Live Grind: How to Fall Asleep at the Table (Without Getting Caught)

IPlay

IPlay

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Best thread on the forum, that 44 hand is pretty sick and I am personally never folding that river since the only combo that beats you is KK. Sick sick hand and even sicker that it happened when you moved up to 2/5.

Now I will go back to lurking in the shadows and reading some great thought processes :)

Good luck in future games
 
Matt Vaughan

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Best thread on the forum, that 44 hand is pretty sick and I am personally never folding that river since the only combo that beats you is KK. Sick sick hand and even sicker that it happened when you moved up to 2/5.

Now I will go back to lurking in the shadows and reading some great thought processes :)

Good luck in future games

Thanks IPlay!! This means so much to me, and I appreciate you taking the time to say so. Even though this thread is based largely on me and my improvement as a player, I'm glad when it can benefit others as well. It's nice to know there are some lurkers who appreciate the chatter around here :)

I agree that it's a bit sick it happened at 2/5, but also keep in mind I had my fair share of run-good that session. I flopped a set and got paid off when my image was just perfect - looked like I could be tilty. Then I also got it in bad with a FD vs. two pair and got there. And I also made some mistakes, so all-in-all I can't feel that bad about it. Plus, the fact that I actually tanked a bit - with what was effectively the second nuts - makes me pretty happy too.
 
Matt Vaughan

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I feel like the flop is dry, but I still have to bet. There are some straight draws, people can still have 9x, and I'm not going to get the BTN to bet very often. Once there's a x/r though, should I be x/3betting the flop or just flatting like I did? Flatting seemed fine, since no one is really hand-reading that well, but I do pretty much only rep sets when I do this.

BTN: 162 BB (VPIP: 36.04, PFR: 19.59, 3Bet Preflop: 5.63, hands: 8,923)
SB: 96.5 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 4.17, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)
BB: 222.5 BB (VPIP: 31.04, PFR: 17.89, 3Bet Preflop: 6.88, Hands: 4,015)
UTG: 127.5 BB (VPIP: 16.30, PFR: 9.51, 3Bet Preflop: 2.68, Hands: 1,002)
Hero (MP): 97.5 BB
CO: 103 BB (VPIP: 36.07, PFR: 14.11, 3Bet Preflop: 5.99, Hands: 2,521)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 9:spade: 9:club:

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BTN calls 3 BB, SB calls 2.5 BB, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (12 BB, 4 players) 9:heart: 4:club: 6:spade:
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets 8 BB, SB raises to 19 BB, fold, Hero calls 19 BB, BTN raises to 53 BB, fold, Hero raises to 94.5 BB and is all-in, BTN calls 41.5 BB
 
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duggs

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im betting flop its not that dry tbh
as played just raise gii, any more money in the pot looks equally strong so get stacks in
 
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Next we have an exercise in hand-reading. My hand is not given, nor is villain's. Let me know what you think villain has after each decision point, and whether you like my line with air, with value, or a semi-balanced range (should have some of both). Another thing to consider is what you think a good preflop range is in this spot, and what our plan is for different postflop board textures.

Preflop: X X
On the button, facing an UTG raise from a somewhat weak-tight player to $10, along with two calls. I call. The blinds fold.

Flop: ($35) :7h4: :7s4: :5s4: (4 players)
Checks around to me and I bet $20. UTG calls.

Turn: ($75) :4c4: (2 players)
UTG checks, and I bet $45. UTG tanks for a while before calling.

River: ($165) :8s4: (2 players)
UTG checks, and I bet $75. Villain snap folds.


Let me know what you guys think. I'm going to head to bed, and when I get up I'll post some of my hands from tonight's session.


Answering now before reading on. Weak-Tight UTG. Raises up with two callers and you on the button. So we can assume Villain is probably raising with a big Ace, decent to monster pockets, or maybe KQ/KJ on the bottom of the range. The call behind tells me the other guy has a similar range and doesn't have the chutzpah to isolate his opponent. The second call behind that could be almost anything, suited connectors definitely fall into the range, as do speculation hands like pocket twos or whatever. Your range is even wider than that. You could be coming in with virtually anything which makes you Johnny Dangerous. However, I'd say the flat kind of eliminates hands that don't play well in multi-ways, so big Aces are likely out, monster pairs are probably out as well.

