Ever get the feeling that online poker is rigged?

[mjavor]

I've been playing realy money latly, I've noticed people are a lot more aggresive with real money, I also hit better cards, just in the past to days, I've hit quads 3 times.

That is becuase you are new. They don't want you to lose all your money right away, or else you will not deposit. One of the rigs is to let new players win a decent amount of money. But don't you worry, you have my word, you will start losing it... all.

 

[Zypher22]

Why would they do this? Lets say I have Q-Q and you have A-K and another player has J-10 and the flop comes A-K-Q what's going to happen? There is going to be a lot of betting and a good sized pot, and a good sized pot means a bigger rake for the poker site.

Ok a hand that just happened 2 minutes ago at Paradise in a wsop freeroll.

I'm low on chips and am the small blind. By the time the betting gets to me 1 player had raised and 2 have called, I have pocket AA so I go all in. I get 2 callers. The flop comes Q-A-10. First bettor goes all in and the other person calls. Turn over the cards....I have Pocket AA for Trips Aces, the next person has Pocket 10s for Trips 10s and the third person has Pocket Qs for Trips Qs.

 

[The_Missnary]

I think it seems rigged because of the ability to see SO MANY hands over the course of an hour or two. No shuffle waits, no dealer tips, etc.. You easily see twice the hands or more than you would a normal game, so it's easy to think odd things are happening more often (because they are).

 

[beardyian]

Dont you think its strange to only ever read notes from people who lost - the ones who win the hands seem to carry on playing happily.

The losers of these hands become convinced that some multi-logarithm computer program has it in for them or that everyone else on the table are sending signals to each other.

Basically sometimes you lose

iANft
uke:

 

[marauder]

I think that it is rigged to an extent. I mean if you spent the time i bet you could find a pattern as i doubt that is possible for them to come up with a completely random algorithm to base their program in.

You won't find any patterns because you'd have to watch all the games for at least three days. And my feeling is they are rigged. Not to a very great extent, just to ensure that they get as much money as possible. It 's a business after all... lol

Dont you think its strange to only ever read notes from people who lost - the ones who win the hands seem to carry on playing happily.

The losers of these hands become convinced that some multi-logarithm computer program has it in for them or that everyone else on the table are sending signals to each other.

Basically sometimes you lose

iANft
uke:

I don't complain. I'm just saying what I think. And a won a couple of thousands dollars. I lost it on a stupid all in, but that was my bad.

 

[xxxmonsterxxx]

Dont you think its strange to only ever read notes from people who lost - the ones who win the hands seem to carry on playing happily.

More people can remember the bad beats than great victories. It's human instinct. Just something to ponder...

 

[pcktrockts]

i dont think it is possible to have it rigged but i take a bad beat i think it is rigged...That is only because i am pissed off
I do see some pretty bad beats that i can not believe just happened....alot of people have a hard time laying down big hands...if you think your beat fold it

 

[Atticus01]

i think online poker is rigged too......its seems that you win a big tournament and your up 100$ and then the next day you cant seem to win anything.....maybe its just bad luck, i dunno.....still love to play online poker

 

[MsStyque]

[font=&quot]Do you ever get the feeling that online poker is rigged? I mean, some of the stuff that I see happen on there doesn’t seem possible. Especially after a certain has a great win/loss record, it seems like he can't win again, like they are giving his money away to the people who have no idea how to play.

Besides, there is no way to regulate the poker sites, to make sure they are not ripping us off, right?

Does anyone else think there is someone going on with online poker, or is it just me?[/font]?

I sometimes feel this way. It seems like when you are winning big, you either get moved to another table or start getting miserable hands. It happens too consistently to be chance.

 

[Zypher22]

Dont you think its strange to only ever read notes from people who lost - the ones who win the hands seem to carry on playing happily.

The losers of these hands become convinced that some multi-logarithm computer program has it in for them or that everyone else on the table are sending signals to each other.

Basically sometimes you lose

Why would they do this? Lets say I have Q-Q and you have A-K and another player has J-10 and the flop comes A-K-Q what's going to happen? There is going to be a lot of betting and a good sized pot, and a good sized pot means a bigger rake for the poker site.

Ok a hand that just happened 2 minutes ago at Paradise in a WSOP freeroll.

