Thinking in Ranges (Day 3 Course Discussion)

[antonis32123]

Planning your next moves , based on the opponent's range of cardsis essential , in order to improve ypour resultrs and decisions . The more info you have on him , the better and more right ranges I guess you can predict for his hands on most occassions

About the video quiz , I would put him directly to KK+ , or less to AKs or AK , nothing else . Ofcourse the stack after him that shoved , the bigger stack ,covered all players , he could have a wider range of shoves , so elli was his name ?? He could call I guess with more hands like QQ , or even JJ , but wider than that I don't think .personally directly I would put him to KK or AA , less to AKo or AKs , anything else would be too risky These big stacks , damn , they shove ATC and win , lol

 

[Collin Moshman]

Planning your next moves , based on the opponent's range of cardsis essential , in order to improve ypour resultrs and decisions . The more info you have on him , the better and more right ranges I guess you can predict for his hands on most occassions

About the video quiz , I would put him directly to KK+ , or less to AKs or AK , nothing else . Ofcourse the stack after him that shoved , the bigger stack ,covered all players , he could have a wider range of shoves , so elli was his name ?? He could call I guess with more hands like QQ , or even JJ , but wider than that I don't think .personally directly I would put him to KK or AA , less to AKo or AKs , anything else would be too risky These big stacks , damn , they shove ATC and win , lol

This is the key skill sometimes: Putting ourselves in our opponents' shoes (or seats!) to assess their ranges based on what we would play if we were them.

 

[Collin Moshman]

classe perfeita 3
Estou constantemente me perguntando qual é o alcance do meu oponente, no entanto, o oponente provavelmente está fazendo a mesma coisa! Então, para planejar meus movimentos com eficiência, preciso analisar o que ele pensa do meu range, ou seja, se meu range for muito forte, ele jogará com cautela, se estiver fraco demais, estará confiante em jogar suas mãos.

Obrigado Marcio! Estamos muito felizes por você aproveitar a lição de hoje sobre os ranges

 

[Dhendrixon]

Lesson 2 and 3 go together very well. When are able to put villian on a range of hands and know what cards are not in his hand, then you are able to exploit them. An example would be a 4 card straight on board on the river (4s, Kc, 6d, 5c, 7s) - preflop action was villian in position UTG 1 and you on button as hero calling with a suited connector. Villian most likely to have AQ+ and maybe any pocket pair. Villian likely having pocket 8's is unlikely, but possible and hero has the the more likely chance of having an 8 in his range on the button and therefore making a strong value bet or shove if villian bet the river.

 

[Collin Moshman]

Lesson 2 and 3 go together very well. When are able to put villian on a range of hands and know what cards are not in his hand, then you are able to exploit them. An example would be a 4 card straight on board on the river (4s, Kc, 6d, 5c, 7s) - preflop action was villian in position UTG 1 and you on button as hero calling with a suited connector. Villian most likely to have AQ+ and maybe any pocket pair. Villian likely having pocket 8's is unlikely, but possible and hero has the the more likely chance of having an 8 in his range on the button and therefore making a strong value bet or shove if villian bet the river.

Thanks Dhendrixon, that was definitely the goal to have the days blend well into each other!

 

[Edison A]

All players have favorite ranges, I like to play without pressure and comfortable, I do not just play ranges that compromise a lot of money, I am very conservative about that

 

[iv_horsemen]

Thinking this way has really helped my game out. I can recognize more often now what I'm playing against. I can get out of trouble like when straight of flush draws complete against my weaker 2 pair or set. Where I might not have recognized that previously. Putting your opponent on a range early is key.

 

[Katie Dozier]

Thinking this way has really helped my game out. I can recognize more often now what I'm playing against. I can get out of trouble like when straight of flush draws complete against my weaker 2 pair or set. Where I might not have recognized that previously. Putting your opponent on a range early is key.

Totally agree with you and that's awesome to be able to see huge improvements in your game like that--it's such a nice feeling to be able to see and understand spots that would've flown over our head before we put in the effort to get better--well done!

 

[Vallet]

I would put the villain in the tightest hand range here QQ+.
Thinking in ranges is one of my favorite topics in the book. We narrow the range of the opponent step by step during the hand and determine it on the river. Sometimes determining the exact range of cards on the showdown brings more joy than the win itself.

 

[Katie Dozier]

I would put the villain in the tightest hand range here QQ+.
Thinking in ranges is one of my favorite topics in the book. We narrow the range of the opponent step by step during the hand and determine it on the river. Sometimes determining the exact range of cards on the showdown brings more joy than the win itself.

I totally agree—especially with your last line! Some of the absolute most satisfying hands I’ve ever played weren’t the spots where I made the most but the spots where I was able to range my opponent very well—really it’s doing an awesome job with this skill is the most fun part about poker when we stop and think about it!

 

[BigDice75]

My answer to the quiz on day 3 was: Eloy's range is KK+, AKs. Since I don't speak English, I think I understand that I failed the exam. My question is, would it be correct if I add QQ in that range or would I have to add AKo as well?
Watching the video I understood that when considering a range there must be a balance between the hands that are pairs and those that are not. Is this correct?

