Building from a baby bankroll

OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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It's great to see that after all these years this post is still being read and hopefully helping people - run good y'all, and I'm very jealous of everyone that still has legal online poker available to them! :)

Your minimum 50X buy-in is excellent, but now that I've built my latest roll I am ultra conservative and stick to the 100X buy-in. On few occasions due to bad beats and losing streaks my roll has dwindled below 75X before the slow process of regaining it, but not by much. And yes, I've dropped down to smaller buy-ins to maintain the 100X which slows the process of regaining my roll even more. Had I been playing with a 50X buy-in I would have been stressed. I've never felt stressed with a 100X roll, and have always been able to maintain my best game, whatever that may be at any particular time. A sure way to lose your roll is to play in bigger buy-ins in an attempt to regain your losses. It might work a few times, but eventually it will deplete you.

Yep for me personally, even long after I'd built up from nothing I always maintained a 100 buyin bankroll for STTs.

Some people are comfortable with 50x and if you can top back up, or you're going to be militant about moving down to rebuild after some negative variance, then that's fine. But you should never be playing with scared money - that will affect your judgement and the way you play, and not in a good way.

If having 100x gives you the peace of mind to play your best game then it's absolutely the right thing to do, even if it means playing lower stakes for a while longer than someone playing 50x might.
 
jeanpierre1279

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Thanks for the advice

thanks for the advice

I agree with all your advice. I would just add that it is necessary for the person to work and earn money in another way to form a slightly better bankroll because the feeling of frustration at the beginning is very great, and the player may not even find it who may not have a talent for poker.

Due to the difficulty of obtaining this extra money, the player will also play carefully so as not to lose it obviously, but be more calm and, listening to your advice, you will know that the variance is normal in the game and that he is already prepared for it .

About me, I was really reluctant to play sit in go because I really like MTT, but as I still don’t have the necessary buy-ins, I am satisfied with this activity because I know it’s a great preparation.

After all, no one arrives at a company sitting right in the president´s board chair, right?:marchmell:sheep:
 
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nice thread ...for us with low bankrolls thank you
 
FF2586

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@oz hello hello
Great post

This is very interesting for me !

I was sgaring too much, and made those posts of how I would grow a bankroll. Haha
Now not doing it anymore, considering streaming on twitch though

Thanks for the tips, people would find this very helpful

gl gl gl
 
Claudiunm

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Great post, I do alot you talk about. I won a couple of freerolls over a 2 week period (55.00). I deciced to use patience and play the cash tables, but only .02/.04 blinds until I was able to build to 100.00, then I moved to the .05/.10 cash tables and so on. I do not play MTT tournaments unless the buy-in is 2% or less of my bankroll. It is a slow climb, but I have been able to make withdrawls without ever depositing. Here is some of my rules when playing,
1. Wife can not be around (she will bug the crap out of me)
2. T.V. must be turned off
3. Dog must be taken out prior to playing so I dont have to do it later
4. Cell phone turned to silence

With all these distractions out of the way, I have been able to play alot better and consistant.

Brother, my dream is to be able to follow these 4 rules. I even play with a baby on my lap. Only at dawn do I have peace. But then I tend to be so tired that I start to lean ...
Then the best thing to do is turn off the computer and go to sleep.
 
speper

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I always have trouble building a bankroll of my own
 
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Bases Covered! Excellent!

We get a lot of discussion on here around what to do when you're trying to build a bankroll from a small amount. Maybe you've just had a freeroll cash, maybe a friend's been kind enough to transfer you a small amount or maybe you've deposited in the past and you've only got a few bucks left. How do we take that amount and turn it into a real bankroll?

There are tips everywhere including here: Building a Bankroll from Nothing

What I've tried to do below is dump the bulk of my experience on the subject into one post. For those wondering about my credentials, I've been playing for the past couple of years on a roll built from freeroll cashes. I'll warn readers from the outset, I don't have any easy answers or shortcuts. But I think what's written here might be helpful in at least dispelling some of the myths and crazy ideas people have about undertaking this task and hopefully keep them on track while they're attempting it.