I'm low on chips and am the small blind. By the time the betting gets to me 1 player had raised and 2 have called, I have pocket AA so I go all in. I get 2 callers. The flop comes Q-A-10. First bettor goes all in and the other person calls. Turn over the cards....I have Pocket AA for Trips Aces, the next person has Pocket 10s for Trips 10s and the third person has Pocket Qs for Trips Qs.

My trip aces did hold up to be the best hand and I won, I'm not complaining because I lost, I'm complaining because it seems you see alot of huge hands all at the same time, possibly to induce more betting, and I really feel bad for the other 2 players who when they hit trips on the flop had to think they had the hand forsure. Just sucks when you have a huge hand beat by a bigger hand, and it seems to happen alot in online poker.

I understand that online you see more hands but still odds have to be there, I saw 3 Royal flushes over the course of a week (2 of them were on back to back days), the odds of that happening are probably .001 or less, unless you play 24/7(which I don't) I might see 800 hands a week, if that.

 

[Buster Gonad]

On quite a few sites now they have independent auditors (usually Price Waterhouse Coopers), They say that:
"We have performed standard stastical tests on the records of the decks generated by the random number generator (RNG) contained within the log files provided to us by management. We confirm that based on our testing of these log files covering the period 1 July 2004 to 30 Sept 2004:
- Cards dealt in each poker game were selected from a standard deck of fifty two playing cards; and
- The cards were dealt from the deck such that each card had an equal chance of being selected unless it had already been dealt in the same poker game"

I suppose this goes some way to allaying fears, but I don't like the fact that managemnt supplied the logs, rather than PWC just getting them directly off the servers.. who knows if the figures have been diddled.

I also don't like the system of choosing the next card 'on-the-fly' rather than using the RNG to shuffle a deck first and then deal from that deck (just like in the real game). The on-the-fly method relies on time as well as the RNG, so taking a few milliseconds longer on a check or call will result in a different card being turned. If the whole deck was 'shuffled' (via RNG) first and then cards dealt from that, you know that the flop, turn and river are FIXED and cannot change (even though you don't know what they are yet).

As the cards are chosen 'on-the-fly' if the pokersites want to get up to some shenanigans then they can quite easliy (I'll get my broom . A card could be changed before it is dealt when using the on-the-fly method and there is no real signs to indicate any naughtiness - a different card can simply be chosen. If the deck is pre-shuffled though, you would have to change the whole deck to change a single card within. Logs would indicate which 'shuffled' pack was used to play with, and tampering would be IMMEDIATELY obvious (to auditor type dudes).

Just my 2 cents!

Buster Gonad
(minus 2 cents)

 

[RammerJammer]

If so many of you are convinced that all, most, or even some poker sites are "rigged", why do you keep playing? How stupid would someone have to be to keep throwing their money away in a crooked game? Hands down, that is even dumber than the rigging allegations themselves! :stupido2:

Yes...some ...most...sites are in fact rigged. I wish I could disclose how I know this but I cant. And you DO NOT SEE THE SAME THINGS IN BRICK & MORTAR GAMES. I go to and paly 2-4 times aweek in atlantic city. I lived in Las vegas for 3 years and my ex was a poker dealer....There is an advantage to the site if they control the outcome...who ever said it wasn't to their advantage should probably stop playing cards right now...or at least only play for free.

I submit a new nominee for "Most Ludicrous Post of the Month". :withstupi

 

[loaner246]

i'll tell you how

it's not rigging the cards that let's someone win or lose. it's dealing the action flops to keep at least two people betting to the river. one person is delt k,k while the other is delt k,q...then the flop comes Q,J,10...if a flop like that doesnt give the house a bigger rake...i dont' know what does..too many sites have action flops that have flush, pairs, open end and gutshot straights on every hand. you almost never see a board such as this q,5,a,6,2...almost every flop is 6,6,7,8,a or something like that...if the site can get people betting to the river, they get a bigger rake...no question about it if you ask me...it's the action flops that do it for the sites

 

[goldfinger1217]

I have noticed alot of "action flops online" It seems that every time aplayer has a great hand preflop someone will have monster as well.and also some of the bad beats I have taken while waiting for mywithdrawl to clear r rediculas.They have the nerve to offer to cancel your withdrawl instead of making additional deposits that just seems kind of fishy to me.