Finally, a question that arises when reading the book's lesson.
On day 3 of the book the following sentence comes out:

At the flop, his range is still almost as wide when he checks since that passive action also gives us very little information.

On day 2 we learned that the only passive action was to call and in this case the player is checking.

 

[Collin Moshman]

My answer to the quiz on day 3 was: Eloy's range is KK+, AKs. Since I don't speak English, I think I understand that I failed the exam. My question is, would it be correct if I add QQ in that range or would I have to add AKo as well?
Watching the video I understood that when considering a range there must be a balance between the hands that are pairs and those that are not. Is this correct?

Finally, a question that arises when reading the book's lesson.
On day 3 of the book the following sentence comes out:
On day 2 we learned that the only passive action was to call and in this case the player is checking.

Your answer passes the quiz since it is just wider than the tightest allowed range to pass the test

Yes, you want the range to be "congruent" in the sense that similar-strength paired and unpaired hands are grouped together, for example, 77 with AJ instead of 22 with AJ.

The book sentence you quote -- You're completely right. Checking is a neutral action and not a passive one. Thanks for pointing this out!

 

[userme4321]

Important to think in ranges, works best with serious players. Some players tend more to play there position (day 1) + aggression (day 2) and leave (day 3) to others like me. eloytuga2015 widest range 88+, A10s+ A10o+ tightest range JJ+. I think the CO got caught being overly aggressive and that eloytuga2015 is statistically favored to win. Looking forward to day 4

 

[CMack3]

Thinking in Ranges Day 3

Wow. That was great. I am starting to sound like a broken record but, give credit where credit is due. Well explained and easy to understand on a very complex topic that you could probably write a book on. The course so far is very well laid out. You really cannot understand Ranges without understanding Position and Aggression.

In my opinion, this is clearly ONE OF the top skills a winning poker player has. Obviously obtained over time, observation and practice. That being said, how would you recommend someone help themselves learn this skill. Initially sitting with a hand chart while playing? I would assume watching back hands and practicing reading ranges is helpful but, is there poker software while playing or studying that assist with this? Any other recommendations?

On a more selfish note, I am currently only playing one site free money games, more to learn the functionality of the site (before I deposit $$) than for play or to improve poker skills. I have no tools of any kind (software for playing or studying), so I am looking for advise on this.

Peace and thank you

 

[Collin Moshman]

Wow. That was great. I am starting to sound like a broken record but, give credit where credit is due. Well explained and easy to understand on a very complex topic that you could probably write a book on. The course so far is very well laid out. You really cannot understand Ranges without understanding Position and Aggression.

In my opinion, this is clearly ONE OF the top skills a winning poker player has. Obviously obtained over time, observation and practice. That being said, how would you recommend someone help themselves learn this skill. Initially sitting with a hand chart while playing? I would assume watching back hands and practicing reading ranges is helpful but, is there poker software while playing or studying that assist with this? Any other recommendations?

On a more selfish note, I am currently only playing one site free money games, more to learn the functionality of the site (before I deposit $$) than for play or to improve poker skills. I have no tools of any kind (software for playing or studying), so I am looking for advise on this.

Peace and thank you

Thanks Cmack! We’re really glad you’re enjoying the course and that sounds like a good plan getting used to the functionality of the site first.

The best way to learn ranges is just practice. Think about what your own full range is in different spots. Speak in ranges instead of hands wherever possible, and you’ll start feeling better at this skill quickly!

Also we talk a lot more about this as the course progresses, particularly the section on logic and hand reading

 

[alienat3d]

@Collin & Katie, Thanks for another great article and video! Thinking in ranges is essential indeed. I think basically what you're doing, when thinking in ranges is that go from guessing to calculating risks.

Texas Holdem is a game with lack of information and you never can be sure, that your villain plays exactly one hand from 1326 possible starting hands (minus one you're holding), so the only right approach is to assume, he has number of hands in this and that situation, with given action. Of course we will be false sometimes, as it been pointed at the article and in video by Collin, but it's not about that we always have to be right. It's about how often we'll be right. And by thinking in ranges, instead of putting a villain on a specific hand, we'll be just much more often correct with the assumptions.

p.s. Forget dnegs, who pointing an exact hand of his villain is holding and is being often right by that. (They're probably cutting-off on television the moments when he is wrong, LOL.) He is a great poker player, but also a big showman. What he doing is actually narrowing the range of the villain, picking some hand from that range and basically guessing aloud and being correct sometimes. And it makes the "WOW-Effect", as if he actually knew from the beginning on, what his villain had. But it's just a show, as we know it. Nobody has abilities to guess exact hand and even if the range became super-narrow, there are still some of variants, right. And that's where come another considerations in play, such as "how often I beat his range and how often he beats me?" or "is it correct price to pay, given current equity against the range?"

 

[alienat3d]

@Collin & Katie, Any tips on how to train even more the abilities of putting the villains on specific range correctly? Just by putting hours in analyzing hands, is it correct?

