Live Grind: How to Fall Asleep at the Table (Without Getting Caught)

[redwards92]

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Yeah I have really been working on how I react to losing in similar situations and basically been focusing a lot on my mental game overall which has been showing positive results and better confidence in my game.
GL man

will probably lurk more then post hopefully it does not offend.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Lurkerz Anon.

Just kidding. Lurking is welcomed, but you're also always welcome to voice opinions. (Yes, I got sidetracked from sleep by the internet. Passing out now. MOAR hands TO COME.)

 

[Cafeman]

Opinions welcome? In that case, I make pre bigger in the AKs hand. I mean, we either take it down pre (which is a perfectly fine result) or we make their PF mistakes even bigger.

 

[duggs]

AK i make it significantly bigger, like we could almost shove if we wanted,
AA i want to fold river but still call in game.

 

[redwards92]

AA:
Are you sure we can't get value from like QQ/JJ here? A lot of live regs have flaws in their ranging and sometimes look at a paired board and say there is no way he has it!(lol) If you're confident QQ/JJ or worse folds turn then check is fine I guess river is kind of sick but if he decides our range is weak does he really bet worse for value that we assumed he didn't continue with on the turn if we did bet it? Or does he just try to get to showdown ?

AK hand
probably raise bigger pre especially with "big stack donk" and "bad loose agro" in the hand. As played calling ship seems fine.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Agreed on AK bigger though shipping it with $250ish in front of me seems kind of overkill. EV of making it like $70 has to be higher than shipping imo.

And on AA, I can't draw on specific examples, but he's not a terribad-reg. I'm not saying he is necessarily betting for value on the river. I think he might sometimes think QQ/JJ is good and bet for value. Or he can put me on like QQ/AA and decide he's "going for it." He's not terribad but I don't think of him as a dangerous opponent either. It's hard to describe why I thought a call was fine. But I checked the turn with the intention of calling a river shove.

 

[redwards92]

Yeah I somehow neglected to read the bottom of that last paragraph in the the AA hand lol.

So I guess he really wouldn't ever be shoving for value and that we can assume his range includes enough hands that are air/made into bluffs that the call is fine. Reads are definitely the deciding factor in this one and usually are in live poker.

I have ran into many live players who love to stab at pots when what is perceived as "weakness" is shown so I can understand the call.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

MOAR HANDS

Pretty unhappy with how I played this one. Flop and turn seem okay, but turn could also be a good spot to give up - I should be barreling better cards probably, like J+, and checking with the intention of giving up on everything else. At the time I put villain on tons of PP's and Tx, and I wanted to rep an overpair or strong T. The river call was pure spew, and this was how I decided it was time to go home.

Preflop: It's late at night, table is mostly loose passive, and I'm sitting about $650 deep. 3 limpers to me, and I raise to $15 from the button. The BB flats, and everyone folds. BB is tight, has been pretty card dead, and folding a lot post flop.

Flop: ($35) (4 players)
Villain checks, and I make a standard cbet of $20. I could maybe even go a bit smaller, but $20 seemed fine at the time. Villain calls.

Turn: ($75) (2 players)
Villain checks again, and I bet $45, which would leave villain with $70-90 behind. I wanted the option to jam the river, although at this point I knew I was probably giving up if he continued on the turn. Villain calls.

River: ($165) (2 players)
Villain only think for a few seconds before leading all in for $76. This was a pretty weird line, and my thought process in the moment was that his line was extremely polarizing to VERY strong hands, and missed draws. The only missed draw is of course flush draws, and I block some of them, but not all. I ended up calling.


There are a few reasons this call is just terrible. First of all, I don't even have A high. Even if villain took this line with a flush draw, he should have MANY more combinations of A high flush draws than other types of flush draws, which means that I actually lose to many of his bluffs. I ACTUALLY THOUGHT OF THAT IN THE MOMENT AND STILL CALLED. Again, this was how I figured out it was time to leave.

