Turn: ($75) :4s4: (2 players)
Villain quickly leads for $60. This instantly struck me as a "go away" bet, with its size. Villain had been fairly aggressive post flop, making many bets into preflop aggressors who showed weakeness, and into limped pots that were looking to be uncontested. He hadn't been showing down much at all, since the table was loose and letting bets go uncalled. I called, expecting to face bets on the river.

River: ($190) :5c4: (2 players)
Not the best card, as a few combos do get there, but I already discounted flush draws. Villain bets $75, and I call.

(I don't want to post results for this one yet, so let me know what you guys think.)


The table was pretty straight forward after this, with not much going on. As time went on though, the dynamic changed. A decent reg ended up 2 seats to my left, but he was tightish, and seemed to respect my game a lot (he brought up the AA hand I posted in the thread where I got 2-outered) and had said he liked my play a lot. At around 11 or 11:30pm, an unknown, talkative asian guy sat down on my immediate left.

It became clear almost immediately to me that he was there to play. He was pushing the table around, and grew his stack to about $400 in just an hour or so, mostly by winning pots before showdown. His aggression was very high, and no one was calling down or playing back much. I was also very card dead at this point, which was frustrating. I only got involved in 2 pots with him, neither of which were consequential for me, as they were multiway and I had to fold them both on the flop. Finally I got the opportunity to move 3 seats to my left - 2 seats to the left of this aggro player... (to be continued)
 
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