Building from a baby bankroll

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quake419

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There is no short cut

Poker is a game of patience and some skillful maneuvering and patience much patience I have been in free roll tourneys and cashed. However depending what tourney the cash out could be small. When you take 4 or 5 hours to win $2 or $5.00 it actually helps your perception of the game. But don't get it twisted some time LUCK shows up and shows out
 
RED137

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This is what I use is the Fergulator.

Fergulator is a program that follows the rules set by*Chris Ferguson during his $0 to $10,000 bankroll management challenge. These rules are:

1.Do not buy in to an MTT with more than 2% of your bankroll.

2.Do not buy in to an SNG with more than 5% of your bankroll.

3.Do not take more than 5% of your bankroll to a cash table.

4.Leave a cash table if your stack exceeds more than 10% of your total bankroll.

You can read more about here.
http://www.thepokerbank.com/tools/pokerbank/fergulator/
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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Yeah that's still a pretty risky BRM strategy for what it's worth - he's saying you can play cash games or SnGs with just 20 buyins.

That's fine if you don't mind reloading. But 20 buyin downswings DO happen so you run an increased risk of busting using that method. Especially if you're already playing at the lowest buyins and there isn't another level to drop down do if you go on a losing streak.
 
Masi2197

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Usually I do not usually deposit but I take advantage of some opportunities or promotions that gives pokerstar, and entered the bubble of some freeroll tournaments so my bankrol grew up bb I usually play tournaments of little value, I do not play jugwr casino, nor bets, but well I dedicate my time to poker as sit & go or mtt tournaments of 0.55
 
rohankamble9

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We get a lot of discussion on here around what to do when you're trying to build a bankroll from a small amount. Maybe you've just had a freeroll cash, maybe a friend's been kind enough to transfer you a small amount or maybe you've deposited in the past and you've only got a few bucks left. How do we take that amount and turn it into a real bankroll?

What I've tried to do below is dump the bulk of my experience on the subject into one post. For those wondering about my credentials, I've been playing for the past couple of years on a roll built from freeroll cashes. I'll warn readers from the outset, I don't have any easy answers or shortcuts. But I think what's written here might be helpful in at least dispelling some of the myths and crazy ideas people have about undertaking this task and hopefully keep them on track while they're attempting it.

THERE IS NO MAGIC BULLET

There's loads of discussion on this point - time after time people have asked "What's the BEST game to play with a bankroll of (insert tiny amount here)?"

The truth is there IS no answer to that question. Everybody's different and we all have different strengths and weaknesses as players. I might have built a roll playing nothing but small stakes limit mixed games. Does that mean it's going to work for you? Dear gawd no! That'd be suicide for most people, since most people don't have the first clue how to play mixed games.

That's an extreme example, I know. It should be obvious to most people that if they suck at mixed games then they shouldn't be putting any of their baby bankroll on a mixed game table.

But there's other advice that sounds more reasonable but can be just as dangerous. How often have we heard, for example, that limit hold 'em is a great way to build a bankroll because it doesn't carry the risk of losing your whole stack in one hand like NLHE does? I know there's more than one lesson in the Full Tilt Academy that suggests it and it sounds perfectly reasonable, but guess what? If you suck at LHE, slowly but surely (and maybe not even that slowly) you're still going to lose your roll.

My point is, there is no magic bullet. There's no one game where everybody who plays it surely but steadily builds a roll. Far and away the best game to play is the one that YOU are best at. That might be LHE, it might be STTs, it might be $2NL 6-max. It doesn't matter. What matters is that YOU play YOUR best game, not someone else's.

I have an exeption to this rule regarding certain games NOT to play, BTW, which I'll discuss in a minute. But for the moment, let's move on to...

PICK A GAME AND STICK TO IT

Once you've settled on your best game, I'm recommending that you stick to it and play nothing else. A lot of people talk about how they played STTs for a little while and had some small wins, then they tried LHE for a while then lost the rest of their bankroll playing HU cash games.