THERE IS NO MAGIC BULLET

There's loads of discussion on this point - time after time people have asked "What's the BEST game to play with a bankroll of (insert tiny amount here)?"

The truth is there IS no answer to that question. Everybody's different and we all have different strengths and weaknesses as players. I might have built a roll playing nothing but small stakes limit mixed games. Does that mean it's going to work for you? Dear gawd no! That'd be suicide for most people, since most people don't have the first clue how to play mixed games.

That's an extreme example, I know. It should be obvious to most people that if they suck at mixed games then they shouldn't be putting any of their baby bankroll on a mixed game table.

But there's other advice that sounds more reasonable but can be just as dangerous. How often have we heard, for example, that limit hold 'em is a great way to build a bankroll because it doesn't carry the risk of losing your whole stack in one hand like NLHE does? I know there's more than one lesson in the Full Tilt Academy that suggests it and it sounds perfectly reasonable, but guess what? If you suck at LHE, slowly but surely (and maybe not even that slowly) you're still going to lose your roll.

My point is, there is no magic bullet. There's no one game where everybody who plays it surely but steadily builds a roll. Far and away the best game to play is the one that YOU are best at. That might be LHE, it might be STTs, it might be $2NL 6-max. It doesn't matter. What matters is that YOU play YOUR best game, not someone else's.

I have an exeption to this rule regarding certain games NOT to play, BTW, which I'll discuss in a minute. But for the moment, let's move on to...

PICK A GAME AND STICK TO IT

Once you've settled on your best game, I'm recommending that you stick to it and play nothing else. A lot of people talk about how they played STTs for a little while and had some small wins, then they tried LHE for a while then lost the rest of their bankroll playing HU cash games.

There's a couple of reasons I think you should play just one game. The first is that we want to leverage our skill as best we can. It makes sense that our skill advantage will be biggest when we're playing our best game. The second reason is that we'll learn more when we concentrate on just one game. If we skip from game to game to game we won't be improving much at any of them because we won't be playing them for long enough. If we stick to one game not only are we maximising our skill edge, we're also maximising our chances to get better at the game, increase our skill edge and build our roll.

There'll be time for dabbling in mixed games and learning new things later, after we've built a stable roll.

YOU HAVE TO GET LUCKY

This is the bit that's going to hurt for some people. Even when we stick to just playing our best game, we're STILL going to need to get lucky in order to build our roll. By definition we've probably got less than good BRM dictates we should have to play in the lowest stakes games. If you're starting off with enough for just one buy in obviously you'll need to get very lucky - you'll need to win in the first game you play in and then keep winning in quite a number after that so that you've got some breathing room.

Even if you start off with, say, 10 or more buy ins though you'll still need a bit of luck to avoid a downswing that wipes out your roll. They happen all the time to players with full size rolls and there's nothing that says it can't happen to us either.

What I'm saying is remember that luck plays a part. Pick your best game and play your best. If you still wind up busto, don't dwell on it or let it get you down. Just pick yourself up, start over and hope for a little more luck next time.

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, STOP PLAYING MTTs!

Here's the bit where I'm going to contradict myself.

If I were to tell you I'd just made $10 from a freeroll and I was going to take it straight to a PLO cash game table to start trying to build a roll from it, how many people would think I was mad?

I think it might be more than a few. A select few of them will have prior knowledge of how much I suck at PLO. But others, even without that knowledge, would likely point out that the variance in PLO can be a killer and I'd be better off playing something with a more stable return. They'd probably be right too.

But here's the thing - a lot of those same people probably wouldn't bat an eyelid if I said I was going to take that $10 and play the Daily Dollar or something with it. Which is a funny thing, because as far as variance goes things don't really get much more swingy than multi-table tournaments. You certainly want a lot more than 20-30 buy ins to be rolled for them.