 

[wrestlenrun]

I have put some real bad beats on people offline but i swear some of the ones online just kill me. After making approximately 200 in a week two weeks ago ive lost more than half of it and they all seem to be bad beats ( at least most of them lol). When you go on a bad run everything seems lk a bad beat

 

[racefanswife]

rigged?

hey i hear ya i feel that way sometimes but i think alot of the time its just the way cards work sometimes.ive seen crazy things happen in live games too!!but i really believe that the casino games are manipulated to a percentage of payout(obviously)but when getting a no deposit bonus the site knows exactly how many hands you have to spin or play and have it calculated to the dollar to not be any cash left when you are finally eligible for the cashout..but poker sites i believe more honest their money comes from the rake so they really shouldnt care who wins!! unless there are bots or playwers that play for the site. my fweelings and thoughts anyway... racefanswife

 

[PokrPlay24]

I too feel like some fishy things happen online that wouldnt in a home game. I just think they are subtle enough to go undetected..

 

[5starscotty]

not rigged.......

In my opinion, it is not rigged but the random num. generator basically is reshuffling after every card displayed..(difff between live and online) most important is the collusion aspect of multiple phone.. or ip addresses..or friends im'ing or talking on phone from across town or country ...known people who have done it ..but the sites keep track of certain things :albertein

We also see a much greater amount of hands online in an hour as compared to online ...so the beats look more frequent....and accumulate in your memory as such...it all depends on how you decipher that...realize its online..more hands an hour...and go on...use your normal statistic's such as how many times will i hit a flush n this scenario...etc. etc..to me this is why it looks rigged....:bom:

i meant to say we see more hands online an hour as compared to live...thanks...first day with my 10 thumbs:musicus:

 

[RammerJammer]

In my opinion, it is not rigged but the random num. generator basically is reshuffling after every card displayed..(difff between live and online)

That's the first time I've heard that the RNG is active throughout the hand. I have always been under the impression that the RNG assembles the entire hand prior to the deal, then reveals the cards. Can anyone else confirm that the RGN is "reshuffling" the remaining deck before each card? If so, that only further diminishes the host's ability to stack a hand and cuts even deeper into the conspiracy theory.

 

[5starscotty]

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HOW RANDOM IS pokerstars REALLY??????????????????
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Homeless



Joined: 21 Jan 2004
Posts: 2

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:11 pm Post subject: HOW RANDOM IS POKERSTARS REALLY??????????????????

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Please let me know what your feelings are regarding Pokerstars randomness they said they have proof from randomness but i dont think it is so random maybe its just me! but alot of weird and bad beats more then anyother site

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EmpireMaker2



Joined: 04 Feb 2004
Posts: 6

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:42 am Post subject:

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I have experinced this to, to the point that I have quit playing poker stars. I have talked to a person that says the hand genarator that they have is far less then any other poker room. This causes posssible flushes on every hand, or straights. It really started bugging me when I played Omaha causing an amazing hand to win a pot.

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TexasGonzo



Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 1
Location: Waco Texas
Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 11:13 pm Post subject: Pokerstars is NOT random on the Shuffle

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Finally, I have searched for a place to voice my opinion about this site, Pokerstars is an easy to use site loaded with players. I have never played at their pay tables (and never will) because if the card shuffle is the same as their play tables then they are for sure corupt, i have played on their site and many others over the last year (daily) and I can tell you for darn sure that there is NO #WAY they are fair, flushes come up about every 3rd hand, much more often than straights, and at least 2 out of every 4 times I fold on the pre flop I have noticed that one or both of my cards will show up in the flop, after having played real poker for the last 30+ years and have a math background I know the odds of poker (real poker) if you want to gamble (and I do mean gamble) play on their site, because if sure is NOT real poker (Texas hold em are the games I have been talking about here) I would never tell anyone to play for real money on that site unless as I have said, you want to really gamble, because thats all you will be doing.

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2fouroffsuit



Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Arvada
Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 7:17 pm Post subject: once again may be old but...

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first of all, i firmly believe that it is random. With that said, let me explain a few things and feel free to correct me on anything that you believe is false.

the main thing that is different from "real" poker is that things are done at a much more accelerated pace... you will see 2-3 times as many hands as you will sitting at a normal card room. Therefore with the same amount of bad beats proportionally, you will expect to se 2-3 times as many bad beats.