There's a couple of reasons I think you should play just one game. The first is that we want to leverage our skill as best we can. It makes sense that our skill advantage will be biggest when we're playing our best game. The second reason is that we'll learn more when we concentrate on just one game. If we skip from game to game to game we won't be improving much at any of them because we won't be playing them for long enough. If we stick to one game not only are we maximising our skill edge, we're also maximising our chances to get better at the game, increase our skill edge and build our roll.

There'll be time for dabbling in mixed games and learning new things later, after we've built a stable roll.

YOU HAVE TO GET LUCKY

This is the bit that's going to hurt for some people. Even when we stick to just playing our best game, we're STILL going to need to get lucky in order to build our roll. By definition we've probably got less than good BRM dictates we should have to play in the lowest stakes games. If you're starting off with enough for just one buy in obviously you'll need to get very lucky - you'll need to win in the first game you play in and then keep winning in quite a number after that so that you've got some breathing room.

Even if you start off with, say, 10 or more buy ins though you'll still need a bit of luck to avoid a downswing that wipes out your roll. They happen all the time to players with full size rolls and there's nothing that says it can't happen to us either.

What I'm saying is remember that luck plays a part. Pick your best game and play your best. If you still wind up busto, don't dwell on it or let it get you down. Just pick yourself up, start over and hope for a little more luck next time.

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, STOP PLAYING MTTs!

Here's the bit where I'm going to contradict myself.

If I were to tell you I'd just made $10 from a freeroll and I was going to take it straight to a PLO cash game table to start trying to build a roll from it, how many people would think I was mad?

I think it might be more than a few. A select few of them will have prior knowledge of how much I suck at PLO. But others, even without that knowledge, would likely point out that the variance in PLO can be a killer and I'd be better off playing something with a more stable return. They'd probably be right too.

But here's the thing - a lot of those same people probably wouldn't bat an eyelid if I said I was going to take that $10 and play the Daily Dollar or something with it. Which is a funny thing, because as far as variance goes things don't really get much more swingy than multi-table tournaments. You certainly want a lot more than 20-30 buy ins to be rolled for them.

As discussed above, we already need to get very lucky to build a roll from nothing. We don't need to compound our problems by stacking variance against us - instead, we need to concentrate on games that offer us at least some chance of grinding a slow but steady path upwards. That usually means ring games or single-table SnGs and I'm recommending that, at least for the initial stages, you steer clear of MTTs and the horrible swings they bring. Even if you think they're your best game.

BE MILITANT AND CONSERVATIVE ABOUT BRM

In the beginning we're already going to be playing with bad BRM. There's not a lot we can do about it if we're not even rolled for the lowest stakes other than play our best and hope we run our roll up to a point where we ARE properly rolled for the level we're playing.

For that to happen though we have to be militant about the stakes we play. No playing in some random MTT or forum game or whatever, even as a one-off, unless we're rolled for it. Things like that are luxuries that we'll have later when we've built a stable roll.

We also need to be conservative with our bankroll. Most systems will tell you that if you've got 20-30 buy-ins for a given level you're rolled for it. I'm going to suggest you consider yourself "rolled" for a level when you've got 50 or more, that you don't move up in levels until you've got that much or more for the new level and that you move straight back down if you run bad at the new level. We worked hard to build that roll, we have to protect it as best we can from variance. Don't be ashamed of being a bankroll nit.

DON'T GET HUNG UP ON BONUSES

Free money is a beautiful thing. We all love it, and it's especially attractive when you don't have very much of it to start with.

Free money in the form of bonuses, however, usually comes with strings attached and those strings are almost always having to grind out x amount of frequent player points in real money games. Unlocked right, bonuses can be a fantastic way to pad your earnings and move your bankroll along faster. But done wrong they can send you hurtling backwards.

Take the recent Rush Week promo at Full Tilt. Anybody could participate, and to unlock the bronze level $10 bonus you had to grind out 10 FTPs a day on the Rush tables for seven days straight. Pretty sweet deal, right? Maybe, maybe not. If you're not rolled for the minimum $5NL that you'd need to play to earn the points, or if you're not any good at Rush, then taking this bonus on would be a terrible idea - chances are you'll end up losing more than you stood to win in bonuses and you might jeopardise your whole bankroll in the process.