Flop: 7 7 5

So this is pretty much the WORST flop the villain can see. A middle-strength paired board with a straight and flush draw. Check, check - makes sense for big aces, as well as big pocket pairs. Third guy checks, so he definitely missed the board. You bet $20. It's a little lite into $35, not sure how to read that. It's about 2/3rds so it's safe to say it looks like you hit the board in some regard. Anything from 56 off, to 89, to 10Jspades, to something nutty like 87, or even A7 is potentially in your range here.

UTG calls, which makes sense since there's a lot of draws and you could be betting without having a made hand. Still, I actually favor a fold with anything except an over pair. That I might get it in with a check-raise try to figure out where I'm really at and scare off drawing hands. The other guys fold out. If they had something they'd be staying in or raising.

4 of clubs on the turn.

Check and another 2/3 pot bet. The tank-call is silly. Tank-fold please. If your hand isn't made already, which it very likely is, it's even more likely to be made by the river. I think the Villain has TT-AA. Anything else really needs to be out of the hand. What's worse, is I really can't narrow your range any more. The card is only reinforcing the drawing line and the bet is exactly the same ratio.

8 of spades on the river.

He might as well have folded without checking. Anything that wasn't there got there.

Here's my conclusion:

I think the Villain had something like a pocket overpair to the board and just couldn't let it go. I can't really say what you had. You could have missed a draw of some sort and STILL bet here exactly the way you had, or you could have had a made straight, made flush, or set of 7s. Pretty much the only thing I can eliminate is quad 7s because you be looking for someone else to make their straight/flush. Any and everything is getting value. So this is the spot where if I have AA, I'll fold to a bluff and pat myself on the back for not being a calling station.
 
Matt Vaughan

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Thanks for your input, Weisssound :)
 
Matt Vaughan

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I don't normally do much inducing stuff, but CO is pretty bluff-happy. Thoughts?

CO: 77 BB (VPIP: 43.16, PFR: 23.16, 3Bet Preflop: 10.06, Hands: 492)
BTN: 131 BB (VPIP: 33.40, PFR: 14.12, 3Bet Preflop: 5.56, Hands: 529)
Hero (SB): 143.5 BB
BB: 110 BB (VPIP: 45.80, PFR: 20.59, 3Bet Preflop: 2.22, Hands: 242)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q:spade: J:spade:

CO raises to 2 BB, fold, Hero raises to 8 BB, BB calls 7 BB, CO calls 6 BB

Flop: (24 BB, 3 players) 8:diamond: 9:diamond: A:diamond:
Hero checks, BB checks, CO checks

Turn: (24 BB, 3 players) J:heart:
Hero checks, BB checks, CO checks

River: (24 BB, 3 players) A:heart:
Hero bets 3 BB, BB calls 3 BB, CO raises to 19 BB, Hero calls 16 BB, fold
 
Mr Sandbag

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99: Bet flop. It's not really dry.

QJ: LOL. I like it. No way BB or CO are checking Ax hands twice. Not sure what CO is trying to rep there. I'd be shocked if he had anything at all.
 
Matt Vaughan

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99: Agreed checking flop is a pretty big mistake.

QJ: I don't think he's really trying to rep anything except "I HAZ HAND." He sees me bet tiny and assumes weakness. IIRC he had some weird 1-pair hand that he turned into a bluff.
 
Mr Sandbag

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I remember a live hand once where it checked through to the river in a 30bb multiway pot, a guy bet 3bb, I folded my Ace high because I thought "There is absolutely no way he doesn't even have a small pair of some sort." He got called by Ace high and flipped over air. I would have won. TILTED HARD.
 
micromachine

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QJs - I like it too, think you'll get small value from 9x and 8x and also allow the aggro fish to bluff his air.

Out of curiosity are you still playing on Bovada? What limits are these?
 
duggs

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I remember a live hand once where it checked through to the river in a 30bb multiway pot, a guy bet 3bb, I folded my Ace high because I thought "There is absolutely no way he doesn't even have a small pair of some sort." He got called by Ace high and flipped over air. I would have won. TILTED HARD.

you need like 9% equity to call that bet, so id call with like the top half of our range that has any semblance of sdv,
 
Mr Sandbag

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Hence the tilt.

