The Tournament Quiz

spiderman637

spiderman637

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1=B and D, but i would be more happy to call with 88 than A9o, so final answer is "B"
2=A
3=C
4=D

I know i am absolutely right for questions 1,2, & 3 according to my strategy rules. But little bit doubtful about 4th one as the question is not that clearly stated...
 
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switch0723

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I don't understand how there can possibly be a debate here. c9 has PROVED the answers using maths. How can people debate against the fact that the maths has shown the correct answer?
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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Not read the thread past the OP and not done any maths other than estimation in my head, so this is more of an 'instinct check' than anything.

1 - A,B,D (pretty sure on this one)
2 - B (I am absolutely certain we would want a fold and if I am wrong I will die of shock or something)
3 - A,C,D (pretty sure on this one)
4 - C (if i've got one wrong it's probably this one)

Okay going to read the thread now.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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Fun thread is fun!

Without trying to go against what op is saying here,I would say that there is a premium on chip accumalation in tournaments, that isnt taken into account in some ICM models.

On question 2:You want JJ called by Ace little because you need those extra chips.You win Tournaments by getting chips and busting people imo.
The way you win most of the time is to be the big stack,thus you need all the chips possible.I want him to call 100% of the time here.Also he is never folding if he is any good at all.

No, you don't want to be called. It's a SNG and not an MTT. Chip accumulation is of course a concern but not busting, and especially not busting on the bubble, is an even larger concern.

Just getting ITM in SNGs is of increased importance when compared with just getting ITM in big MTTs. Firstly because in a standard 9-man SNG structure you get nearly double your buyin back just through mincashing (at a guess you get like 1.2* your buyin for mincashing an averagely-structured big MTT), and secondly because the difference between mincashing and winning a big MTT is huge (like thousands of % in ROI terms), whereas the difference in a SNG is tiny in comparison (a few hundred % or so).

C9,I know I didn't explain myself well in that last couple of post,however
your opponant isnt ever turning there cards up and letting you decide what to do.I tried to convert it into real world situation and I made it confusing and a bad example.Its 3 am so my bad.

Im really glad you want the guy to fold his a9 to your JJ.

My point is the problem is flawed to what really happens in a tourney to the point of being useless info to me.

Please tell me in a real tourney situation,how to use this info that, I hope my opponant folds a hand that I shouldnt know what it is (but I do). A9 is a great hand in this situation

Oh by the way,I have no chips and 27 off should make me win a showdown here.

Oh btw I have JJ (lol) and Im thinking about folding :confused: just kidding about the folding (but for sure the small blind has to put pressure on you with any 2 if you were to fold.

Please explain again the big lesson I was suppose to learn?
In this situation A9 is always making me win a showdown here....period ;)

I can't work out whether you're deliberately being so obtuse or if it's just accidental.

Replace the exact hand we 'know' villain has with a range of hands that we can estimate he has given our read and previous action. Replace what you want him to do with what you think he will do with sub-ranges of the aforementioned range of hands. Marvel at how it's suddenly very relevant and not as distanced from the 'real world' as you think, more that it's just taken real-world concepts and simplified them somewhat in order to illustrate a point.
 
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Debi

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No, you don't want to be called. (a) It's a SNG and not an MTT. Chip accumulation is of course a concern but not busting, and especially not busting on the bubble, is an even larger concern.

Just getting ITM in SNGs is of increased importance when compared with just getting ITM in big MTTs. Firstly because in a standard 9-man SNG structure you get nearly double your buyin back just through mincashing (at a guess you get like 1.2* your buyin for mincashing an averagely-structured big MTT), and secondly because the difference between mincashing and winning a big MTT is huge (like thousands of % in ROI terms), whereas the difference in a SNG is tiny in comparison (a few hundred % or so).

Thanks Chris - I so badly wanted to say all of that but I couldn't cause my brain is defective.

Now get your butt in msn!
 
doops

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The quiz assumes a lot of shoving. I try to avoid shoving, although it's not always possible. Ofttimes, in the end stages or bubble, a 3xBB is sufficient.

If the quiz is about pot odds only, fine. As such, it was interesting and I thank you. If it's about how to do well in tourneys and SNGs, pot odds are not the only criteria. Once the shoving starts, it gets down to luck...and I prefer to keep options open, for both myself and the other guy. I want him to have a chance to fold, and not be in til the river after a shove.

Sure, sometimes you have to shove to make your point, and sometimes you have to call a shove. I don't fear it. But the shove is an overused tool, and the donk's best friend.

So, IMO, the premise of the quiz is faulty.
 
