Value Betting (Day 7 Course Discussion)

[Polytarp]

That's a nice story. Let me tell you my most recent one. Theres a flop AJQ. I was late position with JJ against two villains. One of the villains bets (he was short-stacked), the chip leader calls (or checked before, cant remember), I raise, the bettor shoves, the chip leader calls, I call.
Here are the hands:
- Bettor: Q2 (short-stack)
- Chip leader: AX (I dont remember what X was, but not a scary card)
- Me: JJ (medium stack)

So there's the quiz question. How did I end up eliminated and the short-stacker became chip leader?

QQQQ?

 

[carmenzu]

That's a nice story. Let me tell you my most recent one. Theres a flop AJQ. I was late position with JJ against two villains. One of the villains bets (he was short-stacked), the chip leader calls (or checked before, cant remember), I raise, the bettor shoves, the chip leader calls, I call.
Here are the hands:
- Bettor: Q2 (short-stack)
- Chip leader: AX (I dont remember what X was, but not a scary card)
- Me: JJ (medium stack)

So there's the quiz question. How did I end up eliminated and the short-stacker became chip leader?

hI birdman666, For me these are the possible turns and river for bettor to win




1.- AJQ Q Q
2.- AJQ Q 2

 

[birdman666]

hI birdman666, For me these are the possible turns and river for bettor to win




1.- AJQ Q Q
2.- AJQ Q 2

AJQQ2 would let me still alive, because I would still win against the chip leader.
So it had to be AJQQQ. The chip leader got a better full house and my jacks got completely counterfeited. Though if 2 aces came intead, it would do the same to me, but also eliminate the short stacker.

 

[gena31]

That's a nice story. Let me tell you my most recent one. Theres a flop AJQ. I was late position with JJ against two villains. One of the villains bets (he was short-stacked), the chip leader calls (or checked before, cant remember), I raise, the bettor shoves, the chip leader calls, I call.
Here are the hands:
- Bettor: Q2 (short-stack)
- Chip leader: AX (I dont remember what X was, but not a scary card)
- Me: JJ (medium stack)

So there's the quiz question. How did I end up eliminated and the short-stacker became chip leader?

I am sure that the player with Q2 won, it often happens like this, that's what it is, people have, say, 3 6 offsuit on the flop, let's say AK10-offsuit call all-in without even having one pair and win

 

[birdman666]

I am sure that the player with Q2 won, it often happens like this, that's what it is, people have, say, 3 6 offsuit on the flop, let's say AK10-offsuit call all-in without even having one pair and win

Yeah the player with Q2 won. But the frustating thing, is that if only the Q2 had won I would not have been eliminated because I had more chips than him. But no, the chip leader also benefited from those 2 queens to get a better full house.

 

[antonis32123]

Yes , value betting is very important , and in tournements especially that concerns me these days , I am afraid to do so if I do no have very strong hand , I see monsters everywhere I will start betting a little by little , the hands I guess they can have a call and are not so dangerous , see later with the more '' spicy'' boards , which btw if I do not value bet I am victim to bluffs oop , sometimes even ip

 

[Collin Moshman]

Yes , value betting is very important , and in tournements especially that concerns me these days , I am afraid to do so if I do no have very strong hand , I see monsters everywhere I will start betting a little by little , the hands I guess they can have a call and are not so dangerous , see later with the more '' spicy'' boards , which btw if I do not value bet I am victim to bluffs oop , sometimes even ip

You need to work on overcoming the mindset that monsters are everywhere. Beating soft games requires making strong hands and betting them. Sometimes you'll run into better, but trust me that it's a winning approach in the long run!

 

[Pichman189]

What I got out of this chapter is:How much money is my opponent willing to pay me for my hand, considering myself my hand as the best.


.

Yes! That's a great question to ask when value betting. Win the most possible and you have a huge part of winning play right there.

I know its very important to do value bet, when i have strong hand, but its a problem for me right now to do right value bet, so that opponent dont fold and bet too.
In other words, I often all in on river with nuts and opponent fold and sometimes i only check and opponent get a free card. But i want to win maximum bank in every situation, when I have monstr or nuts..
But how to make the villain feel that his hand is stronger than mine and put it down. To develop an image or is it just a matter of chance? If it’s a zoom or a boost format, it’s difficult to develop an image there. How do I get my opponents to pay the maximum if my hand is stronger than theirs, how do I make them think that they will win?

 

[Katie Dozier]

I know its very important to do value bet, when i have strong hand, but its a problem for me right now to do right value bet, so that opponent dont fold and bet too.
In other words, I often all in on river with nuts and opponent fold and sometimes i only check and opponent get a free card. But i want to win maximum bank in every situation, when I have monstr or nuts..
But how to make the villain feel that his hand is stronger than mine and put it down. To develop an image or is it just a matter of chance? If it’s a zoom or a boost format, it’s difficult to develop an image there. How do I get my opponents to pay the maximum if my hand is stronger than theirs, how do I make them think that they will win?