The same goes for other things people consider doing to unlock other bonuses, like adding more tables than they're comfortable with to run points up faster or playing at higher stakes than they're rolled for. It's a slippery slope, I'm suggesting you just avoid it altogether.

As long as there's competition between online poker sites there'll be bonuses, so there's always another one somewhere around the corner. Stick with the plan, work through the bonuses that you can get safely by just and just playing your normal game at your normal limits and ignore the ones you can't get.

STOP TALKING AND START DOING
(OR "NOBODY ACTUALLY READS YOUR BLOG ANYWAY SO WHY STRESS YOURSELF")

Sometimes I don't know whether to laugh or cry. We've all seen it - someone comes along on a board or starts a blog talking a whole lot about how they're going to build a roll from nothing or how they've got this freeroll cash and they're going to run it up and make loads of money. Some of the dedicated ones even give us day by day or game by game updates for a short period... until the inevitable post where they tell us they're busto either because they played bad, they didn't follow BRM, they had to withdraw all their money for some inane reason or, my personal favourite, the donks ate their bankroll.

Save yourself the time and embarassment by talking less and DOING more. Use the time to actually review your games, rather than telling the world about every single bad beat you ever get. Post actual problem hands for analysis and ask meaningful questions that might help you improve your game, rather than telling everyone about every tiny fluctuation in your bankroll.

You're also putting unnecessary pressure on yourself. Chances are somewhere in the back of your mind there's a though along the lines of "What will I be telling my readers after this session?" and that can have an adverse effect on your game. So stop talking and start doing instead.

That's it, for the moment at least. Run good y'all.

thanx for this awesome post OzExorcist....wish I had read it before I busted my bankroll over silly spin and go's:(:(:(:(
 
X

Xan_58

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Really nice post after all this years everything u said its true! :p
 
SlimHeperpokerstars

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We get a lot of discussion on here around what to do when you're trying to build a bankroll from a small amount. Maybe you've just had a freeroll cash, maybe a friend's been kind enough to transfer you a small amount or maybe you've deposited in the past and you've only got a few bucks left. How do we take that amount and turn it into a real bankroll?

What I've tried to do below is dump the bulk of my experience on the subject into one post. For those wondering about my credentials, I've been playing for the past couple of years on a roll built from freeroll cashes. I'll warn readers from the outset, I don't have any easy answers or shortcuts. But I think what's written here might be helpful in at least dispelling some of the myths and crazy ideas people have about undertaking this task and hopefully keep them on track while they're attempting it.

THERE IS NO MAGIC BULLET

There's loads of discussion on this point - time after time people have asked "What's the BEST game to play with a bankroll of (insert tiny amount here)?"

The truth is there IS no answer to that question. Everybody's different and we all have different strengths and weaknesses as players. I might have built a roll playing nothing but small stakes limit mixed games. Does that mean it's going to work for you? Dear gawd no! That'd be suicide for most people, since most people don't have the first clue how to play mixed games.

That's an extreme example, I know. It should be obvious to most people that if they suck at mixed games then they shouldn't be putting any of their baby bankroll on a mixed game table.

But there's other advice that sounds more reasonable but can be just as dangerous. How often have we heard, for example, that limit hold 'em is a great way to build a bankroll because it doesn't carry the risk of losing your whole stack in one hand like NLHE does? I know there's more than one lesson in the Full Tilt Academy that suggests it and it sounds perfectly reasonable, but guess what? If you suck at LHE, slowly but surely (and maybe not even that slowly) you're still going to lose your roll.

My point is, there is no magic bullet. There's no one game where everybody who plays it surely but steadily builds a roll. Far and away the best game to play is the one that YOU are best at. That might be LHE, it might be STTs, it might be $2NL 6-max. It doesn't matter. What matters is that YOU play YOUR best game, not someone else's.

I have an exeption to this rule regarding certain games NOT to play, BTW, which I'll discuss in a minute. But for the moment, let's move on to...

PICK A GAME AND STICK TO IT

Once you've settled on your best game, I'm recommending that you stick to it and play nothing else. A lot of people talk about how they played STTs for a little while and had some small wins, then they tried LHE for a while then lost the rest of their bankroll playing HU cash games.