Didn't think anyone would ever bet so little with just air. I overestimated how fishy the guy was apparently.
 
Matt Vaughan

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QJs - I like it too, think you'll get small value from 9x and 8x and also allow the aggro fish to bluff his air.

Out of curiosity are you still playing on Bovada? What limits are these?

Not playing on Bovada anymore (no HUD's there anyway, aside from Hold'em indicator, and you don't often get more than a couple hundred hands on anyone since it's anonymous). This is 1/2.
 
JOEBOB69

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You playing online now?
I would post some HA's, but i'm so i tired i don't remember the details. All i can say is i'm still crushing. I should post some thoughts/theories on some stuff in my thread but eh.
 
Mr Sandbag

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Define "crushing."

Not being sarcastic. Actually curious as to what your win rate is at different stakes. It's difficult to find accurate/truthful/realistic info about it. Everything I read is like "I'm winning for $40/hr over 175 hours. Not bad."
 
JOEBOB69

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Define "crushing."

Not being sarcastic. Actually curious as to what your win rate is at different stakes. It's difficult to find accurate/truthful/realistic info about it. Everything I read is like "I'm winning for $40/hr over 175 hours. Not bad."
I'm winning more than your example of "everything you read". An no i'm not putting in huge hours. But i'm a married man with two small kids that works on the road and works ~130-140 hours every 2 weeks.
So through April 175 hours might not seem a lot to every one, but to me it's hellish hours played.

^ That seems smart dickish. Not the point i was trying to get across, but i'm tired.
 
Mr Sandbag

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No I get it man. 175 hours is a lot and can take awhile to achieve. But it still isn't enough to get an accurate win rate. Downswings can last 100+ hours. Same with heaters. That's why live poker is a bitch haha.

What stakes are you playing?
 
Matt Vaughan

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IT'S OVER 9,000

Well, I figure it's time for another update. I played about 10 hours of 2/5 last night, and posted a pretty sick +$1,400 session. My bankroll is now sitting a little over 9k, which actually puts me kind of in the realm of being rolled for 2/5. Not really a solid, ideal roll, but pretty much rolled nonetheless. And perhaps most importantly, even if I have a bad couple sessions at 2/5, I'll still be very well-rolled for 1/2.

Yesterday was interesting from a number of perspectives. For one thing, I was on the same table as Sand (first at the must-move and then at the main game) for quite a while. This was our first time playing together in a while, and our first time playing 2/5 together. I ran pretty well, and Sand ran pretty terribly, so we weren't involved in many pots. His range is tight already - add card-deadness and people 3betting him right and left, and suddenly he's not seeing many flops.

We got into a kind of weird hand where tbh I was very lost on almost every street. Not lost as in I had no idea what to do, but rather, lost as in I was unsure whether I could create profitable spot or not. Here's the hand.

I opened 99 to $20 in E/MP, and Sand 3bet to $75 from the HJ (or maybe CO). It folded back around to me. I was frankly already unsure whether I could profitably call. We weren't deep enough for me to set-mine (there was maybe $500 behind after the 3bet), and I doubted I was stacking him that often when I hit a set anyway. Plus my pair is just a little too low to be able to handle a lot of heat on a lot of different flops. But I did end up calling. I flopped gin on K98 two tone, and actually had to think pretty hard before even checking the flop. I strongly considered virtually every option: x/c, x/r, even leading. Eventually I decided that I pretty much only get 2 or more streets from AK or AA, and I can rep TT-QQ pretty well by x/c the flop.

So I checked, and Sand bet $90. Again, I considered my options, but still liked my train of thought. I called, and the turn came down. I honestly don't remember what it was - I think it wasn't a complete blank: I want to say it was an offsuit J. I checked again, planning to probably x/c turn and lead river. Unfortunately Sand checked it back. The river came a blank, and I was left with a somewhat confounding spot. If Sand was pot-controlling the turn with a value hand, it was pretty likely he would bet the river, but I wasn't sure how often he would check the turn with AK or AA. On top of that, I didn't think his bet would be very big. I also figured he would almost never try to bluff the river once I call his flop bet. So I thought leading myself and trying to rep KQ or QQ would get looked up by AK or AA. And sizing bigger would get me paid more.