Next, do you think pokerstars cares? do you think they have people sitting there on computers programming the next card to be a miracle card? that would require way too much effort. their code is as random if not more random than any other site. It would take entirely way to much work to get the code to favor any particular person or draw...

this is from pokerstars's security page:
A deck of 52 cards can be shuffled in 52! ways. 52! is about 2225. We use 249 random bits from both entropy sources (user input and thermal noise) to achieve an even and unpredictable statistical distribution.
Furthermore, we apply conservative rules to enforce the required degree of randomness; for instance, if user input does not generate required amount of entropy, we do not start the next hand until we obtain the required amount of entropy from Intel RNG.
We use the SHA-1 cryptographic hash algorithm to mix the entropy gathered from both sources to provide an extra level of security
We also maintain a SHA-1-based pseudo-random generator to provide even more security and protection from user data attacks
To convert random bit stream to random numbers within a required range without bias, we use a simple and reliable algorithm. For example, if we need a random number in the range 0-25:
we take 5 random bits and convert them to a random number 0-31
if this number is greater than 25 we just discard all 5 bits and repeat the process
This method is not affected by biases related to modulus operation for generation of random numbers that are not 2n, n = 1,2,..
To perform an actual shuffle, we use another simple and reliable algorithm:
first we draw a random card from the original deck (1 of 52) and place it in a new deck - now original deck contains 51 cards and the new deck contains 1 card
then we draw another random card from the original deck (1 of 51) and place it on top of the new deck - now original deck contains 50 cards and the new deck contains 2 cards
we repeat the process until all cards have moved from the original deck to the new deck
This algorithm does not suffer from "Bad Distribution Of Shuffles" described in [2]


although i do believe that it is typical for poor players to find things to blame their losses on... because obviously it could not be thier own fault.
Getting outdrawn and bad beats are part of the game... if you can't deal with that, than in the words of Doc Holiday, " Maybe poker isn't your game"

From one who has been outdrawn on more than anyone here except maybe juice...

-2four

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Juice



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 112
Location: Probably at a poker table
Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 8:24 am Post subject:

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Quote: although i do believe that it is typical for poor players to find things to blame their losses on... because obviously it could not be thier own fault.

Hey, is that a crack at me? 8)

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2fouroffsuit



Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Arvada
Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 5:50 am Post subject: nah never

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nah it wasnt a crack it was saying that, we all had our fair share of suckouts against us and i think that you would have more than me because you have been playing longer and i think that you are usually holding the better hand and people having to outdraw you to win...



nah juice i wouldn't makee a crack like that on you..

-2four

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bubaseballfan
Guest





Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:43 am Post subject: fairness of pokerstars and others

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Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 7:17 pm Post subject: once again may be old but...

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first of all, i firmly believe that it is random. With that said, let me explain a few things and feel free to correct me on anything that you believe is false.

the main thing that is different from "real" poker is that things are done at a much more accelerated pace... you will see 2-3 times as many hands as you will sitting at a normal card room. Therefore with the same amount of bad beats proportionally, you will expect to se 2-3 times as many bad beats.


Next, do you think pokerstars cares? do you think they have people sitting there on computers programming the next card to be a miracle card? that would require way too much effort. their code is as random if not more random than any other site. It would take entirely way to much work to get the code to favor any particular person or draw...

>>>This last paragraph is exactly where you and others who believe in the randomness of the cards being generated. The obvious reason why the site provides outs for so many people is to keep more people in the hands, and thereby increasing the rake on each hand ever so slightly. With the 10s of thousands of hands being dealt daily, if the poker site can manage to increase the action enough to raise the rake $.10 per hand, that's $100,000 per million hands, and I believe that the sites go through about 1,000,000 hands every week or so. That's a 5.2 million dollar increase in revenue a year. It's about money, not about programming the code to work for a particular person.
On another note, I have taken my hand history from these sites and done a statistical analysis on the amount of flush possibilities, straight draws, and rainbow flops, none of which come close to live poker hand percentages...so I guess I disagree with you that online poker-rooms are exactly random, and yes, it is obvious that they are not.