Stick66

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Still on #2:

For those of us who think we would want a call, I think our brains are so geared towards considering all factors that the strict maths are taking only a small part of our decision. I understand that the question was designed to get at only the maths, but the flaw is in the "he shows & asks" element. I know that part was designed to take out the pre-shove decision, but I think that is what we are hung up on.

Another question: If we knew he had Ace-Rag Suited, would we shove with JJ?

Answer: Yes. If you combine the fact that his fold would win for us AND our 68% fave could win for us, then it's a no brainer.

BUT... It seems that if we are shoving strictly for wanting a fold, then we could do that with ATC as a bluff. It's the JJ w/its 68% that is the kicker in the whole equation.

Then the bubble comes into play. Can we last long enough with only 1100 chips? DM touched on that, but can anyone take that further? I think we need to be set up to weather the typical tight play that happens near SNG bubbles. Anyone?

EDIT: To restate: Hero is waaay the short stack on the bubble in that scenario.
 
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switch0723

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Once the shoving starts, it gets down to luck..

This isnt actually true, there is a lot of skill in knowing true shoving ranges and you can get a large skill edge over your opponents if you learn pushbot charts and when you should be shoving so its unexploitable
 
pifan

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I really tend to agree with c9 on the jj vs a6 scenario, we are dealing with situation here that happens alot. here. if we do this hand with blinders on and just look at the simple situation i really think the 300 no risk, is a better option than winning the extra. with a 31.5 % chance of busting out of the tourney. knowing what we do of the A6 hand i take the blinds and run.

but i also when we take the blinders off. It is all in both ways regardless. and I hope my jj holds up.

great test C9 hope to see more of these.
 
kidkvno1

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This was a great idea for a thread and I for one appreciate C9 doing something that can generate some good strategy discussion among tournament and sng players. His sole intention in doing this was to do that. He admits he is not a tournament player - but whether or not I agree with his strategies I have enough respect for his overall poker game skills and knowledge of poker that I would only debate strategy with him respectfully. (and reluctantly lol - but that is just me)

It should not be a debate about who is good at tournaments, who is beating sng's and how good anyone thinks they are.

If he minded that you have a different opinion than him he would not have purposely chosen what he thought to be a borderline decision - or one that he knew would generate debate.

So guys have a poker discussion and leave egos out of it. All of you have valuable contributions to make in this thread. :)

Yes we must leave are egos out of it, it does not help... <<< As you have all seen with me!!!!

Originally Posted by Dorkus Malorkus

No, you don't want to be called. (a) It's a SNG and not an MTT. Chip accumulation is of course a concern but not busting, and especially not busting on the bubble, is an even larger concern.

Just getting ITM in SNGs is of increased importance when compared with just getting ITM in big MTTs. Firstly because in a standard 9-man SNG structure you get nearly double your buyin back just through mincashing (at a guess you get like 1.2* your buyin for mincashing an averagely-structured big MTT), and secondly because the difference between mincashing and winning a big MTT is huge (like thousands of % in ROI terms), whereas the difference in a SNG is tiny in comparison (a few hundred % or so).
Thanks Chris - I so badly wanted to say all of that but I couldn't cause my brain is defective.
Now get your butt in msn!
Chris is right i do not want to be called with A\Rag, well i'm holding JJ.
I was called by AT, well i was all-in with JJ, i lost the game, i went out in 7th...

Thanks C9... :icon_sant


Debi, when i get everything running right, are you going to make me go in to MSN like that...:confused::confused::confused::eek:
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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e: quoted post has been deleted so ignore this.
 
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tenbob

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I find sample size in MTT's somewhat amusing when people quote even hundred's of games, especially money added ones.

One of the local guys I know plays MTT's online for a living on stars, he plays 15 MTT's a day, for the last 2 years (~15K MTT's). According to him he is no-where near approaching a sample size big enough to determine if he is a long term winner or if he is on the upside of variance. The funny thing is when he went pro in the first place he was after having a $70K 2 week strech, and was arrogant as hell. Trying to get him to join here, he is a 2+2'er.

The JJ hand in question is pretty straightforward, and debating the math on it is silly. Taking it as a straight-forward do i want Ax to call my shove with JJ in a nutshell daft, we have to take a lot (A LOT) more into consideration. One way thinking will only get a poker player so far in this game.
 
Debi

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I posted this somewhere else for assistance and one of the sng coaches at Stox (Pzhon) has this to say:

The "Steal or Induce?" button of ICM Explorer is designed to answer that question. Here is the output:

equity before hand: 0.0826
Equity of a steal: 0.1084
Failed steal, win: 0.1534
Failed steal, lose: 0
Ties are worth 56.92% of a win.

