M
Mr Whatever
Rock Star
Silver Level
Orifice, my main point was that a person should scope out a few tourns of a particular kind before they buy into it. Like scoping out a cash table before sitting down to it. I don’t think that is nonsensical.
I know ur familiar with a lot of the full tilt tourns and u know most of them have distinct predictable characteristics to them. Like how long they run, how many enter it, the payout and so forth. So I disagree with u in thinking that a distinct online tourn is magically different everytime it runs. U should also be able to conclude by watching this 1 particular tourn- how long and how much ur gonna need in order to hit the money in that tourn. Whether it’s the daily buck tourn or whatever.
If u don’t know these things, then u probably shouldn’t enter that tourn until u find out more about that particular tourn. But hey, a lot of ppl just sit down to a cash game without scoping out any of the players and just go with it, why not a tourn. . . . lolol
The two examples of cashing I gave earlier, of the saty turbo tourn to the daily dollar and the daily dollar tourn are very close or right on for cashing and any1 that is familiar with those tourns would probably agree. I just gave those 2 examples since they are lo buyin tourns that some1 might consider.
Your 2nd question of why it would be bad idea for beginners not to play ppl they are used to? I wrote about it, u can look it over if u wish. Ur not a beginner orifice, lololololoololo, will a beginner that is trying to build a baby bankroll make the adjustments in their game that u can? Come on, lolo.
To be honest, I think telling ppl that are trying to build a small bankroll to play only nl holdem isn’t the best way to go about building a baby bankroll anyway now that I think about it because of the high variance and swings. Theyd lose their bankroll more often and end up rebuilding it all over again.
Id suggest a game other than nl holdem to build a baby bankroll, so ud have to learn another game other than holdem anyway. Not every1 is dusty Schmidt and are more likely to go broke playing a nl or pl game anyway.
so still id say play ur freerolls, and cash games, but put aside a lil for tourns.
But before u go on any type of bankroll building u should have all the basics covered by just doing the playchip tables anyway and avoid the cash tables or cash tourns. -Unless u want to pay for lessons that u coulda gotten for free?
I know ur familiar with a lot of the full tilt tourns and u know most of them have distinct predictable characteristics to them. Like how long they run, how many enter it, the payout and so forth. So I disagree with u in thinking that a distinct online tourn is magically different everytime it runs. U should also be able to conclude by watching this 1 particular tourn- how long and how much ur gonna need in order to hit the money in that tourn. Whether it’s the daily buck tourn or whatever.
If u don’t know these things, then u probably shouldn’t enter that tourn until u find out more about that particular tourn. But hey, a lot of ppl just sit down to a cash game without scoping out any of the players and just go with it, why not a tourn. . . . lolol
The two examples of cashing I gave earlier, of the saty turbo tourn to the daily dollar and the daily dollar tourn are very close or right on for cashing and any1 that is familiar with those tourns would probably agree. I just gave those 2 examples since they are lo buyin tourns that some1 might consider.
Your 2nd question of why it would be bad idea for beginners not to play ppl they are used to? I wrote about it, u can look it over if u wish. Ur not a beginner orifice, lololololoololo, will a beginner that is trying to build a baby bankroll make the adjustments in their game that u can? Come on, lolo.
To be honest, I think telling ppl that are trying to build a small bankroll to play only nl holdem isn’t the best way to go about building a baby bankroll anyway now that I think about it because of the high variance and swings. Theyd lose their bankroll more often and end up rebuilding it all over again.
Id suggest a game other than nl holdem to build a baby bankroll, so ud have to learn another game other than holdem anyway. Not every1 is dusty Schmidt and are more likely to go broke playing a nl or pl game anyway.
so still id say play ur freerolls, and cash games, but put aside a lil for tourns.
But before u go on any type of bankroll building u should have all the basics covered by just doing the playchip tables anyway and avoid the cash tables or cash tourns. -Unless u want to pay for lessons that u coulda gotten for free?
Arjonius
Legend
Silver Level
You're not including the times when you don't make it through the .30 satellite. If you succeed half the time, your average cost is .60, not .30. If 1 in 3 success rate, it's .90 avg cost.
M
Mr Whatever
Rock Star
Silver Level
yeah i get ur point -ur gonna have to go 1 out of 3 in ur given example to get a return instead of just putting up the $1 entry fee to the daily dollar, which is a very valid point.
it just doesnt seem that hard to get 1 double up plus another 1000 if u play an overall solid game in that saty. especially when about 40-50 ppl out of the normal 200-250 ppl in it will be gone in the 1st 10-20mins.
Although I think cashing in the saty isn’t that hard, ur right, it might not be hard for me to do but for some1 reading this it might be.
So Id recommend u play it a few times to see if u can make a return on that particular tourn. A 1-2$ investment over a nice stretch shouldn’t crush ur baby bankroll. Since the payout is good, its probably the best option ur gonna have if u play at full tilt at such low levels. I mean u got the .10 rebuy tourn- gl with making a return on that,lolol, or the .25 sngs sats.