As discussed above, we already need to get very lucky to build a roll from nothing. We don't need to compound our problems by stacking variance against us - instead, we need to concentrate on games that offer us at least some chance of grinding a slow but steady path upwards. That usually means ring games or single-table SnGs and I'm recommending that, at least for the initial stages, you steer clear of MTTs and the horrible swings they bring. Even if you think they're your best game.

BE MILITANT AND CONSERVATIVE ABOUT BRM

In the beginning we're already going to be playing with bad BRM. There's not a lot we can do about it if we're not even rolled for the lowest stakes other than play our best and hope we run our roll up to a point where we ARE properly rolled for the level we're playing.

For that to happen though we have to be militant about the stakes we play. No playing in some random MTT or forum game or whatever, even as a one-off, unless we're rolled for it. Things like that are luxuries that we'll have later when we've built a stable roll.

We also need to be conservative with our bankroll. Most systems will tell you that if you've got 20-30 buy-ins for a given level you're rolled for it. I'm going to suggest you consider yourself "rolled" for a level when you've got 50 or more, that you don't move up in levels until you've got that much or more for the new level and that you move straight back down if you run bad at the new level. We worked hard to build that roll, we have to protect it as best we can from variance. Don't be ashamed of being a bankroll nit.

DON'T GET HUNG UP ON BONUSES

Free money is a beautiful thing. We all love it, and it's especially attractive when you don't have very much of it to start with.

Free money in the form of bonuses, however, usually comes with strings attached and those strings are almost always having to grind out x amount of frequent player points in real money games. Unlocked right, bonuses can be a fantastic way to pad your earnings and move your bankroll along faster. But done wrong they can send you hurtling backwards.

Take the recent Rush Week promo at Full Tilt. Anybody could participate, and to unlock the bronze level $10 bonus you had to grind out 10 FTPs a day on the Rush tables for seven days straight. Pretty sweet deal, right? Maybe, maybe not. If you're not rolled for the minimum $5NL that you'd need to play to earn the points, or if you're not any good at Rush, then taking this bonus on would be a terrible idea - chances are you'll end up losing more than you stood to win in bonuses and you might jeopardise your whole bankroll in the process.

The same goes for other things people consider doing to unlock other bonuses, like adding more tables than they're comfortable with to run points up faster or playing at higher stakes than they're rolled for. It's a slippery slope, I'm suggesting you just avoid it altogether.

As long as there's competition between online poker sites there'll be bonuses, so there's always another one somewhere around the corner. Stick with the plan, work through the bonuses that you can get safely by just and just playing your normal game at your normal limits and ignore the ones you can't get.

STOP TALKING AND START DOING
(OR "NOBODY ACTUALLY READS YOUR BLOG ANYWAY SO WHY STRESS YOURSELF")

Sometimes I don't know whether to laugh or cry. We've all seen it - someone comes along on a board or starts a blog talking a whole lot about how they're going to build a roll from nothing or how they've got this freeroll cash and they're going to run it up and make loads of money. Some of the dedicated ones even give us day by day or game by game updates for a short period... until the inevitable post where they tell us they're busto either because they played bad, they didn't follow BRM, they had to withdraw all their money for some inane reason or, my personal favourite, the donks ate their bankroll.

Save yourself the time and embarassment by talking less and DOING more. Use the time to actually review your games, rather than telling the world about every single bad beat you ever get. Post actual problem hands for analysis and ask meaningful questions that might help you improve your game, rather than telling everyone about every tiny fluctuation in your bankroll.

You're also putting unnecessary pressure on yourself. Chances are somewhere in the back of your mind there's a though along the lines of "What will I be telling my readers after this session?" and that can have an adverse effect on your game. So stop talking and start doing instead.

That's it, for the moment at least. Run good y'all.
Oz, talking about quality post, you've hit it! Thank you very much! I've been playing for awhile now, but I have yet to stop learning. Keep up the great advice; many of us need it. Again, thank you and GOD bless you.
 
ADRI7HO

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I think every novice player should read this because it summarizes the point in a great way.
It was interesting, thank you.
 