There's a couple of reasons I think you should play just one game. The first is that we want to leverage our skill as best we can. It makes sense that our skill advantage will be biggest when we're playing our best game. The second reason is that we'll learn more when we concentrate on just one game. If we skip from game to game to game we won't be improving much at any of them because we won't be playing them for long enough. If we stick to one game not only are we maximising our skill edge, we're also maximising our chances to get better at the game, increase our skill edge and build our roll.

There'll be time for dabbling in mixed games and learning new things later, after we've built a stable roll.

YOU HAVE TO GET LUCKY

This is the bit that's going to hurt for some people. Even when we stick to just playing our best game, we're STILL going to need to get lucky in order to build our roll. By definition we've probably got less than good BRM dictates we should have to play in the lowest stakes games. If you're starting off with enough for just one buy in obviously you'll need to get very lucky - you'll need to win in the first game you play in and then keep winning in quite a number after that so that you've got some breathing room.

Even if you start off with, say, 10 or more buy ins though you'll still need a bit of luck to avoid a downswing that wipes out your roll. They happen all the time to players with full size rolls and there's nothing that says it can't happen to us either.

What I'm saying is remember that luck plays a part. Pick your best game and play your best. If you still wind up busto, don't dwell on it or let it get you down. Just pick yourself up, start over and hope for a little more luck next time.

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, STOP PLAYING MTTs!

Here's the bit where I'm going to contradict myself.

If I were to tell you I'd just made $10 from a freeroll and I was going to take it straight to a PLO cash game table to start trying to build a roll from it, how many people would think I was mad?

I think it might be more than a few. A select few of them will have prior knowledge of how much I suck at PLO. But others, even without that knowledge, would likely point out that the variance in PLO can be a killer and I'd be better off playing something with a more stable return. They'd probably be right too.

But here's the thing - a lot of those same people probably wouldn't bat an eyelid if I said I was going to take that $10 and play the Daily Dollar or something with it. Which is a funny thing, because as far as variance goes things don't really get much more swingy than multi-table tournaments. You certainly want a lot more than 20-30 buy ins to be rolled for them.

As discussed above, we already need to get very lucky to build a roll from nothing. We don't need to compound our problems by stacking variance against us - instead, we need to concentrate on games that offer us at least some chance of grinding a slow but steady path upwards. That usually means ring games or single-table SnGs and I'm recommending that, at least for the initial stages, you steer clear of MTTs and the horrible swings they bring. Even if you think they're your best game.

BE MILITANT AND CONSERVATIVE ABOUT BRM

In the beginning we're already going to be playing with bad BRM. There's not a lot we can do about it if we're not even rolled for the lowest stakes other than play our best and hope we run our roll up to a point where we ARE properly rolled for the level we're playing.

For that to happen though we have to be militant about the stakes we play. No playing in some random MTT or forum game or whatever, even as a one-off, unless we're rolled for it. Things like that are luxuries that we'll have later when we've built a stable roll.

We also need to be conservative with our bankroll. Most systems will tell you that if you've got 20-30 buy-ins for a given level you're rolled for it. I'm going to suggest you consider yourself "rolled" for a level when you've got 50 or more, that you don't move up in levels until you've got that much or more for the new level and that you move straight back down if you run bad at the new level. We worked hard to build that roll, we have to protect it as best we can from variance. Don't be ashamed of being a bankroll nit.

DON'T GET HUNG UP ON BONUSES

Free money is a beautiful thing. We all love it, and it's especially attractive when you don't have very much of it to start with.

Free money in the form of bonuses, however, usually comes with strings attached and those strings are almost always having to grind out x amount of frequent player points in real money games. Unlocked right, bonuses can be a fantastic way to pad your earnings and move your bankroll along faster. But done wrong they can send you hurtling backwards.

Take the recent Rush Week promo at Full Tilt. Anybody could participate, and to unlock the bronze level $10 bonus you had to grind out 10 FTPs a day on the Rush tables for seven days straight. Pretty sweet deal, right? Maybe, maybe not. If you're not rolled for the minimum $5NL that you'd need to play to earn the points, or if you're not any good at Rush, then taking this bonus on would be a terrible idea - chances are you'll end up losing more than you stood to win in bonuses and you might jeopardise your whole bankroll in the process.

