*Don't Touch* Oreo's Cash Game Grind

[duggs]

bet check bet is mildly concerning but I'm ok with it, flop is std, turn is fine, river it depends how much of his range is air, if he has AQo here i think its a call but if his range is TT+ AK pre flop then river is a fold.

 

[or3o1990]

bet check bet is mildly concerning but I'm ok with it, flop is std, turn is fine, river it depends how much of his range is air, if he has AQo here i think its a call but if his range is TT+ AK pre flop then river is a fold.

Yeah i was a bit thrown by the flop sizing followed by the check.


The first hand of the day!! After he pretty much flopped me dead he says in the chatbox, "Have you ever just had that feeling?" After a raise and a reraise from utg while holding jack ten suited? Nah, don't think I've ever had that feeling..


iPoker - $1 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 146.84 BB (VPIP: 21.43, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 14)
SB: 93.98 BB (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 7.14, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 14)
BB: 29 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
UTG: 123.64 BB (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 7.14, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 14)
Hero (UTG+1): 104.45 BB
MP: 102.9 BB (VPIP: 7.14, PFR: 7.14, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 14)
MP+1: 114.3 BB (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 21.43, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 14)
MP+2: 94.44 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 14)
CO: 187.57 BB (VPIP: 23.08, PFR: 7.69, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 14)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A♠ A♥

UTG calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 4 BB, MP calls 4 BB, fold, fold, CO raises to 11.37 BB, fold, fold, fold, UTG raises to 123.64 BB, Hero calls 100.45 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (225.77 BB, 2 players) 6♣ 9♣ 8♣

Turn: (225.77 BB, 2 players) 9♥

River: (225.77 BB, 2 players) 2♥

UTG shows T♣ J♣ (Flush, Jack High)
(Pre 22%, Flop 97%, Turn 91%)
Hero mucks A♠ A♥ (Two Pair, Aces and Nines)
(Pre 78%, Flop 3%, Turn 9%)
UTG wins 241.96 BB



Not very happy with this one. I think I should just ship the turn? The most likely range I think after this very large 3bet on the turn is AK 99 q10 and AA. I called because I figured if he's bluffing then let him bluff and I'll call safe looking rivers but there were so many draws I should have just GII or let it go on the turn right?


iPoker - $1 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 94 BB (VPIP: 13.33, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 15)
MP+1: 105.17 BB (VPIP: 21.88, PFR: 9.38, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 32)
MP+2: 82.3 BB (VPIP: 53.06, PFR: 38.78, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 49)
CO: 195.82 BB (VPIP: 20.41, PFR: 6.12, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 49)
BTN: 98 BB (VPIP: 10.34, PFR: 3.45, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 29)
SB: 30.65 BB (VPIP: 12.50, PFR: 8.51, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 48)
BB: 29.26 BB (VPIP: 51.28, PFR: 5.13, 3Bet Preflop: 8.70, Hands: 39)
UTG: 91.49 BB (VPIP: 22.45, PFR: 8.16, 3Bet Preflop: 5.00, Hands: 49)
Hero (UTG+1): 112.45 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J♦ K♦

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, CO calls 3 BB, fold, fold, fold

Flop: (7.5 BB, 2 players) J♠ 9♥ K♠
Hero bets 5 BB, CO calls 5 BB

Turn: (17.5 BB, 2 players) 5♥
Hero bets 13 BB, CO raises to 56.5 BB, Hero calls 43.5 BB

River: (130.5 BB, 2 players) Q♥
Hero checks, CO bets 130.5 BB, fold

CO wins 258 BB

 

[Figaroo2]

AA unlucky you must have be salivating when he shoved pre. At least that will encourage him to do it again. I would have just typed w*nk*r in response.
KJs firstly I don't play this trouble hand until much later position. His stats show he likes to just call so there will be a lot of suited aces in his range. Yep fold or shove turn. I prefer a fold the turn raise is a really strong move.