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marcoslopezbl

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Amazing post, Oz. Building a bankroll from nothing has to be one of the most seducing challenges in online poker. Great insight here.
 
GGthiagoXD

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wow, transparency!
We get a lot of discussion on here around what to do when you're trying to build a bankroll from a small amount. Maybe you've just had a freeroll cash, maybe a friend's been kind enough to transfer you a small amount or maybe you've deposited in the past and you've only got a few bucks left. How do we take that amount and turn it into a real bankroll?

There are tips everywhere including here: Building a Bankroll from Nothing

What I've tried to do below is dump the bulk of my experience on the subject into one post. For those wondering about my credentials, I've been playing for the past couple of years on a roll built from freeroll cashes. I'll warn readers from the outset, I don't have any easy answers or shortcuts. But I think what's written here might be helpful in at least dispelling some of the myths and crazy ideas people have about undertaking this task and hopefully keep them on track while they're attempting it.

THERE IS NO MAGIC BULLET

There's loads of discussion on this point - time after time people have asked "What's the BEST game to play with a bankroll of (insert tiny amount here)?"

The truth is there IS no answer to that question. Everybody's different and we all have different strengths and weaknesses as players. I might have built a roll playing nothing but small stakes limit mixed games. Does that mean it's going to work for you? Dear gawd no! That'd be suicide for most people, since most people don't have the first clue how to play mixed games.

That's an extreme example, I know. It should be obvious to most people that if they suck at mixed games then they shouldn't be putting any of their baby bankroll on a mixed game table.

But there's other advice that sounds more reasonable but can be just as dangerous. How often have we heard, for example, that limit hold 'em is a great way to build a bankroll because it doesn't carry the risk of losing your whole stack in one hand like NLHE does? I know there's more than one lesson in the Full Tilt Academy that suggests it and it sounds perfectly reasonable, but guess what? If you suck at LHE, slowly but surely (and maybe not even that slowly) you're still going to lose your roll.

My point is, there is no magic bullet. There's no one game where everybody who plays it surely but steadily builds a roll. Far and away the best game to play is the one that YOU are best at. That might be LHE, it might be STTs, it might be $2NL 6-max. It doesn't matter. What matters is that YOU play YOUR best game, not someone else's.

I have an exeption to this rule regarding certain games NOT to play, BTW, which I'll discuss in a minute. But for the moment, let's move on to...

PICK A GAME AND STICK TO IT

Once you've settled on your best game, I'm recommending that you stick to it and play nothing else. A lot of people talk about how they played STTs for a little while and had some small wins, then they tried LHE for a while then lost the rest of their bankroll playing HU cash games.

There's a couple of reasons I think you should play just one game. The first is that we want to leverage our skill as best we can. It makes sense that our skill advantage will be biggest when we're playing our best game. The second reason is that we'll learn more when we concentrate on just one game. If we skip from game to game to game we won't be improving much at any of them because we won't be playing them for long enough. If we stick to one game not only are we maximising our skill edge, we're also maximising our chances to get better at the game, increase our skill edge and build our roll.

There'll be time for dabbling in mixed games and learning new things later, after we've built a stable roll.

YOU HAVE TO GET LUCKY

This is the bit that's going to hurt for some people. Even when we stick to just playing our best game, we're STILL going to need to get lucky in order to build our roll. By definition we've probably got less than good BRM dictates we should have to play in the lowest stakes games. If you're starting off with enough for just one buy in obviously you'll need to get very lucky - you'll need to win in the first game you play in and then keep winning in quite a number after that so that you've got some breathing room.

Even if you start off with, say, 10 or more buy ins though you'll still need a bit of luck to avoid a downswing that wipes out your roll. They happen all the time to players with full size rolls and there's nothing that says it can't happen to us either.

What I'm saying is remember that luck plays a part. Pick your best game and play your best. If you still wind up busto, don't dwell on it or let it get you down. Just pick yourself up, start over and hope for a little more luck next time.

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, STOP PLAYING MTTs!