The same goes for other things people consider doing to unlock other bonuses, like adding more tables than they're comfortable with to run points up faster or playing at higher stakes than they're rolled for. It's a slippery slope, I'm suggesting you just avoid it altogether.

As long as there's competition between online poker sites there'll be bonuses, so there's always another one somewhere around the corner. Stick with the plan, work through the bonuses that you can get safely by just and just playing your normal game at your normal limits and ignore the ones you can't get.

STOP TALKING AND START DOING
(OR "NOBODY ACTUALLY READS YOUR BLOG ANYWAY SO WHY STRESS YOURSELF")

Sometimes I don't know whether to laugh or cry. We've all seen it - someone comes along on a board or starts a blog talking a whole lot about how they're going to build a roll from nothing or how they've got this freeroll cash and they're going to run it up and make loads of money. Some of the dedicated ones even give us day by day or game by game updates for a short period... until the inevitable post where they tell us they're busto either because they played bad, they didn't follow BRM, they had to withdraw all their money for some inane reason or, my personal favourite, the donks ate their bankroll.

Save yourself the time and embarassment by talking less and DOING more. Use the time to actually review your games, rather than telling the world about every single bad beat you ever get. Post actual problem hands for analysis and ask meaningful questions that might help you improve your game, rather than telling everyone about every tiny fluctuation in your bankroll.

You're also putting unnecessary pressure on yourself. Chances are somewhere in the back of your mind there's a though along the lines of "What will I be telling my readers after this session?" and that can have an adverse effect on your game. So stop talking and start doing instead.

That's it, for the moment at least. Run good y'all.

I have been playing for about 2 years and during that time I have not seen a single similar article, where a person talks about poker in such detail and clearly. And this is not some PR or advertising, in your article is very important and necessary information for all players, especially for beginners and those with little experience! Thank you very much for your hard work, success not only at gaming tables, you are the right person and deserve great respect !!! I hope that as many people as possible read and understand what you wrote about this topic!:)
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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I'm just glad people are still finding it useful, thanks :)
 
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bumerangue

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Very good article, I,m trying to build a roll from freerolls and bonuses, its working so far, but I'm just playing inthe cents buy-in tournaments
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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How is your bankroll nowadays? What would you say to yourself past the time you posted this?

Nowadays I don't get to play very much (and on top of that, online poker is about to be banned in my country). My bankroll was tied up on Full Tilt for ages after Black Friday, and I withdrew most of it once that mess was finally cleared up.

The method I outlined all those years ago worked and can still work though. I haven't gotten into exactly which games I played or how I did it because I think it's largely irrelevant - what's important is that you play YOUR best games, not my best ones.

But for what it's worth, I did it almost exclusively playing single-table turbo SNGs. By the time Black Friday hit I was pretty comfortably rolled to be playing them at the $24 level, though I didn't have enough of a sample to know if I could consistently beat that level, even with rakeback (I suspect I couldn't yet).
 
A2020

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Thanks for this post, really helpful and for sure I will be taking some tips from here and try to apply them.

I guess it's time to start with a plan and here I found nice guide.
 
Ranish625

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useful for me to post, I'm new. and just learn to play
 
Jhon Lozano

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Great contribution, provides vital information for new people in this ample game, I have learned many with you, I thank you from the heart.
 
crimsonblur

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Nice post, completely agree with you. You seemed to cover it all there thanks.
 
Jankou36

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So if not MTT, what I should play?
I have now a very few cents, but soon I'll have about $20 and I wanted to play in satellites to big/hot $0.55 or $1.10, now I looked at the S&G's, but it doesn't look so great, hardly I would doubled my buy-in... don't know.
What could be good for start? I played only MTT's and I have to try something from the scratch. Spin&Go $0.25 or S&G for 45/90 players? Maybe cash game?
I don't know why I feel it's easier to be in top 10% with 5k players than with 50 players. Is it irrational?
Here is my tournament history in High School league:
1 2
 
