'Black Friday' and associated fallout megathread

[bubbasbestbabe]

It might help your discussion basis if you referred to lobbying and lobbyists in their correct purpose and functions.

'Lobbyists' are not politicians and are not the ones being brided. They are (although they deny it) the ones doing the bribing. Lobbyists and lobbying firms can be quite expensive and are hired by firms and/or special interest groups to promote their positions to politicians and/or committees and various entities responsible for recommending or approving legal or legislative actions.

'More ($$) to bribe the government' than you thought ... ?? From a business article over the weekend, Google just released figures that they paid their lobbying firm in Washington DC almost 1.5 million dollars in just the first quarter of this year, up from last year's first quarter of approx 1.35 million dollars. Consider if the 1.5mil is an 'average' quarter, then a firm like Google spends at least 6 million dollars annually to promote their special interests in just federal issues coming out of Washington. That's 6 million annually to go TALK to politicians to help them see the company's side of an issue facing 'some' federal legislation.

Imagine what corporations like AT&T, Verizon, the auto industry, energy related firms, the oil companies, food related industries... etc... pay each year just to lobbyists.

As part of his campaign platform, (Pres) Obama promised to reduce the effects of lobbying in Washington. Instead, it has increased substantially.

The funny part is considering that WE pay the inflated prices for company products and services that spend millions to get legislation that protects them from giving most folks a fair deal in their repective marketplace for various reasons ......

**************************

Well GE, which is a multi billion dollar corporation, paid out over $79 million last year to lobbyists. And guess what they paid in income taxes?......zero dollars.
Now that's a big bang for your buck.

 

[DADOC]

GRINDERS???

Hey you grinders out there, I Seriously fill bad for you all, yea yea, we knew there were risks, but the way public opinion seemed to view poker, in a positive, entertaining manner and marketing campaigns out the wazoo for big bucks, we either got lulled or lost the, "will there ever be a crack down" bet??? People who play know that there are quite a few grinders out there, how many who are on the positive side, who are making a living or adequately supplementing their income I guess will Always be debated, haha. What are you guys doing??? Moving to another country, or to the casinos, no website out there now is even close to the quality you've been used to, do you sit back taking everything in and just think, those of you in school or have families can't just get up and go for awhile, or you may be taking a break with that deep seeded worry deep in your brain that says this might last along time???? I know, alot of blabbing but I truely do fill BAD FOR ALL OF YOU!!!!! And selfishly bad for us that are hoping that everything would fall into place on the felt a few times so we may put a couple dollars away for a rainy day. What are you GRINDRS doing?? The very best to ALL of you out there !!

 

[dj11]

I seem to remember (fuzzy memory in my old age) that any lobbyist representing foreign interests has to register and be a whole lot more visible to the Americannot public than domestic lobbyists.

 

[DetroitJimmy]

Screw it. I'm searching for work in Windsor now. Might as well leave Detroit like everyone else.

This is just a prime example of how life ain't fair. Here I am though whining about my favorite money making hobby, when there are FAR MORE important things in life. Whining does nothing to help this thread or anyone for that matter. Not saying anyone else is, but I realize I have been. There is good reason for me to be upset though.

Recently I gain a new perspective on life. Almost exactly a week before this Black Friday. You see most of my life, my emphasis was on helping myself more than others. Then I realized I was wasting my life. I am 35 now and on full disabilaty for a back injury I substained back in 2007. I have no professional skills. Poker was going to be a way for me to suppliment my weak ass fixed income(although I am vey thankful for it, it's just not much).

Just before Balck Friday I was going to speak with Social security to see if I could qualify it as a part time job. My plan was to pay myself the max I could make each month without getting kicked off SSDA. Then at the end of the year, whatever I didn't need in my BR to make sure I didn't go brokeski would go to help the less fortunate. If I ended up good enough to make a living off it, I would take myself off disability and quit feeling like a mouch.

So if it ain't gonna happen, then it ain't gonna happen. Just sucks I have to find another way to not feel like a shitturd the rest of my life. Considering going back to school since this is in a sence what I was doing. Only my school was like a payed internship. Just tempted to stay on SSDA the rest of my life and volunteer my time when I can walk.

This is just one of many examples of how the DOJ has ruined lives. Not mine, but the people I plan to help. I am truly done as I can say no more. Sorry for not really adding to this thread. Just have to get this shit off my chest every now and then is all.