I've heard once an interesting thought in some poker coaching video, that you might learn "the putting on range skills" by using some Poker Tracking software like PT4 or HM3 or something similar with the filters and hand history review option. So basically what he recommends there: to set up the filters that way, so you have only the hands with Showdown and then you play sort of game: putting the villain on range on the Preflop, watching in replayer how the hand develops and do adjustments to the range with each street, just like you said in your video to Day 3. And then look at the showdown if you were correct and the actual villain's hand fits in the range you put him on.

I think it's kind of cool way of training this particular skill, what are your thoughts on it?

I also have another question, please. How would you create your own ranges, if you had none? With some specific software like ICMizer and GTO Solver or better find already pre-made ranges made by Professionals?

I'm not new to poker and have a rough understanding of what Open Ranges should be from specific positions and which are 3-bet hands and which definitely a fold, but often I'm really struggling with some kind of "not sure if" hands. I think I do over-folding sometimes and must have do raise more often or call with the line of marginal hands too, but I never know for sure with them and want to improve this. Any ideas how to do that, please?

Thanks in advance!

Cheers,
Al

 

[Collin Moshman]

Thanks for the nice words Al!

We give many more tips for putting opponents on ranges in the section on logic and hand reading so don’t worry! The key idea on generating ranges when you’re unsure is to start with your own range.

For example, if you would move all in with top pair or better in a spot, if you’re unsure on your opponent’s specific tendencies, then start with the guess that this will also be their approximate range.

Hope that helps and good luck as you progress through the course!

 

[Good Man]

As I understand it, the video shows standard range thinking. But often there are different cases, there are players who just call with a pair of K-K, or with A-K, there are players who put 3bet with A-2o despite the position, I also met players who put 3bet with 3-4o. This happens often in tournaments where there are a lot of newcomers. I can say that for most players, this video provides fundamental knowledge in thinking ranges.

 

[frazzle1991]

Love the insight gents, i need to commit to finishing this course

 

[Katie Dozier]

As I understand it, the video shows standard range thinking. But often there are different cases, there are players who just call with a pair of K-K, or with A-K, there are players who put 3bet with A-2o despite the position, I also met players who put 3bet with 3-4o. This happens often in tournaments where there are a lot of newcomers. I can say that for most players, this video provides fundamental knowledge in thinking ranges.

Certainly true that there are players that you can gain very specific reads on over time, but even in those situations we want to be thinking in ranges as described in this section. In those spots, it can look like “well there’s a higher chance this opponent has 43o than normal” and weight the range in that direction.

Very occasionally spots come up where only one hand really makes sense, but even then the way to get there is just deduction like we show in this section Even though those situations are over represented on TV/movies so it seems like they’re more common scenarios than they are in everyday poker.

 

[fundiver199]

As I understand it, the video shows standard range thinking. But often there are different cases, there are players who just call with a pair of K-K, or with A-K, there are players who put 3bet with A-2o despite the position, I also met players who put 3bet with 3-4o. This happens often in tournaments where there are a lot of newcomers. I can say that for most players, this video provides fundamental knowledge in thinking ranges.

Of course we never have perfect information, but this is also not nessesary. We just need to know enough about our opponents range to classify our own hand strenght correctly. Like do we have a value hand, do we have showdown value, do we have a semi-bluff or do we have a pure bluff.

There is always going to be the odd 5% or 10%, where people show up with some bizarre slowplay or a weird bluff. But generally this will not matter, as long as we just keep on playing solid poker ourself. If for instance we have AQ on Q9472 rainbow, and the opponent just calls us all the way down with KK, that does not mean, we did anything wrong. Sure he got us to valueown ourselfes with our TPTK, but he is giving up on a ton of EV elsewhere.

Also if someone is out of line with their 3-bets, then we should be able to pick up that kind of read either manually or via our HUD. And then we should of course stop folding so much to his 3-bets. Instead we should call more and also 4-bet more. And again it does not really matter, if his range contain exactly A2o or 43o. We just need to know, its very wide, and a hand like AJ might then be a 4-bet for value.

 

[Collin Moshman]

While Katie and Fundiver answer the question very well, I'll just add that if you're very concerned with accuracy the technical way to construct a range would be weighted by probabilities.

In fact, the most recent version of ICMizer allows you to discount specific hand combinations that you put inside your opponent's range.

Generally though, you get the vast majority of the benefit without going through the more complicated process by just thinking about likely hands for your opponent to play in a certain way and accepting that sometimes your opponents will surprise you with a hand outside this range

 

[Freepokerfree]

Hi all!

It seems fundamental to me to know the range of the opponent's hands, the great key, that is my way of seeing the game in the present. We will have to develop that ability or virtue of play!
I suppose, since I have never played, that in live poker there are more tools to use, I also suppose it is another skill to develop!


Greetings
King of nature and life

 

[jkersten]

Nowadays it is not wise to put an opponent on one hand from the start, but on the river players can make a good estimate of which hands the opponent might have.