Getting value from your strong hands is very important generally speaking, but it’s pretty much impossible to always get max value in literally every hand that you play.

For example, over betting is something that causes you to be called (on average) less frequently—but when you are called you make dramatically more than say a tiny bet that’s extremely likely to be called. In other words, it’s far more important to be setting yourself up to potentially get a lot of value from your strong hands, and I’d suggest focusing more on that long-term goal than on if it leads to max value in an individual hand for now.

Hope this helps

 

[Phyrrura]

This is so good that I'm just watching again

Hey guys, keep on with this course, it will take you to a high level of critic play and will help a lot in decision making in most kinds of trouble spots.

I just finished it this week, and guess what? 1st place at CC $100 daily freeroll in last wednesday.

 

[mrwalleye]

i think it is important..i call them feeler bets

 

[Collin Moshman]

Hey guys, keep on with this course, it will take you to a high level of critic play and will help a lot in decision making in most kinds of trouble spots.

I just finished it this week, and guess what? 1st place at CC $100 daily freeroll in last wednesday.

Thanks so much Phyrrura, and congrats on the 1st place finish!

i think it is important..i call them feeler bets

Generally a feeler or probe bet refers to something a bit different, but I agree that value bets (particularly small ones) can sometimes serve a similar purpose in terms of getting information.

 

[monkey23]

value betting is all about betting the max that you think your customer will pay you in that particular situation, according to their player type, hand history, and specific situation. What story have they told with their betting / behaviour so far..??..

Inducing a bluff can sometimes make more profit...

 

[Collin Moshman]

value betting is all about betting the max that you think your customer will pay you in that particular situation, according to their player type, hand history, and specific situation. What story have they told with their betting / behaviour so far..??..

Inducing a bluff can sometimes make more profit...

That's definitely true Monkey! Check-calling to induce a bluff will sometimes work best such as when an aggressive opponent has a lot of possible missed draws they might bluff.

 

[Pichman189]

Thanks so much Phyrrura, and congrats on the 1st place finish!




Generally a feeler or probe bet refers to something a bit different, but I agree that value bets (particularly small ones) can sometimes serve a similar purpose in terms of getting information.

Getting value from your strong hands is very important generally speaking, but it’s pretty much impossible to always get max value in literally every hand that you play.

For example, over betting is something that causes you to be called (on average) less frequently—but when you are called you make dramatically more than say a tiny bet that’s extremely likely to be called. In other words, it’s far more important to be setting yourself up to potentially get a lot of value from your strong hands, and I’d suggest focusing more on that long-term goal than on if it leads to max value in an individual hand for now.

Hope this helps

I have a question about playing the river.
Here is an example from yesterday's cash game session.
1) preflop: The player in the UPG position bets 3 big blinds. everybody folds, I (Hero) call from bb. My opponent has 176.5bb, I have 558bb.
opponent's stats: 806 hands vpip 26 pfr 15 postflop aggression 1.4 3bet 1.5, my stats 1900/24/18 / 2.5 / 6.6
my cards are 8h 8d
2) flop: 4d 8c Kd
Pot-6.5 bb
Villain bet 5.5bb, Hero reraises 7.5bb
Pot 21.5 bb
3) Turn: Qd
Hero bet 14 bb Villain call
Pot 49.5bb
4) River: 6d
We have on the table 4d 8c Kd Qd 6d
Hero bets 24.5bb (50% pot) with a set of 8.
Villain reraise 108 bb
Hero folds.
Question: Does Villain have a flash of diamonds or a set of kings? I broke my head when analyzing the situation. This is hardly a bluff. This is Nl 2.
I look forward to your comments, and maybe I made some mistakes - did I play correctly and do I have normal statistics for an aggressive poker game?

 

[Collin Moshman]

It looks like in this hand you end up playing the 8d for a flush. This is a great spot to bluff-catch. With the pot already large, it will be tough to get action from a lot of worse hands if you continue betting. So you could check and then call a bet assuming your opponent is aggro / capable of bluffing.

It's never fun to flop a set and get a run-out like that!

 

[Pichman189]

It looks like in this hand you end up playing the 8d for a flush. This is a great spot to bluff-catch. With the pot already large, it will be tough to get action from a lot of worse hands if you continue betting. So you could check and then call a bet assuming your opponent is aggro / capable of bluffing.

It's never fun to flop a set and get a run-out like that!

If there was no chance of a flush, I would either fold or check-raise all in. He probably has 2 kings since he is not inclined to bluff. But this is no longer known (

 

[Pichman189]

It looks like in this hand you end up playing the 8d for a flush. This is a great spot to bluff-catch. With the pot already large, it will be tough to get action from a lot of worse hands if you continue betting. So you could check and then call a bet assuming your opponent is aggro / capable of bluffing.