I had a recent life changing experience that

 

[Lofwyr]

I'm getting tired of hearing the term "level playing field". The American B&M casino definition of this term seems to be "an arena where we will not have to compete against entities who have been doing this for over a decade while we've been sleeping, have built a solid, loyal American customer base and whose client software is free from bugs, visually pleasant and intuitive and works on both PC and MAC."

You left out "...and the existing superpowers will be locked out for the forseeable future"

So ironic that the reverse situation is reality for anyone else trying to start a business in the US. "Late to the game? Too bad, you get to compete straight up against the likes of AT&T, Walmart, Safeway, Apple, etc." No special 'blackout' periods for average Joe and his business. God no...that would be socialism.

 

[Charade You Are]

DOJ's Priorities From the Man Himself

Monday, April 25th, 2011 Attorney General Eric Holder Speaks About the Department of Justice’s Priorities and Mission

"First, and most importantly, I promised that the Department’s top priority – and our chief responsibility – would be protecting the security, rights, and interests of the American people."

NEWSFLASH - Poker players aren't people.

Also notice that while he brags about obtaining a conviction in the $3 bank fraud scheme, not a WORD about Black Friday and trampling on our rights.

http://www.facebook.com/DOJ?v=box_3#!/DOJ/posts/144836198919450

 

[Charade You Are]

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2011/04/15/video-prosecute-goldman-sachs-or-quit-spitzer-tells-holder/

 

[Gunner57]

So ironic that the reverse situation is reality for anyone else trying to start a business in the US. "Late to the game? Too bad, you get to compete straight up against the likes of AT&T, Walmart, Safeway, Apple, etc." No special 'blackout' periods for average Joe and his business. God no...that would be socialism.

Why do you think the internet has been such a growth market? Because it is a new platform that the big companies have not learned how to manipulate yet (but it is coming as you can now see).

The American dream to me has always been about freedom (finanicaly and personally). However, because the government now works for the benifit of corporate America much of the oppertunity that used to be in the US is gone or gets pulled away. Costs of employees, Legal requirements, Tax requirements, and global competition have made America a place where barriers to start your own business are higher than ever.

That is not to say there is not oppertunity in the USA today however just not as much as in most of the 20th Century.

I really like Nevadanick's coment as well. The cost of Lobbyists, Marketing, and demands for rising corporate profits by investors are also what is bringing the US Capitalist system to its knees. I hate to say it but we are collapsing under our own greed. Companies are working in thier investors best short term interest to gain the highest profit possible this quarter by investing money where they see the most imediate return.... Lobbyists and marketing. (why do you think drugs cost so much money when materials and labor to make a pill is $.01???? Marketing and Lobbying).

Personally I think FT/PS/AP messed up by not covering their tails better and for not working with better people on how they received payments. This is on top of not fighting this battle back in 2006! I also think that there was no way for them to get out of this as B&M casinos were coming after them with their $ and no way they can out spend their way out of it. Vegas Casinos were able to take over Vegas from the Maffia.... How do you think a few European companies are going to do?

 

[juice561]

full tilt

hey guys i emailed ftp about a week ago and still no answer but i sent the email to the .co.uk one so is that why since the .com is back up and running or any suggestions?? anyone?

 

[Poof]

hey guys i emailed ftp about a week ago and still no answer but i sent the email to the .co.uk one so is that why since the .com is back up and running or any suggestions?? anyone?

I have not seen a successful story yet of one clearing, but I have not read this whole thread. I would hold it till you start hearing of some clearing, then deposit it and pray.

 

[juice561]

@ Poofy

i deposited those checks and they all bounced for a total of $5,000 but now i can't get in touch with ftp....don't know how to contact them.....support@fulltiltpoker.co.uk isn't working anymore grrrrrrrrrrrr

 

[xdeucesx]

To everyone attempting to withdraw/deposit on FTP/Stars within the US:

Just try and be patient, your money is safe and it will be refunded to you eventually. Attempting to withdraw continually isnt going to work, your going to keep getting the same mssg that withdrawing is currently down.

Be patient, the poker sites are on our side in this situation

 

[Charade You Are]

My email of the day:

The DOJ's action in attempting to enforce the vague laws that continue to obstruct my right to play poker, game of skill, with players from around the world and on the biggest, most trusted sites, is an abomination.