Equity vs. marginal resteals needed to induce action: 70.69%

Note the tie factor of 56.92%: You aren't that risk-averse. PokerStove says JJ has 68.155% equity, including 0.17% from 0.34% ties. The ties are worth 56.92% of a win, but this adjustment is negligible. JJ doesn't have enough equity, so according to the ICM you don't want the BB to call.

It's possible that positional considerations would favor taking a gamble, since you only get one free hand before hitting the blinds.

(he said I could quote him)
 
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Thanks to Dakota-xx for posting question 2 on the StoxPoker forums, and inviting some of us to come here to post.

I make instructional videos for StoxPoker, and I am the author of a shareware program called ICM Explorer which you are welcome to download for free from http://www.icmexplorer.com. ICM Explorer automates many complicated ICM calculations, and it is particularly helpful for questions 2 and 4. I might feature those questions when I make a video on ICM Explorer for StoxPoker.

Question #1:

The following scenario occurs in heads up play in a SnG.

$100 SnG, Blinds 250/500, No antes, Payouts: 1st, $450; 2nd, $270

Hero is BB with 8775 chips
Villain is SB with 4725 chips

Pre Flop: (750 chips) Hero is BB with Xx Xx
Villain goes all-in for 4475, Hero ???? (4225 to call)

Assume that villain doesn't have any glaring leaks, and is solid. We're getting pot odds of 1.24:1 or 45%. We know our opponent shoves any pair, any ace, and KQ in this spot. Which hands can we call villain's shove with?

A. 33
B. 88
C. 76o
D. A9o
If your opponent pushes only that range, then 33 is a close call, and both A9o and 88 are clear calls, while 76o is a clear fold.

However, you should expect a solid opponent to push much wider than that. For 10 bb, the Nash equilibrium pushing range is about 56.6%. 33 is only a slight favorite against a random hand, but since you only need 45% equity, it's a clear call against such a wide range. While some good players don't know that they are supposed to shove some hands like 53s, a good player should be shoving over 40%, which would still make 33 a clear call.

Question #2:

The following scenario occurs on the bubble of a SnG.

$100 SnG, Blinds 100/200, No antes, Payouts: 1st, $450; 2nd, $270; 3rd, $180

Folder is UTG with 3600 chips
Hero is BTN with 800 chips
Folder 2 is SB with 4000 chips
Villain 2 is BB with 5100 chips

Pre Flop: (300 chips) Hero is BB with JJ
UTG folds, Hero goes all in for 800, SB folds, BB flips over A 6 and asks you if you want a call. He assures you he will do whatever you say, and the floor man says that whatever you tell him to do is binding. You reply with:

A. I have you dominated, call!
B. I am a scared little girl, please fold.
Dakota-xx quoted my response above. It's a great use of the "Steal or Induce?" button of ICM Explorer. A more common use is when you are considering whether to make a small raise (or limp) or to push for perhaps 12 bb. You might expect that an aggressive opponent will rarely call, and will resteal with a wider range than he will call a push. Do you want the action or not? As long as you plan to call the resteal, you can ignore hands like AK that your opponent might have, since all of the money is going in either way. You might expect that the marginal resteals of an aggressive opponent might be hands like QTs and A2s. If you have enough equity against these hands, then you want the action, and you should make a small raise to provoke a resteal. If you don't have enough equity, then you should push to take away the option to resteal.

Near the bubble, you should be inducing action with fewer hands, since you often don't want to get all-in even as a 2:1 favorite. This comes from two things:

  1. Rational risk aversion from the payout structure which rewards survival much more than in other tournament structures, and
  2. The blinds are often large compared with your stack, so stealing the blinds looks attractive compared with gambling to double up.

Question #3:

The following scenario occurs during the rebuy period of a MTT.

$100 MTT, Blinds 10/20, No antes, Top Heavy Payout Structure

Everyone has equal (1500) chip stacks

Pre Flop: (30 chips) Hero is BB with Xx Xx
UTG Raises to 1500 with A9. Folds to you in the BB.

Given your magical read on UTG, what hands can you call this shove with?

A. 2 2
B. 2 7♠
C. T T♠
D. Q T
In that tournament situation, you need about 50% equity to call, so you should call with 22 and TT.

In practice, you don't know that the UTG player has A9o instead of 66, and it's usually a huge mistake to make calls like this with 22.


Question #4:

The following scenario occurs on the bubble of a SnG.