I ended up betting $230, which in retrospect was probably too big, seeing as the pot was $320ish. Sand effectively snap folded though, so I'm guessing he had QQ, AQ, or similar. Probably weighted more to QQ.


I got into a number of interesting spots during the session, a couple of which I was very proud of. I hope to post some of them over the next few days, but I'll put in one more highlight here:

I'm in the SB holding KThh in a straddled pot. It folds around to me (#thisisnt1/2anymore), and I make it $25. It folds to the straddler, who makes it $55. His sizing and his posture are both suggesting weakness to me, so I call with a reasonable hand. From what I can see (from around his cupholder), villain has roughly $400 behind. The flop comes AQ3, with one heart. Not an ideal flop for me, though I do have a gutter and a backdoor heart draw.

I check, and villain holds out a black chip in front of him, hovering just over his cards. He moves it just in front of them, and the dealer prematurely says "one hundred," to call out the bet. But villain hasn't released yet, and is sort of hesitating, gesturing with the chip.

"Mmm... eight-five," he says, and tosses the chip out.

He seems like he is trying to appear nonchalant, but then he completely shuts down. He stops moving completely, and stares straight at a patch of table near the board and pot. I've seen him do this once before, and he had complete air when he was called. I'm 95% certain he has no piece of the board, but I'm unsure what I should do. I think he has about $350ish behind after the $85, which isn't very much if I'm wrong, so calling down seems bad. But if I shove all in, it really looks like I want him to fold. I figure I can probably still raise/fold though (just in case my read is wrong somehow).

I tank for a hair longer, and then count out $185 and push it forward. I'm instantly sure he is going to fold. He makes a face when I push out the raise, as if he is being put to a tough decision and is trying to figure something out. But it's very obviously just him "Hollywooding" to save face. He does this for about a full minute, before finally shaking his head as if to say, "well, I guess you must have it here - I'll fold my AK," and pushing his hand into the muck. I scoop a nice pot and toss my hand forward face down.


This hand was pretty exciting for me, though not so much because I won a pot, or because I x/r with air in a 3bet pot. It just felt really good to make a read I was confident in, and then follow through on it. Moving up limits is always hard (especially for as big a jump as live 1/2 to live 2/5), and following through on reads in a bigger game can really be a challenge. So I was pretty happy with that aspect of it.

Later on, in the main game, I found myself pulling the trigger in a number of other spots, those these were not based on live reads. There were multiple times where I would 3bet with a hand like 76s, or QJo, and get called. Then an AKx flop would come down, and I would cbet, knowing how strong the villains thought my 3betting range was. They would tank a while, clearly not WANTing to fold, but they'd eventually let it go when they missed. More on 3bet pots and fit-or-fold postflop play later.

All-in-all, it felt great to play solid in what ended up being a somewhat tougher game than the last 2/5 session I played - and winning 280bb sure didn't hurt either!! :D
 
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Nice update. I was playing live last night myself and was up a fair bit. Does it seem like live poker is actually getting softer? We might be far enough removed from Black Friday that the overall quality of play is regressing a bit again. In my area I've never seen it this bad.

What are the odds Sandbag is 3 betting you light pre in the 99 hand. Just because it's you, and because he's had very little opportunity to play some pots before then? Even if it's not normally characteristic of him to do so I feel like it's at least possible in that particular instance.

As you played it don't you kinda have to check the river to him. Probably the best play there imo unless he really is going to check back most of the hands you're targeting with your lead.
 
vinylspiros

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good to hear your doing so well scourge. Nice post too. Will be interesting to see how 2/5 goes for you. am following with interest.
 
Matt Vaughan

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Nice update. I was playing live last night myself and was up a fair bit. Does it seem like live poker is actually getting softer? We might be far enough removed from Black Friday that the overall quality of play is regressing a bit again. In my area I've never seen it this bad.

What are the odds Sandbag is 3 betting you light pre in the 99 hand. Just because it's you, and because he's had very little opportunity to play some pots before then? Even if it's not normally characteristic of him to do so I feel like it's at least possible in that particular instance.

As you played it don't you kinda have to check the river to him. Probably the best play there imo unless he really is going to check back most of the hands you're targeting with your lead.