For ur example if u pay the .30 into the saty and make into the daily dollar, then make it to cashing in the daily dollar ur gonna be up $2+ from that original .30 that u paid to gain entry into the saty to the daily dollar tourn. Because the bottom spot for cashing in the daily dollar like around 2.30. But cashing in the daily dollar tourn is a lot harder than cashing in that saty. Lolol.
but my point was with building a small bankroll ur not gonna want to put a lot into playing tourns just a lil of ur bankroll. but to flat out reject tourns and to stick exclusively to cash games might not be the best way to go for a lot of ppl for building a bankroll.
satellites to tourns are an awesome way to build ur bankroll with a small investment if the payout of the tourn is good. In the case of the saty tourn to the daily $, it is very good.
im done with this 1 ppl.
gl ppl
it just doesnt seem that hard to get 1 double up plus another 1000 if u play an overall solid game in that saty. especially when about 40-50 ppl out of the normal 200-250 ppl in it will be gone in the 1st 10-20mins.
Although I think cashing in the saty isn’t that hard, ur right, it might not be hard for me to do but for some1 reading this it might be.
So Id recommend u play it a few times to see if u can make a return on that particular tourn. A 1-2$ investment over a nice stretch shouldn’t crush ur baby bankroll. Since the payout is good, its probably the best option ur gonna have if u play at full tilt at such low levels. I mean u got the .10 rebuy tourn- gl with making a return on that,lolol, or the .25 sngs sats.
For ur example if u pay the .30 into the saty and make into the daily dollar, then make it to cashing in the daily dollar ur gonna be up $2+ from that original .30 that u paid to gain entry into the saty to the daily dollar tourn. Because the bottom spot for cashing in the daily dollar like around 2.30. But cashing in the daily dollar tourn is a lot harder than cashing in that saty. Lolol.
but my point was with building a small bankroll ur not gonna want to put a lot into playing tourns just a lil of ur bankroll. but to flat out reject tourns and to stick exclusively to cash games might not be the best way to go for a lot of ppl for building a bankroll.
satellites to tourns are an awesome way to build ur bankroll with a small investment if the payout of the tourn is good. In the case of the saty tourn to the daily $, it is very good.
im done with this 1 ppl.
gl ppl
Maid Marian
RIP Baby BooBoo
Silver Level
Very good advice...I will try to follow it...I seem to have several games that I'm getting good at playing & have been playing just over a year now. I love NLHE best, but also enjoy Razz & 5 card draw...I only do freerolls in those for now though, until I decide what I'm best in! For now, poker is only for recreation while my knee mends...my true vocation is Nursing...but it's tabled till the knee mends. So everyday is poker day & I'm just beginning to win.
belerophon
Rock Star
Silver Level
As someone who built a small br from nothing and after a necessary cash out is rebuilding it again I want to say thanks for the solid advice. I'll be rereading it periodically.
I may have skipped over similar replies but I can only agree part way with your advice on mtt's. I feel mtt's are fine as long as the person knows how to play an mtt even with the variance. For new persons I'd say avoid them.
I like the satellite idea as one of my biggest increases to my br was a satellite to the Sunday Million I won but I just kept the Buy in. My experience has been that these often have some good fish hoping for the big score.
I may have skipped over similar replies but I can only agree part way with your advice on mtt's. I feel mtt's are fine as long as the person knows how to play an mtt even with the variance. For new persons I'd say avoid them.
I like the satellite idea as one of my biggest increases to my br was a satellite to the Sunday Million I won but I just kept the Buy in. My experience has been that these often have some good fish hoping for the big score.
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forsakenone
Legend
Silver Level
ship em imo.
forsakenone
Legend
Silver Level
still no idea if they have been shipped or not.
alaskabill
Legend
Silver Level
I feel like a serial poster today but I have to say great post by OZ and great discussion. I really felt like I learned something. Exhibit A of why this forum is one of the best free poker resources on the net.
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Note that I said multi table tournaments. I'll leave most of the rest alone because we're just going around in circles though FWIW Cardplayer52 has it exactly right - if you're not rolled for the tournament then you're not rolled to be satelliting into it on a regular basis either. Grinding the satellites is a different matter entirely... but then we're back to talking about playing single table or small field SnGs rather than actual MTTs.
One other thought. Try to remember that there are other MTTs than the Daily Dollar on Full Tilt. It's interesting that's the tournament a lot of people are talking about, and I think it might be warping judgement a little. The Daily Dollar is a deep stacked tournament that pretty much always has a huge overlay, an incredibly bad standard of play that makes it relatively easy to score a mincash in and jog my memory, isn't it rake free as well? The Daily Dollar is an anomaly though. Regular tournaments with regular structures and normal rake that don't have overlays that big (if at all) aren't anywhere near as attractive a proposition.