It's never fun to flop a set and get a run-out like that!

I know, you are very good player in Sit and Go.:icon_sant Give me please 3-5 main advices how to play with good ROI SNG 0,25$ pokerstars 45 people. And whats ROI is good on thih limit.
I want to ask you Master how many tables i must play to be a reg of SNG 0,25$ 45 people 12 tables is good and how many games in a day/week/month you recommend, 50 day, 1000 month?
And last question I think your course is excellent for SNG 0,25$ (45), isn't it?
Is 25$ bankroll managemant is enough for grinding this SNG?

 

[Katie Dozier]

I know, you are very good player in Sit and Go.:icon_sant Give me please 3-5 main advices how to play with good ROI SNG 0,25$ pokerstars 45 people. And whats ROI is good on thih limit.
I want to ask you Master how many tables i must play to be a reg of SNG 0,25$ 45 people 12 tables is good and how many games in a day/week/month you recommend, 50 day, 1000 month?
And last question I think your course is excellent for SNG 0,25$ (45), isn't it?
Is 25$ bankroll managemant is enough for grinding this SNG?

Hope it’s okay if I answer this as I’ve played a whole lot of 45-mans in my day

This course is extremely well suited to beating $.25 45-mans, so rest assured that all you are learning through doing the course is the exact train of thought I would recommend for beating the games you’re playing in. In other words, I find it pretty impossible to dilute it down to the top 5 tips as all the concepts we outline in the course are very important to winning in your games

As for the number of games, I’d say focus on making sure you’re playing a winning A+ style before worrying about playing enough tables which will come with time. A big part of that is because playing more tables than we can actually handle can decrease our ROI, so it can be especially confusing if we have a downswing to know if we are playing well but just have too many tables or if we would make the same decision one-tabling (and thus need to revisit the basics). As the size of our bankroll is in part determined by our ROI, it’s all the more important to get an accurate picture of that.

Hope this helps

 

[Pichman189]

Hope it’s okay if I answer this as I’ve played a whole lot of 45-mans in my day

This course is extremely well suited to beating $.25 45-mans, so rest assured that all you are learning through doing the course is the exact train of thought I would recommend for beating the games you’re playing in. In other words, I find it pretty impossible to dilute it down to the top 5 tips as all the concepts we outline in the course are very important to winning in your games

As for the number of games, I’d say focus on making sure you’re playing a winning A+ style before worrying about playing enough tables which will come with time. A big part of that is because playing more tables than we can actually handle can decrease our ROI, so it can be especially confusing if we have a downswing to know if we are playing well but just have too many tables or if we would make the same decision one-tabling (and thus need to revisit the basics). As the size of our bankroll is in part determined by our ROI, it’s all the more important to get an accurate picture of that.

Hope this helps

Thank you! Yes I think now 16-20 tables in the moment very hard to me. And yesterday 5 places-8 and one 9th (withot prizes/not ITM)says abot it, and only 2 places 2th-so ROI 11% ITM 12,5% playing 16 tourneys. But i know for 025 SNG 45-max its norm to have ROI 40%+ but not 11%. So I sad about it/ But I use all conception from your course, espesially topics- Agression, Should you C-bet and Pot control) Now I play very agressive and its the reason when I all in preflop with A Q vs maniacs in the beginning of SNG (about 1st 10 hands), sometimes I have Bad Beats but I try to play TAG with my A+ play. Hope my ROI in SNG will be 50%+ soon.:icon_sant

 

[Collin Moshman]

Yes definitely do start with a large number of tables, 1-2 is plenty to get going and here is the important thing:

You'll need a big sample of games before you know your true ROI.

If you play 10 or so games, sometimes you'll bust all of them out of the money and sometimes you'll have an ROI of 300%. So don't worry too much about the short term results. Play your best and the results will come in time!

 

[Collin Moshman]

By the way: To add to Katie's answer on your last question, to me the three main skills for beating micro SNG are...

** Play tight-aggressive / good hand selection
** Value betting
** Shove/Fold ranges in the late game

If you do well with these three, you should have a solid ROI in micro 45-man.

 

[imnoobpoker]

Thank you for day 7, amazing!

- Hand in the video: TKo, when the guy bet big in the beginning, I'm not that type of person who is gonna call if I do not hit anything on the flop. What can I do to look behind this, and say oke I call this guy and see that kind of value this will be.

 

[Collin Moshman]

Thank you for day 7, amazing!

- Hand in the video: TKo, when the guy bet big in the beginning, I'm not that type of person who is gonna call if I do not hit anything on the flop. What can I do to look behind this, and say oke I call this guy and see that kind of value this will be.

Thanks!

Keep thinking about ranges: What your opponent is likely betting (such as a routine c-bet or when it means more strength), hands that are strong enough to bet for value, etc.

 

[Edgerik]

Excellent video, it is always good to refresh knowledge and eliminate bad habits.