Here's the bit where I'm going to contradict myself.

If I were to tell you I'd just made $10 from a freeroll and I was going to take it straight to a PLO cash game table to start trying to build a roll from it, how many people would think I was mad?

I think it might be more than a few. A select few of them will have prior knowledge of how much I suck at PLO. But others, even without that knowledge, would likely point out that the variance in PLO can be a killer and I'd be better off playing something with a more stable return. They'd probably be right too.

But here's the thing - a lot of those same people probably wouldn't bat an eyelid if I said I was going to take that $10 and play the Daily Dollar or something with it. Which is a funny thing, because as far as variance goes things don't really get much more swingy than multi-table tournaments. You certainly want a lot more than 20-30 buy ins to be rolled for them.

As discussed above, we already need to get very lucky to build a roll from nothing. We don't need to compound our problems by stacking variance against us - instead, we need to concentrate on games that offer us at least some chance of grinding a slow but steady path upwards. That usually means ring games or single-table SnGs and I'm recommending that, at least for the initial stages, you steer clear of MTTs and the horrible swings they bring. Even if you think they're your best game.

BE MILITANT AND CONSERVATIVE ABOUT BRM

In the beginning we're already going to be playing with bad BRM. There's not a lot we can do about it if we're not even rolled for the lowest stakes other than play our best and hope we run our roll up to a point where we ARE properly rolled for the level we're playing.

For that to happen though we have to be militant about the stakes we play. No playing in some random MTT or forum game or whatever, even as a one-off, unless we're rolled for it. Things like that are luxuries that we'll have later when we've built a stable roll.

We also need to be conservative with our bankroll. Most systems will tell you that if you've got 20-30 buy-ins for a given level you're rolled for it. I'm going to suggest you consider yourself "rolled" for a level when you've got 50 or more, that you don't move up in levels until you've got that much or more for the new level and that you move straight back down if you run bad at the new level. We worked hard to build that roll, we have to protect it as best we can from variance. Don't be ashamed of being a bankroll nit.

DON'T GET HUNG UP ON BONUSES

Free money is a beautiful thing. We all love it, and it's especially attractive when you don't have very much of it to start with.

Free money in the form of bonuses, however, usually comes with strings attached and those strings are almost always having to grind out x amount of frequent player points in real money games. Unlocked right, bonuses can be a fantastic way to pad your earnings and move your bankroll along faster. But done wrong they can send you hurtling backwards.

Take the recent Rush Week promo at Full Tilt. Anybody could participate, and to unlock the bronze level $10 bonus you had to grind out 10 FTPs a day on the Rush tables for seven days straight. Pretty sweet deal, right? Maybe, maybe not. If you're not rolled for the minimum $5NL that you'd need to play to earn the points, or if you're not any good at Rush, then taking this bonus on would be a terrible idea - chances are you'll end up losing more than you stood to win in bonuses and you might jeopardise your whole bankroll in the process.

The same goes for other things people consider doing to unlock other bonuses, like adding more tables than they're comfortable with to run points up faster or playing at higher stakes than they're rolled for. It's a slippery slope, I'm suggesting you just avoid it altogether.

As long as there's competition between online poker sites there'll be bonuses, so there's always another one somewhere around the corner. Stick with the plan, work through the bonuses that you can get safely by just and just playing your normal game at your normal limits and ignore the ones you can't get.

STOP TALKING AND START DOING
(OR "NOBODY ACTUALLY READS YOUR BLOG ANYWAY SO WHY STRESS YOURSELF")

Sometimes I don't know whether to laugh or cry. We've all seen it - someone comes along on a board or starts a blog talking a whole lot about how they're going to build a roll from nothing or how they've got this freeroll cash and they're going to run it up and make loads of money. Some of the dedicated ones even give us day by day or game by game updates for a short period... until the inevitable post where they tell us they're busto either because they played bad, they didn't follow BRM, they had to withdraw all their money for some inane reason or, my personal favourite, the donks ate their bankroll.