Anywho, I'm just sharing my experience. If MTTs work for you be my guest and play in as many as you like. For others who are having trouble getting a small bankroll off the ground though, giving them up in favour of STTs or ring games might be worth a try.
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
Most of the members who join CC, or any forum for that matter will have accomplished at least this;
Played a shitload of hands online,
Realized they were not as good as they thought they were,
Decided they might find some help via some discussion group,
So they goggle poker discussion or forum or whatever.
Once they get here the OP should probably be a must read. It details a plan. I too find faults with that plan, but I have millions of hands under my belt. It is a good plan for those without millions of hands under their belts.
The allure of the MTT for beginners is real. They know what the risk is, and for a new player who may have ventured into the ring and found sharks, the MTT seems much safer, with that fixed risk. They will not lose any more than their buy-in, usually very little. And a very savvy noob can pick tourneys up pretty fast. The really huge ROI's are in tourney play. The very very decent ROI's might be in ring.
The fault I find is not stressing the importance, to a noob, of not mixing tourney and ring. At the start, they should not be mixed.
I had to learn Holdem. I'm old and when I learned Poker, Holdem was not even on the radar. It was a kitchen variety usually played right after baseball in dealers choice games.
I too would prefer Stud 8. Would really prefer Horse, and I have sat at a Horse Ring game, but it isn't the same as a tourney. I prefer tourneys.
But for any newer player, nothing in Oz's post is wrong.
So I will add this; You who have not found a game you prefer yet, sit and figure it out. Spend an hour or several thinking about the different games you play. Ask yourself what your villains have been like and whether or not you think you have the wherewithal to overcome the game.
Played a shitload of hands online,
Realized they were not as good as they thought they were,
Decided they might find some help via some discussion group,
So they goggle poker discussion or forum or whatever.
Once they get here the OP should probably be a must read. It details a plan. I too find faults with that plan, but I have millions of hands under my belt. It is a good plan for those without millions of hands under their belts.
The allure of the MTT for beginners is real. They know what the risk is, and for a new player who may have ventured into the ring and found sharks, the MTT seems much safer, with that fixed risk. They will not lose any more than their buy-in, usually very little. And a very savvy noob can pick tourneys up pretty fast. The really huge ROI's are in tourney play. The very very decent ROI's might be in ring.
The fault I find is not stressing the importance, to a noob, of not mixing tourney and ring. At the start, they should not be mixed.
I had to learn Holdem. I'm old and when I learned Poker, Holdem was not even on the radar. It was a kitchen variety usually played right after baseball in dealers choice games.
I too would prefer Stud 8. Would really prefer Horse, and I have sat at a Horse Ring game, but it isn't the same as a tourney. I prefer tourneys.
But for any newer player, nothing in Oz's post is wrong.
So I will add this; You who have not found a game you prefer yet, sit and figure it out. Spend an hour or several thinking about the different games you play. Ask yourself what your villains have been like and whether or not you think you have the wherewithal to overcome the game.
R
Rmoneymaker8
Rising Star
Bronze Level
I was fortunate enough to start my bankroll with just $30 and built it to over 300. it took me a few months but its steady and I survived a huge down swing from every bad beat you can think of. It takes a TON of patience and hard work. And you have to play small limits that fit your bankroll.
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Congrats - you caught the upside of variance.
But I really don't think there's any debate to be had on this point: MTTs are about as high-variance as poker games come. Is anyone actually disputing that?
This isn't some personal jihad against MTTs on my part or anything and I'm certainly not looking to insult the people that play them. I'm just pointing out the fact that they're very high variance, and very high variance is very bad for us if we're trying to turn, say $20 or less into a proper bankroll. For every person that catches the upside like you did there will be dozens that will end up broke and having to start from scratch.
F
fletchdad
Was good while it was good. It no longer is.
Loyaler
Well, I caught the sarcasm......
Good post Oz. And havent you read enough of Poker Orifices posts to detect when he is taking the piss? lol
TheKAAHK
Bubble Punter
Loyaler
Wow, great post OZ. While I found myself following most of your guidlines anyways, I have repetaedly found myself being drawn to the allure of the big MTT's, and consequently losing the majority of my 'roll. SNG's are my strongest format, and I know I should stick to those, but like all of us, I am fallable and constantly mess shit up.
I don't know how I missed this thread for so long, but it is now bookmarked and I will be constantly checking in for more discussion on the subject. Thank you.
BTW, MrWhatever, I see your point in grinding satty's. Many satty players (esp at the micro level) play horrible and it is reletively easy to get the ticket. I have a stack of Level 3 Steps tickets and an assload of DD tokens. Just don't have the time atm to play any MTT's.
I don't know how I missed this thread for so long, but it is now bookmarked and I will be constantly checking in for more discussion on the subject. Thank you.
BTW, MrWhatever, I see your point in grinding satty's. Many satty players (esp at the micro level) play horrible and it is reletively easy to get the ticket. I have a stack of Level 3 Steps tickets and an assload of DD tokens. Just don't have the time atm to play any MTT's.