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Jankou36

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I can't edit, so merge mod or smth.
I've done some math:
From the tournament history I can see I finish in top 15% about 39% times.
So if I play 10 times 45-players $0.25 S&G, my buy-in's will be $2.50.
I should win at least 3 times lets say in top 10%, so I will win $3.90 and that makes me $1.40 profit.
Right thinking?
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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So if not MTT, what I should play?
I have now a very few cents, but soon I'll have about $20 and I wanted to play in satellites to big/hot $0.55 or $1.10, now I looked at the S&G's, but it doesn't look so great, hardly I would doubled my buy-in... don't know.
What could be good for start? I played only MTT's and I have to try something from the scratch. Spin&Go $0.25 or S&G for 45/90 players? Maybe cash game?
I don't know why I feel it's easier to be in top 10% with 5k players than with 50 players. Is it irrational?
Here is my tournament history in High School league:
View attachment 146059 View attachment 146061

OK so a few thoughts:

* 45/90 player SNGs are still MTTs

* "doesn't look so great, hardly I would doubled my buy-in": if you're talking about the prize pools in SNGs then... yes, and that's what a low-variance approach looks like. You won't get rich in one game, but you also stand a much better chance of grinding out multiple cashes and running your roll up consistently, as opposed to taking shots on big-payout MTTs where occasionally you'll have a big win, but more often than not you'll go broke waiting for that to happen.

* If that's your complete tournament history then you're not working from a very big sample size. If I'm reading it correctly you cashed in about 10/20 events? It's not really a big enough sample to give you an idea of how you'll do over the long run though.
 
Jankou36

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I don't have more my stats now, but when I wrote my performance in satellites, in Excel, it was also about 30-40% times "in the money".
In $0.50 STT S&G winner gets $2, so I would have to win one of 3-4 tournaments.
Now comes the question: is STT win is easier than top 10% in 45 players S&G? Ofc win vs 9 players is more then top 10%, but is there any other reason why you prefer STT? Ain't it requiring more skills and wisdom from player?
 
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OzExorcist

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"In the money" percentage doesn't mean much because it's not just if you cash, it's how much you cash for.

Take a typical 9-player STT with a 50-30-20 payout structure. For a $1 SNG, that's a $4.50 to first, $2.70 to second and $1.80 to third, for a total prize pool of $9.

Let's take an extreme example and say you cash in 50% of your games, but it's always for third place. You'd have a 50% ITM percentage but actually be losing money.

Flip that around and say you only cash in 25% of your games, but you somehow always finish in first place when you cash. Your ITM percentage has halved, but now you're actually making a profit.

Of course in the real world you're not going to always finish first or third, you're going to have a mix of results. Point is, ITM% isn't a particularly helpful stat. Back in the day I played a massive volume of STTs and at no point do I think I ever really paid attention to my ITM%. What I could do off the top of my head though was tell you my ROI or my lifetime $/hr in a particular game format.

That's more useful information because it tells you how much you're actually making in return for what you're putting in ($ from your bankroll, or time, respectively).

As for whether it's "easier" to win STTs than it is to place in the top 10% of a multi-table tournament... like pretty much anything in poker the correct answer is a great big "it depends". Though if you're looking for a one-word answer, it's "yes". An STT pays 33% of the field, so at the very least you expect to be cashing in them on a more consistent basis. They've got much lower variance than MTTs.

And just to be clear, it's purely the variance that's the reason I recommend avoiding MTTs while you're trying to build from a tiny bankroll. I'm not saying that MTTs are "bad" and that you should never play them - I'm just saying that they pose a unique problem when you're under-rolled, so you should wait until you've got a stable bankroll to play them.
 
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John Bor

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it is a rather important information. thank you
 
Jankou36

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Thanks for the reply.
I'll try with S&Gs 45 players and STT and post results in a few weeks.
 
RED137

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So I won $3 off a CC Freeroll last night, and ran it up to $12.68 playing Double or Nothing SnGs. I fell good playing them because it gives me a better chance at winning and increasing my bankroll. Should I continue to play them or should I try MTTs? Cash game I'm weak at unless it's 2c/4c fixed. So I leaned to stay away from them.
 
Bankroll Building - Bankroll Management
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