 

[duggs]

AA unlucky you must have be salivating when he shoved pre. At least that will encourage him to do it again. I would have just typed w*nk*r in response.
KJs firstly I don't play this trouble hand until much later position. His stats show he likes to just call so there will be a lot of suited aces in his range. Yep fold or shove turn. I prefer a fold the turn raise is a really strong move.

WHY???

 

[duggs]

2 possible scenarios

you are running into 99/JJ only, but given stats he is likely to be wider pre, the more QT he has the more J9 K9 and JQ KQ etc he has, but also the less likely he is to raise those hands on the turn.

 

[Figaroo2]

2 possible scenarios

you are running into 99/JJ only, but given stats he is likely to be wider pre, the more QT he has the more J9 K9 and JQ KQ etc he has, but also the less likely he is to raise those hands on the turn.

Passive players (who don't three bet, like this guy) don't usually raise the turn like this unless they have it.
John got us to look through our hands for times when we have barreled and faced a turn raise. They nearly always have a made hand here. you are welcome to look at my data base if you want to. In fact i'll run it again later.
And yes they do raise the turn with a nut straight at this level rather than wait for the river especially with two flush draws out there. I would as well. I agree if he has QT then he also has other 2 pair combos that we beat but from what I have seen from sweating these tables with oreo is those hands usually just call down.

 

[or3o1990]

AA unlucky you must have be salivating when he shoved pre. At least that will encourage him to do it again. I would have just typed w*nk*r in response.
KJs firstly I don't play this trouble hand until much later position. His stats show he likes to just call so there will be a lot of suited aces in his range. Yep fold or shove turn. I prefer a fold the turn raise is a really strong move.

I honestly was expecting him to have a big pair as well when he did this and after I called I turned my attention to another table. By the time I looked back all I saw was green. What does w*nk*r stand for lol?

When I ran the equity against the range I suspected I was a 42% underdog but with the money already in it was a shove on the turn.

possible scenarios

you are running into 99/JJ only, but given stats he is likely to be wider pre, the more QT he has the more J9 K9 and JQ KQ etc he has, but also the less likely he is to raise those hands on the turn

After the fact I was also wondering if he could have done this with AK. Because he was a fish and he would just call it pre. I had planned to GII against a raise or a clean river but he made is soo large that I was unsure of what I wanted to do at that point. Hence the deplorable call.

 

[xdeucesx]

Oreo, you playing any BDPO events on Brovada?

 

[or3o1990]

Oreo, you playing any BDPO events on Brovada?

No, I haven't. I tried to satellite into the 150k yesterday with no luck. I'm kind of thinking about just taking a stab at it next Sunday even though it's a little outside of my BR.

 

[Figaroo2]

facing a turn raise having double barreled

This is how I'm doing against a turn raise having double barreled. I went back and looked at all hands for the last 15 months
I went through the first 20 hands only one was a draw, the rest were made hands.
I mention this because 100nl bovada plays much like 10nl on pokerstars from what I've seen. The players just aren't sophisticated enough to bluff raise the turn and most players are so bad they can't fold once they have double barreled tptk so its pointless to try and bluff them on the turn...

 

[xdeucesx]

While I agree that x/c, x/r is like the nuttiest line in the word (Beluga theory), to say that 100nl plays like 10nl on stars is pretty wrong imo. Definitely some regs at 100nl who can make plays like this bluffing knowing the information we all know here, that turn x/r is super strong. Obviously, hard to tell with the anon tables, but at FR and w/the HUD running, it's pretty clear within a few orbits who the regs are.

I think it's a fold ott as far as the hand, especially given his sizing.

 

[xdeucesx]

No, I haven't. I tried to satellite into the 150k yesterday with no luck. I'm kind of thinking about just taking a stab at it next Sunday even though it's a little outside of my BR.

LMK, we can swap some % since I'll be firing a ton.

 

[Figaroo2]

to say that 100nl plays like 10nl on stars is pretty wrong imo..

