Collin Moshman
Poker Expert
Silver Level
That's an interesting idea, I'll give it more thought -- it's great that you're giving these topics independent thought and coming to your own strategy ideas!
That's an interesting idea, I'll give it more thought -- it's great that you're giving these topics independent thought and coming to your own strategy ideas!
Z
Zirkzee
Rock Star
Silver Level
Whether you c-bet depends on many factors. How many opponents called your raise preflop? How do you rate your opponents? bluffing calling stations is money wasted. And then it also depends on how your hand is and which cards came on the flop. Let's say you raised with AK preflop. The flop comes Q83 rainbow. Apart from a weak draw, namely 2 overcards, you have nothing. Still, I'd raise one or two opponents on this flop. They may also not have hit anything and will get out. You can also represent a top pair because you may well have raised with AQ preflop. It looks different if the flop brings T9J and two cards have the same symbol. The flop is very drawy. Many opponents can have hit something. Here I would advise against a c-bet if you haven't hit anything yourself.
Z
Zirkzee
Rock Star
Silver Level
If you have top pair with top kicker or an over pair after the flop, I would always c-bet. Unless the flop, for example, brings three cards of the same symbol and you have an overpair and no flash draw. If there is a lot of action going on before or after you then you have probably already been beaten and even if you still have the best hand there are many ways to beat you. Otherwise I would always bet to protect your hand and to place value bets.
P
P1R35
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I guess it’s hard to create rules/guidelines for OOP play that’s what it’s so hard to play OOP
It’s very sensitive also, like it will be very different when we are UTG vs UTG1 and for example SB vs BB etc.
But perhaps there could be some useful questions before we bet that helps us choose best/logical sizing when OOP?
Collin Moshman
Poker Expert
Silver Level
Nicely said, although with AsAd on 8h 5h 2h for example, you could still definitely c-bet but for sure have to be cautious in these spots particularly when they're multi-way or the 4th heart comes on the turn or river.
I guess it’s hard to create rules/guidelines for OOP play that’s what it’s so hard to play OOP
It’s very sensitive also, like it will be very different when we are UTG vs UTG1 and for example SB vs BB etc.
But perhaps there could be some useful questions before we bet that helps us choose best/logical sizing when OOP?
Good question! I would still use similar sizing to the book guidelines when OOP. For example, whether IP or OOP, if I'm c-betting a very coordinated flop I would usually choose a larger sizing like 70% of pot.
Collin Moshman
Poker Expert
Silver Level
In a given spot, I would usually use just one sizing. In other words: Given that it's a coordinated flop and I'm deep against my opponent, I would normally just have one sizing of around 2/3 pot.
I think against weak/inobservant players though, it's fine to have multiple sizings exploitively. For example, you bet more on the coordinated flops with stronger hands and less when you mainly just want to pick up the pot those times he hasn't connected.
imnoobpoker
Rock Star
Silver Level
Really enjoyed this course today!
After a day off, I'm full back at this Cardschat school!
C-betting is something I do already for a long time, however my tip is to play so many hands and recognize situations, that making a c-betting can pay you off!
My question for today is, what do you recommend to c-bet with? 3x? 2x? Most of the time I c-bet, making a 3bet.
After a day off, I'm full back at this Cardschat school!
C-betting is something I do already for a long time, however my tip is to play so many hands and recognize situations, that making a c-betting can pay you off!
My question for today is, what do you recommend to c-bet with? 3x? 2x? Most of the time I c-bet, making a 3bet.
C
Clean
Rock Star
Silver Level
No, Waite for the flopShould You C-Bet is a question we all ask ourselves in every game or session we play.
If you have not yet read Day 8 and watched the video for Day 8 - take a few minutes now to do that and then come back here to discuss it:
Should You C-Bet
Collin refers to c-betting as the easiest way to win a pot.But there are times we need to refrain and he walks us through these situations.
Answer the questions at the end of the course and take the quiz. Let's discuss c-betting in this thread and Collin and Katie will be joining us to answer your questions.
Collin Moshman
Poker Expert
Silver Level
That's great Imnoob!