Americans from all walks of life enjoy this great game, from stay at home moms, to disabled veterans, to the thousands of average Americans who earn or supplement their income through online poker winnings.

My first choice would be congressional action to recognize poker as a game of skill, thereby exempting it from the UIGEA. Second would be the passage of HR1174.

We all know this is about the Casinos wanting the pie all to themselves.
I would appreciate a response outlining your views on this issue. Not just the boilerplate answer you all are sending out.

I will be voting this issue. As an independent who voted for Obama, I am regretting that vote as the DOJ would not be doing this without at least tacit approval from the White House.

 

[the Styb]

WindsorJimmy? Just don't have that same cool factor…

 

[DetroitJimmy]

WindsorJimmy? Just don't have that same cool factor…

LOL. I kinda think DetroitJimmy is a little douchey too. Might just stick with my new Carbon nickname. JonnySuckout. Sirbluffsalot was taken already.

 

[juice561]

MY MONEY IS NOT SAFE

my money is not SAFE because it is not in my bank account nor my ftp account.....how to get my money back into my ftp account if your checks were bounced??? easy question.....even a caveman should be able to answer this!


ITS UP IN THE AIR.......and i may never see it grrrr

 

[DetroitJimmy]

my money is not SAFE because it is not in my bank account nor my ftp account.....how to get my money back into my ftp account if your checks were bounced??? easy question.....even a caveman should be able to answer this!


ITS UP IN THE AIR.......and i may never see it grrrr

Same situation here, just far less money. Simple caveman answer is sickening but true: We'll really just have to wait and see.

Not what you want to hear, but true.

 

[OzExorcist]

Interesting post from Wicked Chops looking at some of the myths and misconceptions about Black Friday:

http://wickedchopspoker.com/online-poker-black-fridaytm-separating-myths-from-facts/#more-9674

 

[dj11]

my money is not SAFE because it is not in my bank account nor my ftp account.....how to get my money back into my ftp account if your checks were bounced??? easy question.....even a caveman should be able to answer this!

ITS UP IN THE AIR.......and i may never see it grrrr

You probably will see it...someday. Do not plan this money for anything. It really might be years before any method to move this money from the sites to you is authorized.

At this point the sites will not want to be doing anything that can be used against them in any court proceedings. Their Lawyers are demanding them to do nothing. They can claim, rightfully, that the DoJ's actions and the pending litigation, is what is preventing them from returning your money. They can also claim, rightfully, that stupid, untested, and poorly defined regulations and laws made doing business here difficult, and they were doing what they could to continue doing business here.

What each of us must realize is that there will be so many layers of court proceedings and delays that it could be a very long time, very very long time.

 

[ktx49]

CLARIFICATION:

ok guys ive been reading alot of articles and blogs...tons of forum threads and i just finished reading this one here:

http://www.dragthebar.com/poker-blogs/author/hunter-bick/#jump-post-1263

according to him

1. It is NOT illegal to play online poker in the United States, except in the state of Washington. There is no Federal law that makes it illegal to play poker online.
2. As a player, it is NOT illegal to deposit or withdraw money from an online poker site while in the US, or as a US citizen.
3. The legal landscape for online poker in the US has NOT changed, its the same today as it was last Thursday, the day before Black Friday.
4. The Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA) does not mention poker players. It only mentions payment processing for financial institutions. It stipulates that financial institutions cannot lawfully process "unlawful internet gambling" transactions. However, the law never defines what "unlawful internet gambling" is, what games it applies to, nor does it provide any guidance whatsoever for what "unlawful internet gambling" even means.

so anyways ive posted this elsewhere and have yet to receive a single satisfying answer......if everything he stated above is true and factual, WHY CAN USA PLAYERS NO LONGER PLAY ON POKERSTARS AND FULLTILT?

the DOJ has not targeted any players nor have I seen or read anywhere in the indictment where the sites would need to suspend real money play for US players. as we have also seen, AP/UB is still working for USA players.

so again, how and why are USA players no longer allowed to play and who is implementing and enforcing this??


also, alot of people have been talking about moving out of the country and/or using VPNs etc.....say you were to go through the trouble of setting up a VPN and sending in documents to change ur "residency".......would there really be any dangers in being "caught"? i guess this also goes back to who/what/why we are actually being blocked from playing.

thanks guys

 

[WVHillbilly]

You haven't read this thread very closely then. Because it's been said 100 times. The sites themselves decided to pull out of the US market because the cost of doing business here is just too high now.