The other reason is that this player just wasn't getting out of line. Everything about his past behavior at the table suggested that he would probably x/f a missed flush draw on this river. He'd been complaining about being card dead, complaining about not hitting boards and having to fold, etc.

Because of all that, even though his range is theoretically polarized to like 7 value combos (TT, 33, 22 - I think he folds 88 on the turn) and air, he just doesn't have air here. So even though I'm getting a sick price, it's a snap fold.


I was pretty disappointed with this hand, but the fact that I didn't just lose it and go on monkey tilt was encouraging. Last night was a frustrating session in the sense that I ran in god mode for my first half an hour, and then had to fight for pretty much every pot onward. But I thought I held it together very well until the end - plus, the fact that I used that mistake as a sign I wasn't playing my A game was great.

 

[stately7]

Hey man, not sure if you meant to post the same hand twice? So re the KQ hand, agree best thing about it was using it as a good reason to finish the session

Flop is good, turn is iffy but in truth, this villain is folding a lot postflop plus he sounds a little frustrated / tight-weak so turn is probably fine. River's a fold or check back, but you know this, and it's a positive sign from a strong player to post hands which rep humility and learning.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

CC was having database issues and my hand got posted 3 times. Should be all good now - I deleted 2 of them and only one shows up for me now.

Your point about him being weak-tight and the turn being iffy but okay is a good one. However based on his play throughout the night, I think the only thing he makes it to the turn with that folds to two barrels is PP's less than TT, and maaaaybe flush draws.

 

[stately7]

Yep, only see one now. Yeah, pretty much re his holdings OTT. So he showed down A10 or JJ?

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Imo he never takes this line with JJ or AT. Like I literally think his entire range on the river is TT, 33, 22.

 

[redwards92]

Sorry in my last post I didn't mean to say he wouldn't ever shove for value but overall just meant to say that I assume our perceived "weakness" helps us include worse hands in his range for shoving that river.

also KQ hand

I think you pretty much summed it up yourself.
I probably give up and xb on the turn .

as played i think river is a clear fold as well regardless of pot sizes/stacks

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Ahhh, okay I follow you now - exactly: the turn check back lets him shove a lot of worse hands.

 

[duggs]

not a board I'm always betting 3 ways but this is a hand i would opt to do it with. turn i probably check,(although given your description betting seems fine)

river is just light years from a call and he can have random 2pair AT type hands swell.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Flop is HU, and again I'm like 95% sure he x/c river with AT.

Edit: Just noticed I have "4 players" on the flop, my bad. I keep copy-pasting my hand format and that's something I regularly forget to edit...

 

[Weisssound]

Looks fine maybe even $60 pre flop
Edit: what deuce said

^this. Loose Aggro only has one move if he hits on the flop: All In. Loose Aggro has two moves on a miss: Check-Fold, or Donk-bluff. That's it. AKs is most likely to win by the river based on your information, and Donkey is very likely to shove on the flop. I'd be pushing that pre-flop pot as much as I think sensible. If I get folds around, I'm not mad. If Donkey calls of $60 or more pre-flop, I'm not mad. The less I have to call into the pot to see the river come flop time, the better I feel about it.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Another Hand

River action is pretty much the only thing I'm not pretty confident on. I suppose turn sizing is another thing, though if I go much bigger I think I start to invite too many folds. Thoughts?

Preflop:
I'm first to act in a straddled ($5 bet) pot. I nearly muck, but the table hasn't been raising limpers a ton, and I expect to get to see a flop multiway a ton, which I expect to be profitable. I'm about $450 deep, and 2 players cover me (one is the straddler). I limp in as do 2 more players, 1 of them in the blinds. Straddler checks.

Flop: ($20) (4 players)
Gin flop for me. Dry, not over connected, extremely likely someone has top pair. Plan is to lead if it checks to me. BB checks, and straddler leads for $20. With 2 players to act behind me, I figure a call is pretty likely to bring someone else in with a hand that's often drawing almost dead. On top of this, the straddler leads for pot, which suggests at least top pair, and potentially a two pair hand. I expect him to lead many turn cards. Straddler is relatively tight, aggressive, and hand reads at least a little, though I'm unsure how competent he is thus far. After I call, the other limper folds, but the BB calls.