If any of you find any that are not "rigged" please post, the most faithful until recently was pacificpoker.com, but recently they required a "software update" and they too have turned hot. Others who have been proven to be somewhat unrealistic are: pokerstars, party/empire poker, pokerroom

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Juice
Guest


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 112
Location: Probably at a poker table
Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 6:56 am Post subject:

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I have played over 100,000 hands at Poker Stars and have them all stored in a PokerTracker (an awesome program used to analyze your play) database. Virtually everything is statistically as it should be. It should be noted that when I only had 20,000 hands in the database there were a lot of statistical anomalies. My point being that you must analazye a lot more hands that you'd probably suspect in order to get an accurate representation of the kinds of hands being dealt.

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Widersacher
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Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 1
Location: Paderborn, germany
Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:08 am Post subject: Re: once again may be old but...

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Quote: A deck of 52 cards can be shuffled in 52! ways. 52! is about 2225.

I don't believe that this is right.
My calculator says 8,0658175170943878571660636856404e+67.
But this figure is about 2^225.5 perhaps that is meant.

Widersacher

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[RammerJammer]

Okay, thanks for sharing all of the above, but isn't that just another excerpt from another forum group discussing the same subject? I'm looking for documentation from a recognized, authoritative third party source. We can quote other poker geeks all day if we want to. Gets us nowhere.

 

[methos]

I usually hear people suggest the game is rigged when...

1) Someone goes all in with say, 4 7, and makes a str8 - the game's rigged then for the noob to win. If they wanted the noob to win, I would think they'd give him decent starting hands, not reward the fact he played crap. That makes no sense.
2) The big stack wins more. Duh. The fact that they have the big stack proves the poker gods are on his side today (but who wants to admit luck is actually a factor, oh, no, it's entirely skill), Plus the big stack can afford to play more marginal hands.
3) (my favorite) all tournaments end at the same time, so obviously the game is rigged to end after a certain time. Hello? the blind determine the game ending. How long is a tourn going to last once the blinds are, say, 100k? I was at Absolute once (the king of technical problems) when the blinds stopped going up after around 3 hours. 5 hours later we were still playing, with people rarely getting knocked out (we were some serious addicts).
Though I am curious about what, if any regulations there are. For example, at the casinos, video poker has to have the same odds of certain hands hitting as there would be if the cards were dealt from a deck. Are there any regulations at all on line? Are there any for US based ones, but not European?
Oh, and as I mentioned in a different posting, I don't know anyone who got their free $20 at royal vegas who didn't win for the first couple weeks. So I think that program's set to give the noobs better hands.

 

[CWDavis]

i often wonder this same thing. it would certainly appear as such. or maybe i'm a sore loser, lol. but it does make you wonder if the random seating ends up ........less than random, and the predetermination of winners, there is a whole new topic. hagd

 

[chipshunter]

Pokersites are not rigged, sheesh! How can you think just because you have a bad streak or get beaten by a foolish player doing something stupid counts as rigged.

Odds are odds and sometimes the 1:100 does happen and sometimes more often than 1:100. I had pockets aces dealt to me twice in a row and 4 times in that one tourney. I did not lose any of them either because I played them very strong and did not allow the badbeat to come my way. I also have won my share of "Big Blind Specials" as I call them. The most memorable was a 72os and no one raised preflop and I flopped 2 pair. The rive gave me a fullboat and I won my allin bet against AA and a flush in the small blind. Rigged no, lucky yes to be sitting in the BB otherwise I am folding preflop.

I have statistical data. I the month that I was winning a lot, I made about 48 percent of my 50/50 races. Then the site saw me winning too much, and this month I'm 32% in 50/50 races.

Not to mention, I have 10 bad beats in my favor vs. 39 bad beats against me!! Its rigged, I know it.

Were the 50/50 races in your favor the first month before the outcome and what about in the 2nd month. Those stats are too hard to decifer properly, we need more info!

Same goes for the badbeats. Perhaps you folded 50 possible badbeat hands because you are not a stupid, reckless player!

Do you win ever game of War or Go Fish against your kids? I don't. Perhaps it is rigged or they are cheating. Nope just the luck or badluck of the games we play!

 

[teddybeahr]

I have to say that I sometimes strongly feel that the pokerroom may be rigged (if there is such thing). Yesterday day night i was insanely lucky, so i dont complain. But in the meantime: The pokersites could never gain something in having their site rigged. Because they want players to come back. They just take the rake, and thats it. Afterall, anything can happen in poker, and sometimes, you're simply unlucky.