So the DoJ isn't stopping you from playing on Stars/Tilt/UB but their action led the sites to stop you from playing. It's also for that reason the VPNs are not a solution. The sites themselves no longer want you as a customer so they will actively be seeking out those trying to get around the regulations. Using a VPN is very likely to cause you to have your funds confiscated.

 

[OzExorcist]

^ this.

It's the sites themselves enforcing the bans on US players, likely because it's possible that being cooperative will help them with the charges they're facing. Plus it's the ethical thing for them to do given that their payment processors have been shut down and they have no way for US players to get their money off the site if they continued to play. It's that simple.

As we discussed a few days back, whether or not players are included in the provisions of the UIEGA depends entirely on how broadly one chooses to interpret the term "engaged in the business of betting or wagering". Players aren't specifically named but they aren't specifically exempt either.

 

[ktx49]

You haven't read this thread very closely then. Because it's been said 100 times. The sites themselves decided to pull out of the US market because the cost of doing business here is just too high now.

So the DoJ isn't stopping you from playing on Stars/Tilt/UB but their action led the sites to stop you from playing. It's also for that reason the VPNs are not a solution. The sites themselves no longer want you as a customer so they will actively be seeking out those trying to get around the regulations. Using a VPN is very likely to cause you to have your funds confiscated.

I know the sites pulled out by themselves, it was more of a rhetorical question to stimulate discussion...didnt come off like that.

my point is that there is really no reason for these sites to shutdown USA accts....unless theres something else we don't know yet(which is obviously the case).

you say the cost of doing business is too high now?
sorry that makes no sense; all you do is suspend USA payment processing, announce it to all USA players letting them play "at their own risk" per say, and continue rubbing USD-rake on titties to help foot the lawyer bill.

we are not getting the full story here, that i'm sure we can all agree on.....

if i had to take a guess, i'd say that they are doing more than being polite and cooperative here....

 

[ktx49]

I've read a lot of these posts and a lot of them point out that it's not legal and not fair. Simply put, the DOJ did it because they could. They wanted to break the back of online poker. This will go through the courts and, perhaps, the DOJ will be found to have acted improperly. Someone in the DOJ will take a fall but by that time the damage will have been done.

In the everday world any law enforcement officer can arrest you for any reason and distrupt your life. Eventually the truth will come out, there will be apologies, and you will be exonerated, but the damage will have been done. You could be jobless and homeless for no reason.

If this was a mainline industry the DOJ would never have shut the whole industry down because of a few weasels. For example there is the list of frozen accounts and there are some big name banks in that list. Did they shut the banks down? They may have but I haven't seen it.

I dislike this as much as the rest of you; however, in a bizarre way, I think this paves the way for legalizing online poker in the US. The demand for US legal online poker has suddenly become immense. Also, there's a chance that all poker sites that will be legal to US players will start out on a level playing field. Hopefully, when that day comes, PS and Fulltilt will be available for US players.

so after everything these sites just put us through FOR THEIR OWN GAINS(lets not forgot that for the past 3 years as their profits climbed, the sites have steadily given less and less back to their customers in the forms of bonuses, promotions, reloads etc....) you're really going to be hopeful that they make a return to the US?

i played on pokerstars.....man those guys were our saviors back after the partypoker days and i loved their customer support, VIP system, software, and big tourneys.....so **** it!!! let's just forget the fact that they were a corrupt and self-serving business enterprise run by Israeli Organized Crime(yes, mafia-type) who didnt hesitate to sacrifice USA poker players and their entire future for online poker....all for a few extra months of profit??


with open arms.....with open arms......
:flowers:

 

[the Styb]

my point is that there is really no reason for these sites to shutdown USA accts....unless theres something else we don't know yet(which is obviously the case).

The reason is that the UIGEA makes it a Federal Crime to process payments to US players through US banks and the wire act makes it illegal to process payments through third party shel companies. I don't think Tilt and Stars have enough lawyers to come to court for every Joe Poker that tries to get a hundred bucks out of his account for the weekend.

The part we "don't know yet" is the part where the US sets up it's own arena for the B&M casinos, uncluttered by the foreign competition and taxed higher than cigarettes and alcohol combined.

…the sites have steadily given less and less back to their customers in the forms of bonuses, promotions, reloads etc...

Are you kidding?! Tilt gave us Rush©TM Poker!!!