Turn: ($80) (3 players)
BB checks, and the straddler leads again, this time for $60. This is a really tough spot for me. I think that there's a nonzero chance that BB will call here, but I think it's still pretty likely he folds. BB is a tilt-prone reg who will likely interpret the 2nd barrel and my call correctly as strength, and fold most weaker draws and pairs. The straddler, on the other hand, is quite strong here. He has led for pot and 3/4 pot into 3 and then 2 people. He should have 2 pair a very high percentage of the time here since the K hasn't slowed him down. If he somehow has 54cc, I'm ahead and want value. If he has two pair, I don't expect him to fold necessarily. I raise to $150. BB folds. The straddler is openly confused by my play, and seems to be staring at the board to see what hands I could possibly have. He plays with calling chips for a while and eventually makes the call.

River: ($380) (2 players)
Pretty good river for me. Nothing to scare the villain off. Effective stacks are now approximately $280. Villain very quickly checks to me. I'm quite torn here. I think that a $150 bet will get looked up by two pair a lot. But will a jam get folds? Unfortunately when I jam I don't think he's going to put me on much air, which means he's going to have a pretty good reason to fold his two pair hands. On the other hand, this pot is now enormous, and if there's ever a time to bet almost 150bb with bottom set, this seems like it's probably it. I go for the jam, and the straddler agonizes and eventually folds. I do not show.

 

[Mr Sandbag]

KQ: I think giving up on the turn is best. If villain has been really tight postflop, I'm not sure I'd continue to barrel on a board like that. He obviously connected somehow. It could be a flush draw, but it could also be some 10x hand that he doesn't want to raise or a set. River is a clear fold.

33: Seems like two pair to me. His preflop range is literally ATC since he straddled and checked, and the fact that he bets the pot on the flop and bets large again when a King hits the turn is a clear sign of strength. Your turn raise sizing could be a bit smaller, even a min-raise. My first thought on the river is to bet like $100. I used to always bet at least half the pot, regardless of size, but recently I've been incorporating smaller bets into my game when pots get bloated. Not many 1/2 players pay attention to bet sizing in relation to the pot but rather the "economic" size of a bet or raise.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

For 33, why do you want to size turn smaller? (I actually thought about going bigger to set up an easier river jam.) It's only 2.5x, and I don't think this is the type of player that looks only at the economic size of the bet. The simple fact that he bet $20 and then $60 makes that even more likely. As played, the smallest I ever go on the river is the same size I made it on the turn tbh. I don't think going $50 smaller gets 1.5x as many calls as making it $150.

 

[Mr Sandbag]

When you raise turn, it narrows your range considerably. You didn't raise pre, so your range is pretty much sets only, K10 on your worst day. There's really nothing else there. I guess your turn raise is okay because he probably isn't folding two pair right then. But I still think the river shove is overboard. Expecting him to stack off on the river with some junk like 10-6 seems unrealistic to me.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

You're probably right that the shove was overboard. I was just defaulting to trying to go for max value, even though I know he was enough of a thinking player that he could probably get away from two pair here. The thing is, sometimes even semi-decent players will put you on exactly what you have, and still not get away from second-best hands. I think that's why I ended up shoving.

 

[Mr Sandbag]

I agree with you there. The stuff people stack off with can be rather surprising.

 

[duggs]

33 looks good to me, i find it really hard to give you any air with any sizing on river so just opt for bigger and expect him to be inelastic.

but i probably raise flop since TT won't just check pre, and 66 is unlikely and weaker hands are far more vulnerable with J+ being cards that make it more difficult to get value from.

also on flop if you get raised from behind are you folding?

 

[stately7]

33 hand, i think i play it much the same way as you, except OTR i look a tiny bit confused/reluctant and bet - like you say - either the same as your turn bet or maybe a bit more like $180. I'd be hoping the straddler puts me on TP and calls down with his two pair hand.