I'm not looking to get into a row about it but I've sweated Oreo like 20 hours this year and reviewed plenty of his hands at 100nl Bovada
As a 25nl and 10nl reg on Stars myself for the last 2 years Isuggest to you 25nl FR on Stars is stronger than 100nl FR on Bovada. 10nl is about the same. Oreo your thoughts?

 

[xdeucesx]

I'm not looking to get into a row about it but I've sweated Oreo like 20 hours this year and reviewed plenty of his hands at 100nl Bovada
As a 25nl and 10nl reg on Stars myself for the last 2 years Isuggest to you 25nl FR on Stars is stronger than 100nl FR on Bovada. 10nl is about the same. Oreo your thoughts?

lol come on. First off this is completely preposterous, but even assuming it's true, why play on stars? If the games are that solid, that stakes 10x higher on other sites are equivalent, why doesn't everyone go play euro sites? They have better deals, are just as safe and much softer.

edit: Before I get flamed, obviously 10nl stars is harder than 10nl BV. But why would you stay on stars if the games are so hard that like, semi-pro regs wouldn't even be able to transition and beat them?

 

[Figaroo2]

sorry to hijack Dave

25nl FR on Stars has at least one supernova player per table now. A year ago you were lucky to see a gold player. Its gotten much more difficult.
This was the first table I opened, the nova guy is a serious professional grinder on 16 tables and there are dozens of them infesting the level
I have extensive notes and labeling on the level from over 120K hands
I don't play that level for money, I can bearly beat it.
I play it to improve, as a training ground. I make a ton more cash on 888 and ipoker but at the moment I'm just trying to be the best player I can be.
Winning money isn't everything for me at the moment I work too many hours to think about that, its about improving all the time, if i do that then the money will come later.
If you can't beat that level its pointless trying to go up.

 

[Figaroo2]

Just to add, therefore a lot of the more casual grinders (like me) have moved down to 10nl and that level has improved a lot as well.
It is actually where all the fish at the moment due to the latest 'missions' which have to be completed at a minimum of 10nl.
I now only play on Stars when these missions are running, otherwise I'm on 888 and beating that easily at more than 4 times the rate I can manage on stars

bearly......Barely lol
I posted my stats on the level in my thread

 

[or3o1990]

I think it's a fold ott as far as the hand, especially given his sizing

This guy wasn't particularly aggressive but it kind of stunk because he would definitely play AA this way and possibly AK. He was soo fishy. Calling was obviously the worst play though. When he continued on the river I felt a bit more confident that he had the straight. Even though I have almost no tens in my range I think he would have slowed down there without the ten.

LMK, we can swap some % since I'll be firing a ton.

For sure, I'll check out the schedule and get back to you.

I'm not looking to get into a row about it but I've sweated Oreo like 20 hours this year and reviewed plenty of his hands at 100nl Bovada
As a 25nl and 10nl reg on Stars myself for the last 2 years Isuggest to you 25nl FR on Stars is stronger than 100nl FR on Bovada. 10nl is about the same. Oreo your thoughts?

I do think that I can beat 100nl on Bovada at a higher rate than I would beat 25nl on PS from what I've seen.There are plenty of bad regs at those levels on stars but the biggest difference imo is that they at least know how to fold. On bovada many of the fish are insanely loose and sticky. Idk if it's because of the anonymous nature of the site or what?

 

[or3o1990]

Only played for like 3 hours today because I've been feeling tired and off my A game because of it. For the past week and a half I've been having these borderline lucid dreams and I haven't been feeling very well rested during the day as a result. It's annoying.

A couple of spots from today.