Save yourself the time and embarassment by talking less and DOING more. Use the time to actually review your games, rather than telling the world about every single bad beat you ever get. Post actual problem hands for analysis and ask meaningful questions that might help you improve your game, rather than telling everyone about every tiny fluctuation in your bankroll.

You're also putting unnecessary pressure on yourself. Chances are somewhere in the back of your mind there's a though along the lines of "What will I be telling my readers after this session?" and that can have an adverse effect on your game. So stop talking and start doing instead.

That's it, for the moment at least. Run good y'all.
 
Darkray

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Ok, I finally conceded and read the post. The text was as good or better than the bullet points! Really good post.

Now how do I turn $3.67 into $1mirron???
 
tonzinho7620

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when I started in poker I lost a lot due to lack of information, with the tips from cardschat being able to perfect my moves and having satisfactory results
 
bapfel

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A possible different way (?):
I started online poker some month ago with 20 USD at 888 poker, played a lot here, cash games, tournaments and my bankroll was going down to about 1.50 USD. From this moment on I only played the freerolls at 888 Poker, and it costed me 2 month to come back to 18 USD, then one 12 USD in last weeks Sunday tournament "weekly 30.000 USD" where I had qualified for free... now I have 34 USD

So all I want to say, as a beginner when you don`t want to loose money, play the lots of freerolls, improve your playing and the use this money for paid tournaments or in small cash games to grow and grow your skills and your money.
Perhaps that way cost years...but I like the game :)
 
ringworm

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I'm just going to start linking to this post when this topic comes up. Nicely done.
 
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Thanks for the advice, I still get a little confused with some of the abreviations though, I guess i should keep reading

Brother, my dream is to be able to follow these 4 rules. I even play with a baby on my lap. Only at dawn do I have peace. But then I tend to be so tired that I start to lean ...
Then the best thing to do is turn off the computer and go to sleep.

This is like looking myself on the mirror, I get prety frustrated too by the fact that freeroll tournaments happen during dinner time...
 
GeckoAA

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That’s a very nice post you wrote, sharing your experience. I’m sure this will help many people out as they find their way around poker world, including myself.

It’s one thing to have the poker experience you have and its another to be able to express it in words to help others. It takes time and I very much appreciate it. Thanks :)
 
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Great advice, except "no mtt's"

I agree with all points made. But you stay not to play MTT, variance,etc is against you. I agree IF it is a buy-in MTT: it costs you money and your time.
Freeroll MTT, are how to conserve BR and still be in the game. Different sites have different free-rolls, Cardschat, is a great one, for example. If you drill-down you might find other worthy freebies on different sites.
 
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hahahaha I'm building my bankroll from scratch, with pure freeroll, hahaha I know it won't be fast but as they say in poker in the long run there is no luck right hahahaha
 
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STTs are a really good way to learn the game and have less variance than anything else. They really suit me but off course, we are all different :)
 
Peter Nesskquick

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These are very important tips. If I could apply everything the author described. 3 years ago, I read Harrington's books and took several courses on poker, but one thing ruined me: after the theory, I played about a month in MTT and Spin&Go, and gained about$200. At that time, I felt very strongfish, and decided to play spin&go for $ 100, where I lost all in with AA. And then the emotions took over and I was very angry and made a Deposit of $ 1000. I got madder and madder with every$ 100 I lost, until I lost every last cent. The next morning, I was very angry with myself, but also grateful that I realized what my mistake was very early. Then I decided to take a break for a couple of years. During this time, I learned to control my emotions and now I came here to remember these and other tips again, and with renewed strength to go and get my$1000 back.
 
Vampduk

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Very useful post, but it did fall into the trap of assuming knowledge of acronyms. It's easy to forget that the new guy won't know the meaning of acronyms that more experienced people take for granted.
 
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Very interesting post. I’ve always played to earn on freerolls... after this post I will play ring games to build my bankroll. I’ve had a bankroll at a couple of site who then stopped SA players from playing so need to start over again. Which would be best site to join?
 
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