The Two Types of Equity (Day 4 Course Discussion)

[Collin Moshman]

I just finished watching Day #3 and #4 and those videos really complement each other, really great content!

Also I realise I've been using fold equity pretty much on spots close to the bubble or the final table, this not the first time I hear about fold equity but I didn't quite know exactly what it was, it's nice to understand the specific move I'm making now

Awesome, very glad to hear that!

 

[Poma Lekain]

On the river, even a hand can win, the probability of victory of which was 1%. It only means that for 100 such cases, such a hand can win 1 time. Or maybe 10 out of 1000. And so on. And it is not known when this will happen. There is even such a chance that this will happen 10 times in a row, and the next 990 times will not happen.

 

[1nsomn1a]

Thanks for new information

 

[koXhunter]

actually i don t know what is equity i just play my game wish for some luck and try to won some money that is my way of playing pokeeer

 

[Collin Moshman]

On the river, even a hand can win, the probability of victory of which was 1%. It only means that for 100 such cases, such a hand can win 1 time. Or maybe 10 out of 1000. And so on. And it is not known when this will happen. There is even such a chance that this will happen 10 times in a row, and the next 990 times will not happen.

That's correct. If you have, for example, 10% equity pre-flop -- you'll lose 90% of the time. But it is possible that the next five such all-ins, you'll win every one. (Probability and statistics can give us likelihoods for such unusual events happening.) So that's a good point to keep in mind, thanks for posting.

 

[Anders1616]

Very interesting with the two types of Equity.

 

[Tux97]

It's not easy to just know equities when playing live poker, don't worry! Learn the concepts, let them guide your decision-making. But the goal isn't for example to have A6o, put an opponent on a range of top 35%, and say you have 46% equity against that range. Just do your best and practice

Useful reply thanks. I was worried that too much exact memorization is essential. I definitely get the idea but it's a different matter altogether to come up with the equities when playing live or online without timely access to equity calculators.

 

[Tux97]

Basically we have to know the player's range of cards to have a more accurate idea of equity, AA against a tight nit player is not the same as against a manic player.



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I would like someone to correct me if I am wrong please but isn't equity independent from player style? In other words, the calculation of equity should not be influenced by villain's or hero's image.

I can see why some people in this thread referred to player style when mentioning fold equity by taking the qualitative definition in the chapter (i.e. how likely villain will fold if hero bets) but I would like to know if this is what is meant or is fold equity also independent from how a player is perceived on the table?

A minor thing, the screenshot of hand 4-1 should swap the players' positions.

 

[Dkerridge14]

I would like someone to correct me if I am wrong please but isn't equity independent from player style? In other words, the calculation of equity should not be influenced by villain's or hero's image.

I can see why some people in this thread referred to player style when mentioning fold equity by taking the qualitative definition in the chapter (i.e. how likely villain will fold if hero bets) but I would like to know if this is what is meant or is fold equity also independent from how a player is perceived on the table?

A minor thing, the screenshot of hand 4-1 should swap the players' positions.

Equity will change depending upon which hands remain.
Hands like T9s will have more equity playing from button vs blinds rather than defending vs a UTG raise because of the tighter ranges to do with position.
Ranges are also influenced by play style eg. Tight player release less equity vs loose players
If that makes sense

 

[Collin Moshman]

I would like someone to correct me if I am wrong please but isn't equity independent from player style? In other words, the calculation of equity should not be influenced by villain's or hero's image.

I can see why some people in this thread referred to player style when mentioning fold equity by taking the qualitative definition in the chapter (i.e. how likely villain will fold if hero bets) but I would like to know if this is what is meant or is fold equity also independent from how a player is perceived on the table?

A minor thing, the screenshot of hand 4-1 should swap the players' positions.

Percent equities are definitely independent of style and image. Fold equity depends on perception/image as the tighter you're perceived to be, the more fold equity you'll generally have. But all other types of equity should be independent.

 

[Tux97]

Percent equities are definitely independent of style and image. Fold equity depends on perception/image as the tighter you're perceived to be, the more fold equity you'll generally have. But all other types of equity should be independent.

Thanks for clarifying this point Collin. Does position affect fold equity at all? My guess is that it shouldn't but I may well be wrong.

 

[morthiman]

Is it possible to use equity to calculate the ideal amount of chips we should use on a semi bluff?

I mean, EX:

we put hero on a 20% equity, enemy has 80%.

POT is 900

According to equity, if he bets we should call anything that less than 20% of the pot right?

but...

If we wanna re-raise? Is there any way to calculate what is the right amount based on equity?

 

[jeanpierre1279]

For some reason I find this one of the most difficult topics. I kind of understand on an intellectual level when it is described, but find it difficult in practice, especially live at the tables. Maybe it's my age?

Maybe it's because when you know the hands it's straight forward enough, but when working with a potential range, you don't have time to use something like equilab at the table and, especially at micro stakes, the ranges are often so wide. But this is definitely an area that I need to work on.

Never put your age as a hindrance to learning. We will always learn throughout our life.

I also started playing late and I've been improving my game a lot with this course and books I've been reading.

In the case of this topic it is really very difficult for everyone at first but when you see that you lose a lot of hands in the same way, your brain will already think that the hand you thought was so good is not so good against others and, unconsciously, it will be calculating equity.

I also recommend going from time to time to see the table of ranges and draws, over time you will see that it is something wrong to play pre-flop or to continue hand post-flop in some situations where you would play and lose before.

good luck.