It certainly crossed my mind that he could be 3betting me light (thought I wrote that but guess I left it out, oops). Definitely could be getting out of line more vs. me than others, especially because of how tight he'd been playing (even compared to usual).

However when he bets flop and checks back turn, I don't think he is expecting to get folds if he bets the river with his air. His line looks too "bluffy," I think, and I suspect he's firing a one-and-done cbet here with air. That being said, a check might strictly be better as played, since I allow that 5% chance he bets air or w/e, and also let him make a mistake by perhaps betting QQ, where I think it's pretty unlikely he ever calls the river. And the sizing considerations might not outweigh the times he bets more hands for me than he'd call with. Thanks for the thoughts, DK. :)

As for live poker regressing, it's tough for me to comment on since I've only been playing for about a year and a half, but I think your hypothesis could certainly have some truth to it. It's tough to gauge the long-term changes though, since so much an affect a player pool. The economy is a big thing that springs to mind. But there are a definitely a LOT of bad players who think they are god's gift to poker, for no other reason than they won $600 in one session of 1/2 one time.

good to hear your doing so well scourge. Nice post too. Will be interesting to see how 2/5 goes for you. am following with interest.

Thanks vin. I mean with 2/5 it's tricky, because the softness varies so much day-to-day, and I've only logged 25 hours so far anyway. Plus, since I'm graduating and won't be staying in the Cleveland area, I won't even have access to these games anymore. I'm really hoping to grind out a lot at 2/5 before I leave (in like 2ish weeks) to get experience, get comfortable at those stakes, and hopefully run decent-ish and take some solid profit home with me. But from what I've seen, if I game select well (which will mostly involve leaving a bad 2/5 table if necessary), I will do fine in that game. Thanks for following, buddy :)
 
Mr Sandbag

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I had QQ. I hated my flop cbet right after I put it in. When you call my 3bet, I gave you a pretty narrow range of AK/PP's. You're obviously not folding AK to a flop bet, and you're probably not going to call with underpairs. I think I was just getting fed up with my inability to make a value hand throughout the night.
 
Matt Vaughan

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I had QQ. I hated my flop cbet right after I put it in. When you call my 3bet, I gave you a pretty narrow range of AK/PP's. You're obviously not folding AK to a flop bet, and you're probably not going to call with underpairs. I think I was just getting fed up with my inability to make a value hand throughout the night.

Yeah QQ made a ton of sense. And I think vs me - in particular or someone like me - you can check back that flop and call down at least one bet, sometimes two. You were getting pretty brutalized so I def understand wanting to just take down a hand.



Well I played 2/5 again last night and got into a few tricky spots. In one I flopped TPWorstK in a limped pot. It checked around and I turned trips. I checked, a weak player bet $15 into about $25, and one player called. I actually think it wouldn't be bad to fold here, but I called. The river was an A, so the board was Q87QA. I checked and the bettor made it $35. The other player folded, and I made a crying call, knowing I was behind a very high portion of the time. He had 77 for a boat.

Here's another hand I played last night, which requires a bit of history.

THE HISTORY:
I open QQ UTG to $20, and get 3 callers, including villain in the CO. BTN who is a clear fish makes it $80 to go and it folds to me. Effective stacks will be about $450 if I call. I flat, it folds to CO, who calls. 3-way to flop

Flop ($280) K98 two tone
action checks around.

Turn ($280) 6o
I check, and the CO (villain) bets $85. BTN quickly makes it $200, and I snap-fold. CO jams it in for maybe $350 total, and BTN calls.

BTN has KK for top set, CO has 97s and rivers a straight.


A few hands later, villain berates someone for chasing a 6-outer vs. him (lol).


THE HAND:
UTG limps and I raise AA to $25 from UTG+1. Villain from previous hand flats OTB, and the limper also flats.

Flop ($75) JxT8ss
Checks to me, I bet $55, and the BTN calls. UTG folds. HU to turn.

Turn ($185) 3o
I bet $115, which leaves me with $225 behind. Villain tanks a little, asks how much I have, I tell him, and he calls.

River ($315) 7o
I think for a little bit and check. Villain snap-bets $225 and stares at me. I have no read on what the stare might mean.

Thoughts on what you think of turn line, and what you want to do on the river as played?
 
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