When you say to c-bet with, do you mean what sizing to use? If so I would normally bet around 1/2 the pot as a default. If you're asking something else then just let me know and I'm happy to elaborate
imnoobpoker
Rock Star
Silver Level
After learning from this chapter, I would like to ask: Did I made here a correct C-bet? Was it correct the C-bet here? I didn't call, but did I had to call? C-betting can be strong in this case, but a reraise I didn't expect.
Pacific Poker - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
BTN: 180 BB
SB: 100 BB
BB: 112 BB
UTG: 125.5 BB
Hero (MP): 40.5 BB
CO: 53 BB
SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB
Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 9♠ 9♥
fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, BB calls 2 BB
Flop: (6.5 BB, 2 players) 7♣ 8♥ Q♦
BB checks, Hero bets 4 BB, BB raises to 12 BB, fold
BB wins 14 BB
Thank you for explaining and helping me in this course!
Pacific Poker - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
BTN: 180 BB
SB: 100 BB
BB: 112 BB
UTG: 125.5 BB
Hero (MP): 40.5 BB
CO: 53 BB
SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB
Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 9♠ 9♥
fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, BB calls 2 BB
Flop: (6.5 BB, 2 players) 7♣ 8♥ Q♦
BB checks, Hero bets 4 BB, BB raises to 12 BB, fold
BB wins 14 BB
Thank you for explaining and helping me in this course!
Katie Dozier
Poker Expert
Silver Level
Yes, I agree with how you played the hand! I would have c-bet as well, but when we’re check raised that usually indicates a pretty strong range and most of the time we’re beat. I would’ve folded too—but that doesn’t mean you were wrong to c-bet. You played this hand well!
Katie Dozier
Poker Expert
Silver Level
In terms of not c-betting, if the flop is wet, I'm still trying to wrap my head around this concept. Is the following flop too wet to c-bet?
Not sure if it’s because I’m on my phone but would you mind typing the flop again as it isn’t showing up in that format for me so I can answer? Sorry about that!
xOneCoolHandx
Legend
Bronze Level
Hand 1: A3s -- No cbet. While this hand is great for your range, you have too many opponents in the pot and because it pretty wet with suited and semi-connected cards (esp 2 big ones), one of your opponents is likely to have connected well with this flop. I would have made a small bet on the river too or check-called. Seems like if the button had a K or a jack (and probably even an 8) they would have bet in position on the flop or turn when it was checked to him. I think they would also at least semi-bluff a flush draw on the turn. So, the river bet, especially the sizing is suspicious to me and I would make the call.
Hand 2: 98o -- Great spot for a cbet since you are only against one opponent who has a very wide range and you can improve your hand on future streets if he decides to continue.
Hand 2: 98o -- Great spot for a cbet since you are only against one opponent who has a very wide range and you can improve your hand on future streets if he decides to continue.
Collin Moshman
Poker Expert
Silver Level
In terms of not c-betting, if the flop is wet, I'm still trying to wrap my head around this concept. Is the following flop too wet to c-bet?
Any flop all of one suit would generally be considered coordinated. So on this T62ccc flop, I would usually check back random hands like Qs8d.
SeniorTurtle
Rising Star
Bronze Level
was c-betting the proper play here?
So, I'm trying to apply the principles from the course into my play. So, here's a hand from an online freeroll that I played. Was the correct play to c-bet the flop which I did, or instead, check the flop, and then call a bet on the turn if Villain bets?
[FONT=Lato, sans-serif]
[/FONT]Online Freeroll - Holdem - 8 players
Early-stage of the freeroll
UTG: 75 BB (Villain)
MP: 72 BB
LO: 72 BB
HJ: 72 BB
CO: 65 BB (Hero)
BTN: 72 BB
SB: 182 BB
BB: 59 BB
SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB
Pre Flop:(pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K♠8♠
UTG (Villain) limps, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, BB calls 2 BB, UTG (Villain) calls 2 BB
Flop:(9.5 BB, 3 players) 6♣ 9♥ J♠
BB checks, UTG (Villain) checks, Hero bets 4.75 BB, BB folds, Villain calls
Turn:(19 BB, 2 players) Q♥
UTG (Villain) checks, Hero bets 9.50 BB, Villain calls
River:(38 BB, 2 players) A♦
UTG (Villain) checks, Hero checks
Villain shows K♦T♦
Villain wins the pot with A-T straight
Looking back probably K8s was a little too weak to open facing a single limper from EP.