$100 SnG, Blinds 100/200, No antes, Payouts: 1st, $450; 2nd, $270; 3rd, $180

Folder is UTG with 3500 chips
Villain 1 is BTN with 4000 chips
Folder 2 is SB with 3500 chips
Hero is BB with 2500 chips

Pre Flop: (300 chips) Hero is BB with Q J
UTG folds, Villain raises to 500, SB folds, Hero goes all in for 2500

If villain calls with a range of AT+, KJ+, and 66+, how often does villain have to fold for this move to be better than folding ourselves?

A. 74%
B. 63%
C. 55%
D. 32%

This is another problem ICM Explorer is designed to answer, this time using the "Semibluff?" button.

First, QJs has 36.141% equity against that range according to PokerStove, coming from 35.61% wins and 1.06% ties. Make sure to double the 0.53% equity from ties reported by PokerStove.

Now, enter the stacks, blinds, and initial raise into ICM Explorer. Set the bettor to the BB, and caller to the BTN (raiser). Set the bet to something large, 2000 or greater. Set the win% when called to the equity reported by PokerStove (either 36.141 or 0.36141 would work). You don't have to do anything to the get-called percentage, but if you want to duplicate these results, use 37%. Then click the "Semibluff?" button.

Effective bet size: 2000 on top of calling 300.
Probability of winning when called: 0.36141
Probability of getting called: 0.37
Give up: 2300 chips, 0.193
Successful steal: 3100 chips, 0.2365
Failed bluff, lose: 0 chips, 0
Failed bluff, win: 5100 chips, 0.3247
Ties count as 63.85% of a win.
Failed bluff, average: 0.1174
Semibluff, average: 0.1924

Calls allowed at 0.3614 equity: 36.5%
Equity needed at 63% folds: 0.3664

So, it looks like you can't quite resteal with 63% folds, but that's very close to the break-even point.

In fact, your equity should be set a bit higher than 36.141%, since your ties are better than half of a win. Ties are 63.85% as good as a win, so winning 35.61% with 1.06% ties is as good as 36.28% wins. That's still not quite enough to make it right to resteal with at most 63.0% folds.

Since the BTN is calling your resteals with about an 11.3% range, you can profitably resteal if he is raising more than about a range of 11.3% * (1/0.37) ~ 31%.

In fact, 31% is not so wide for button raise, and I routinely resteal with hands like this against players with a high steal rate.
 
the lab man

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wow this thread got so much better and so much info TY
 
acehearts1

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Question#1-B
Question#2-B
Question#3-C
Question #4- D
 
bazerk

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Thx for recruiting additional insight dakota-xx & much thx for the additional info pzhon! Since I started out playing live & then went internet I'm still trying to familiarize myself with all the tools available & determine whether or not I want to use them.

c9h13no3, this was a great idea for a thread & I hope you'll continue to challenge the rest of us...I know, for me, I need to refine my calculation skills for poker improvement...I guesstimate a lot :eek:.
 
Debi

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Thanks pzhon for taking the time to join and post your thoughts on all of the questions! (If any of you remember the question to Collin Moshman about whether he will be writing another book or not - he said he will be working with someone else on writing one about the math. That someone else is pzhon).
 
Snowmobiler

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I think this is a great thread also! :)

I have made several rookie mistakes in this thread.
I will learn from it for sure. :mad: :joyman:

To OP: Very well Done!


Snow :icon_sant
 
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Dakota has convinced a bunch of Stox coaches to post in this forum. Nice!

As to my responses, I pretty much agree with the majority with a few caveats.

1. ABD - Can remove A if you have a big edge
2. B - Pretty certain fold is right except that I don't think it's as clear cut as OP makes it seem. ICM does have its fallacies including its inability to distinguish between positions. This is important because knowing how many hands you have before the blinds hit you is highly relevant when you have a short stack. Here, we have enough fold equity even after one more round of blinds and with one more hand before the BB again, chips with certainty seems right.
3. ACD - Eh, again I think this depends a lot on how big an edge you have on the field. A and D are certainly marginal calls if you are putting villain on a range as opposed to a single hand.
4. Is the given range the opening range? I'm guessing this question is designed to give people a better understanding of the power of resteals but I don't understand this question.
 
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I would go with straight B on all the questions. But that's just how I roll.
 
Panamajoe

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I haven't read this thread through so it may be way too late to be getting my 2 cents in.:eek:

Question #1 - B
Question #2 - B (and hey! I resemble that remark!)
Question #3 - C
Question #4 - D (kinda cornfusgin')
 
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Interesting thread!!! :deal:

And i will choose...

1. C
2. C
3. B
4. D

Wish u all have a Merry X'mas~~ :icon_sant
 
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