Should have made it bigger on the turn for sure. Like 15-18 I think. But on the river I decided to let it go. His bet looks like value as he didn't get all in. He was loose passive so I don't expect him to be bluffing or doing this with worse pairs than mine often enough to be good. Thoughts?


iPoker - $1 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 146.8 BB (VPIP: 27.87, PFR: 16.39, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 61)
Hero (MP+1): 117.3 BB
MP+2: 107.01 BB (VPIP: 24.66, PFR: 10.96, 3Bet Preflop: 3.85, Hands: 73)
CO: 103.46 BB (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
BTN: 101.43 BB (VPIP: 19.12, PFR: 5.88, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 68)
SB: 138.42 BB (VPIP: 10.09, PFR: 7.34, 3Bet Preflop: 6.45, Hands: 110)
BB: 110.4 BB (VPIP: 16.51, PFR: 11.93, 3Bet Preflop: 3.70, Hands: 110)
UTG: 78.36 BB (VPIP: 37.50, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 32)
UTG+1: 52.3 BB (VPIP: 35.48, PFR: 12.90, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 31)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A♠ Q♥

UTG calls 1 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, UTG calls 3 BB

Flop: (9.5 BB, 2 players) K♥ A♣ 2♥
UTG checks, Hero bets 6 BB, UTG calls 6 BB

Turn: (21.5 BB, 2 players) 4♠
UTG checks, Hero bets 13 BB, UTG calls 13 BB

River: (47.5 BB, 2 players) 7♥
UTG bets 30.52 BB, fold

UTG wins 75.67 BB



This spot was wiPoker - $1 NL - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: 108.4 BB (VPIP: 21.05, PFR: 15.79, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 19)
UTG: 98.5 BB (VPIP: 15.79, PFR: 10.53, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
MP: 48.9 BB (VPIP: 30.77, PFR: 23.08, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 13)
CO: 149.44 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 13)
BTN: 120.52 BB (VPIP: 26.32, PFR: 15.79, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 19)
Hero (SB): 109.35 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A:diamond: 6:diamond:

fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 10 BB, fold, BTN calls 7 BB

Flop: (21 BB, 2 players) 5:diamond: J:club: 5:heart:
Hero bets 11.5 BB, BTN calls 11.5 BB

Turn: (44 BB, 2 players) J:diamond:
Hero bets 22 BB, BTN calls 22 BB

River: (88 BB, 2 players) A:spade:
Hero checks, BTN bets 77.02 BB, fold

BTN wins 162.02 BB
ierd. The guy was aggressive but there are very few aces that float here mostly he has pairs or a J. Then he shoves into me on the river. Is he turning 10 10-KK into a bluff on the river? I didn't think so. Any thought on double barrelling a double paired board like this?

iPoker - $1 NL - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: 108.4 BB (VPIP: 21.05, PFR: 15.79, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 19)
UTG: 98.5 BB (VPIP: 15.79, PFR: 10.53, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
MP: 48.9 BB (VPIP: 30.77, PFR: 23.08, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 13)
CO: 149.44 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 13)
BTN: 120.52 BB (VPIP: 26.32, PFR: 15.79, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 19)
Hero (SB): 109.35 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A♦ 6♦

fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 10 BB, fold, BTN calls 7 BB

Flop: (21 BB, 2 players) 5♦ J♣ 5♥
Hero bets 11.5 BB, BTN calls 11.5 BB

Turn: (44 BB, 2 players) J♦
Hero bets 22 BB, BTN calls 22 BB

River: (88 BB, 2 players) A♠
Hero checks, BTN bets 77.02 BB, fold

BTN wins 162.02 BB

 

[Figaroo2]

AQ I think we could put more pressure on on the the turn by betting bigger here. As played I think the fold is correct with the flush draw arriving and the Ace of hearts outstanding and more importantly you identify him as passive.

A6 as you suggest I don't think double barrelling achieves anything here. What's he going to fold that decided to call on the dry flop?
If we had pot controlled a bit more it's an easier call on the river. Tbh looks like a straight forward float and against an aggressive opponent like this I'm calling here a fair amount but because we bloated it the call is now more difficult.