 

[Collin Moshman]

Thanks for clarifying this point Collin. Does position affect fold equity at all? My guess is that it shouldn't but I may well be wrong.

Yes it does! Great question. You'll sometimes have much less fold equity, for example, if you raise the small blind and c-bet flop vs the big blind, compared to if you raise UTG and c-bet vs the big blind. The reason is that the big blind will know you're on a much wider range when you're in the small blind. He'll also have position against you.

So there are a lot of times when your position can affect your fold equity.

Is it possible to use equity to calculate the ideal amount of chips we should use on a semi bluff?

I mean, EX:

we put hero on a 20% equity, enemy has 80%.

POT is 900

According to equity, if he bets we should call anything that less than 20% of the pot right?

but...

If we wanna re-raise? Is there any way to calculate what is the right amount based on equity?

It's possible to relate your bet and raise-sizes with your frequency of bluffs relative to value bets, although that's a fairly advanced topic that goes beyond the scope of this first course. As a general principle, the higher your value betting frequency, the smaller you should bet. That's the result in theory at least

 

[Collin Moshman]

Also Morthiman, one slight change to your 80%/20% example --

If we have 20% equity, we can usually call a bet of up to 33% of pot. The reason is that if the pot is $75, for example, and Villain bets $25 ... then we're getting odds of $100 : $25 or 4:1 which corresponds to 20% equity.

Hope that makes sense!

 

[1nsomn1a]

very interesting ideas are set out in your course, thank you,
this is the case when I intuitively understand, but I can not formulate exactly to save as a rule in memory. You saved me from puzzles, that's great!

 

[Tux97]

Yes it does! Great question. You'll sometimes have much less fold equity, for example, if you raise the small blind and c-bet flop vs the big blind, compared to if you raise UTG and c-bet vs the big blind. The reason is that the big blind will know you're on a much wider range when you're in the small blind. He'll also have position against you.

So there are a lot of times when your position can affect your fold equity.




It's possible to relate your bet and raise-sizes with your frequency of bluffs relative to value bets, although that's a fairly advanced topic that goes beyond the scope of this first course. As a general principle, the higher your value betting frequency, the smaller you should bet. That's the result in theory at least

Many thanks Collin. That clarifies fold equity.

 

[meagain00]

Hi all. Day #4 done!

The concept of Equity is kinda hard for me, I can understand how it works, but don't have the expertise to use in a short time as needed. I think the ICM I use more often. I am always looking the number os players x the ITM x my stack, and sometimes I fold KK or AA (in a multiway PF pot, 4 or 5 all ins until me close to the bubble when I'm short).

I consider myself able to apply this lesson with more time thinking about. For now I still have difficulties. Thanks CC for bring this topic to us.

meagain00

 

[Collin Moshman]

Hi all. Day #4 done!

The concept of Equity is kinda hard for me, I can understand how it works, but don't have the expertise to use in a short time as needed. I think the ICM I use more often. I am always looking the number os players x the ITM x my stack, and sometimes I fold KK or AA (in a multiway PF pot, 4 or 5 all ins until me close to the bubble when I'm short).

I consider myself able to apply this lesson with more time thinking about. For now I still have difficulties. Thanks CC for bring this topic to us.

meagain00

Don't worry, most of the time equity isn't something you need to calculate in-game. The idea is that we're using it as a building block -- so long as you understand the concept of the different types of equity, you should be ready to move on to day 5

 

[morthiman]

Lesson learned

"As a general principle, the higher your value betting frequency, the smaller you should bet. That's the result in theory at least "


I Will take this from now on. Thx

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[makisaa]

This is maths, and it is very important in the game! From mathematics view, everything is maths!

 

[Katie Dozier]

This is maths, and it is very important in the game! From mathematics view, everything is maths!

Pretty much everything is math, I agree! If only I'd learned this back in school--I feel like I would've been much more interested in the subject back then lol

 

[johnnylawford]

Equity in bounty tournaments

This is a great chapter, I think there's so much to cover in calculating equity too. I would like to see some inclusion of how bounties in tournaments effects your equity calculations. For instance if you have 40% equity against someone's range, but you have them covered for a bounty worth more than the next 3 pay jumps how do you calculate that into your pre-flop equity?

 

[Katie Dozier]

This is a great chapter, I think there's so much to cover in calculating equity too. I would like to see some inclusion of how bounties in tournaments effects your equity calculations. For instance if you have 40% equity against someone's range, but you have them covered for a bounty worth more than the next 3 pay jumps how do you calculate that into your pre-flop equity?

There are many different types of poker software that can help you most accurately take bounties into account as a tool for studying (though of course that is prohibited for using in game), and I'd recommend pulling that up to answer any specific situations with total accuracy. My favorite is ICMizer.

The most important thing is to keep the size of the bounty in mind (as your question already indicates you're doing so well done ). As you imagine, the effects of a huge bounty can be radical. I used to play these 15,000 FPP "Celebrity" SNGs on Stars that I loved, where the stars pro of the week had a significant bounty on them--I believe it was $500 which was as much as 2nd place.

I remember a spot where the celebrity that week was short and I wound up shoving around 40 bbs UTG+1 or something radical with 5-high. I was pleased when after my session I double-checked the math and it was indeed profitable. Hopefully it was the only time I've ever re-shoved that deep with 5-high lol Just sharing the anecdote as a barometer for how extreme the effects of a big bounty can be.

 

[marvinsytan]

My equity for watching this video is 100%