So, I'm trying to apply the principles from the course into my play. So, here's a hand from an online freeroll that I played. Was the correct play to c-bet the flop which I did, or instead, check the flop, and then call a bet on the turn if Villain bets?
[FONT=Lato, sans-serif]
[/FONT]Online Freeroll - Holdem - 8 players
Early-stage of the freeroll
UTG: 75 BB (Villain)
MP: 72 BB
LO: 72 BB
HJ: 72 BB
CO: 65 BB (Hero)
BTN: 72 BB
SB: 182 BB
BB: 59 BB
SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB
Pre Flop:(pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K♠8♠
UTG (Villain) limps, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, BB calls 2 BB, UTG (Villain) calls 2 BB
Flop:(9.5 BB, 3 players) 6♣ 9♥ J♠
BB checks, UTG (Villain) checks, Hero bets 4.75 BB, BB folds, Villain calls
Turn:(19 BB, 2 players) Q♥
UTG (Villain) checks, Hero bets 9.50 BB, Villain calls
River:(38 BB, 2 players) A♦
UTG (Villain) checks, Hero checks
Villain shows K♦T♦
Villain wins the pot with A-T straight
Looking back probably K8s was a little too weak to open facing a single limper from EP.
Collin Moshman
Poker Expert
Silver Level
Good question SeniorTurtle.
I agree on folding pre-flop here. It's close; I'd be happy with a raise to 4bb if you were slightly stronger.
As played, I would usually check the flop multi-way here since the flop is slightly coordinated and you also have a bit of showdown value / ability to improve. But this street is also close and betting is fine. As played I like your turn barrel and I would fire this river too. Good thing you didn't though since he rivered the nuts!
I agree on folding pre-flop here. It's close; I'd be happy with a raise to 4bb if you were slightly stronger.
As played, I would usually check the flop multi-way here since the flop is slightly coordinated and you also have a bit of showdown value / ability to improve. But this street is also close and betting is fine. As played I like your turn barrel and I would fire this river too. Good thing you didn't though since he rivered the nuts!
S
Shay
Rock Star
Silver Level
Is this true?
Collin Moshman
Poker Expert
Silver Level
Is this true?
If someone is at multiple tables, the probability that they're a regular in the games goes up. On average this will make them likely to be a more experienced player.
But there are plenty of exceptions, not to mention that someone only at a single table may be concentrating harder on that one game and be a more difficult opponent to beat.
David macdonald
Legend
Bronze Level
I agree Colin , but I do believe someone that multi tables and is a pro would play a certain amount he or she is comfortable with and would do well. But on the other hand if they are inexperienced with the amount of tables or just playing too many I believe they will make mistakes.
Also generally they will play the same style and more likely to be more aggressive as thay have very little time to think.
I do think it's worth monitoring this particular player to see what they are doing and exploit their style at the tables. Also checking how many table and how frequently they play before joining them.
Katie Dozier
Poker Expert
Silver Level
Why there certainly are flukes, when you see someone routinely playing a lot of tables then they are probably a winning player. The reasons are two fold—it’s not a casual thing to play a lot of tables (for most is more fun to not play so many so entertainment is rarely why they’re playing so many tables) and if they were losing it’s unlikely that they’d be able to continue playing so many tables over a long stretch because they would go broke more quickly than someone playing one table.
Given that they are likely to be studying their own games and making sure they aren’t making many mistakes. Yes there are more likely to be misclick errors but in order to continue to be winning those errors would be infrequent, and this type of player would still tend to be making far fewer errors than an average player.
That being said, I do study the games of regs at my tables—especially when I happen to notice an odd hand or mistake. Usually what I find is a slight weakness, such as when they makes plays that look like traps they are traps—or some such little tidbit. A lot of times they only play this way versus non-regs, not me, so the information isn’t actually all that useful haha.
Anyway, my point is that their leaks tend not to be as exploitable as less experienced players, which is logical in that they are almost for sure playing better than average if they’re capable mass-multitabling over a real period of time [emoji106]