 

[duggs]

Passive players (who don't three bet, like this guy) don't usually raise the turn like this unless they have it.
John got us to look through our hands for times when we have barreled and faced a turn raise. They nearly always have a made hand here. you are welcome to look at my data base if you want to. In fact i'll run it again later.
And yes they do raise the turn with a nut straight at this level rather than wait for the river especially with two flush draws out there. I would as well. I agree if he has QT then he also has other 2 pair combos that we beat but from what I have seen from sweating these tables with oreo is those hands usually just call down.

define have it, we have a fairly strong made hand here

obviously, i didnt say that.

why would QT raise but K9 not? sorry i dont get the logic, both are terrified of rivers K9 even more so.

 

[duggs]

While I agree that x/c, x/r is like the nuttiest line in the word (Beluga theory), to say that 100nl plays like 10nl on stars is pretty wrong imo. Definitely some regs at 100nl who can make plays like this bluffing knowing the information we all know here, that turn x/r is super strong. Obviously, hard to tell with the anon tables, but at FR and w/the HUD running, it's pretty clear within a few orbits who the regs are.

I think it's a fold ott as far as the hand, especially given his sizing.

its also not a useful blanket rule with different textures, obviously a turn raise on AA37 is different from a turn raise on KJ93tt

 

[duggs]

AQ, i think rivers closish but looks like a fold, turn should be bigger, river if he makes it 24 or less i probably call.

A6 turn barrel just isnt going to make much sense range wise, we have very few Jx and only 3 5x and lots of overpairs/overcards. i think we should check our whole range on the turn.

calling river is suicide

 

[Figaroo2]

Hehe Duggs back to his aggressive best.
Using his vpip/pfr of 20/6 as a guide I'd say K9 is pretty unlikely here. It's just not a calling hand here very often (for me ever, or anyone who have Read Doyle Brunson's comments on the hand).
If he has two pair it's more likely to be KJ or J9 which flop much better. But I don't see either two pair shoving 130bb on the end with a flush out there and 4 to a straight. For that reason 99 JJ also seems less likely. The cards that fit this hand best is QT or if he was more aggressive T8 or AT including of hearts. Whichever I'm giving the guy a straight minimum with Tens unblocked. QT fits the turn raise really nicely for a passive player, it's unblocked but takes a small chance shoving on the end.
If this was some sort of bluff turn shove river then we'll played but I don't see it off those stats.

 

[duggs]

Hehe Duggs back to his aggressive best.
Using his vpip/pfr of 20/6 as a guide I'd say K9 is pretty unlikely here. It's just not a calling hand here very often (for me ever, or anyone who have Read Doyle Brunson's comments on the hand).
If he has two pair it's more likely to be KJ or J9 which flop much better. But I don't see either two pair shoving 130bb on the end with a flush out there and 4 to a straight. For that reason 99 JJ also seems less likely. The cards that fit this hand best is QT or if he was more aggressive T8 or AT including of hearts. Whichever I'm giving the guy a straight minimum with Tens unblocked. QT fits the turn raise really nicely for a passive player, it's unblocked but takes a small chance shoving on the end.
If this was some sort of bluff turn shove river then we'll played but I don't see it off those stats.

im not talking about river, river is a trivial fold because everything got there and we beat no value hands. why is K9 unlikely? he runs 20/6? im not advocating it, but i also dont advocate running 20/6 or running passive face up post.

im talking about the turn and have always been talking about the turn, because its the only street that is interesting, obviously we can infer more about his range from the fact he bet this river which strongly refutes possibility that he had 99/JJ on the turn, but again thats not useful for a counterfactual, its actually a mild case of results orientation.

 

[Figaroo2]

K9 flops worse than QT KJ J9 in my experience and is a reknown donks hands that guys playing 100nl might be expected to avoid. It can't be totally discounted of course because our guy looks fishy but I'm putting more weight to the other hands and especially QT as it's unblocked with almost as many combos as all the 2 pair hands together.
You could argue on combo count alone continuing on the turn is okay but this ignores his obvious passive nature which makes turn raises with 2 pair less likely and this is the point I have been pushing from the start. When we check these spots 95% of the time in my database it's the nuts or close to it.