DOJ adds Lederer/Ferguson/Furst to Complaint - Claims defrauded poker players

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fletchdad

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I knew things were not good when this went down
/quote]

bye bye my $1000.......:mad:

Guess its my fault as well for not withdrawing when it was good but I was working on a promotion and was naive enough to believe non US accounts would be ok...............


"Uhh ..... when we're ready"......
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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I knew QuadJacks was lame when this went down

FYP - IMO they did a terrible job with that piece. Kudos to them for actually tracking him down and getting a camera there in time, but everything they did after that was just lame.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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In a true Ponzi Scheme, investors are promised unrealistic rates of return on their investments and are then paid off with funds raised by subsequent investors. It's all an illusion as no money is actually ever invested in anything. The big difference is that Full Tilt is not an investment broker and never promised any return at all. FTP may be guilty of alot of things but as far as I can tell this whole talk of a Ponzi scheme is just alot of noise concocted by the DOJ to scare the public discredit the entire online poker industry.

- This is really just meaningless semantics, but a Ponzi scheme utilizes funds from subsequent investors (read: the players) to pay the initial investors (read: Lederer et al). Because of how business usually works they do tend to offer unrealistically high returns to new investors, but that wasn't necessary in this case because people were attracted simply by the lure of playing online poker and the potential riches that that entails. The offer of huge returns is usually a necessary part of a Ponzi scheme, but it isn't what defines it.

- Full Tilt promised people that their money was safe and that they had funds on hand to cover everyone's account balance.

FT ToS said:
The money with which you pay for gaming transactions will be deposited with and held by us pending the outcome of the poker tournaments in which you participate and the poker games in which you play.

edit: lmao when did FT add this to their ToS

Customer funds are not segregated from company funds, but it is the intention of Filco Ltd to meet its liabilities as they fall due.
 
serendipity

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One of my first posts after joining this site a couple of years ago was in defense of the "online-poker-is-rigged" crowd. My contention was that although the classic accusations of stacked decks, hole-card-peekers and runner-runner coolers were probably false on the big sites, one could still argue that online poker was indeed "rigged". I went on to address player collusion and how it was impossible to root it out, and the possibility that even the major poker sites were not on the up-and-up. Oh dear did I learn a lesson! My post was subsequently moved to the rigged thread after I had taken 72 hours of personal abuse from the most vociferous online-poker-is-NOT-rigged posters. So after several hundred humble posts at this site over the past 2 years, I would like to now respond with a big, "I told you so."
 
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fletchdad

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One of my first posts after joining this site a couple of years ago was in defense of the "online-poker-is-rigged" crowd. My contention was that although the classic accusations of stacked decks, hole-card-peekers and runner-runner coolers were probably false on the big sites, one could still argue that online poker was indeed "rigged". I went on to address player collusion and how it was impossible to root it out, and the possibility that even the major poker sites were not on the up-and-up. Oh dear did I learn a lesson! My post was subsequently moved to the rigged thread after I had taken 72 hours of personal abuse from the most vociferous online-poker-is-NOT-rigged posters. So after several hundred humble posts at this site over the past 2 years, I would like to now respond with a big, "I told you so."

My take on this is, its a shame you feel you need to post this......................... But I guess some people just enjoy salting the wounds........
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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I had 16 hours in the mod pool for "how long will it take someone to completely inappropriately mention the 'r'-word"! I'M RICH HELL YEAH!

its a shame you feel you need to post this

This, too.

e: anyway, back to matters at hand

the revised complaint said:
As a result, according to a balance sheet prepared
by Full Tilt Poker, as of March 31, 2011, Full Tilt Poker owed
players from around the world over approximately $390,695,788 but
had only approximately $59,579,413 in its bank accounts. Full
Tilt Poker relied on new deposits from players to ensure its
ability to fund withdrawals to players’ accounts.
 
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serendipity

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Oh dear! Here it is again. I guess I should have expected this. After all, how many people have we seen ridiculed on this site for the mere suggestion that our pastime is not on the up-and-up? And it comes from the crowd that wants so badly for online poker to be legit, they just can't help but attack those who might suggest otherwise.

I guess it will do no good, but I will add that I am in the same boat. I too lost a considerable amount of money at Pitbull, Absolute, Ulimate Bet and Full Tilt. So my rub-it-in comment is not for those who lost money, but for those posters here who constantly badgered and ridiculed anyone and everyone that even hinted that online poker could be illegit.
 
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onemorechance

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breakingbad01.gif
 
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fletchdad

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I guess it will do no good, but I will add that I am in the same boat. I too lost a considerable amount of money at Pitbull, Absolute, Ulimate Bet and Full Tilt. So my rub-it-in comment is not for those who lost money, but for those posters here who constantly badgered and ridiculed anyone and everyone that even hinted that online poker could be illegit.

Well, the wording in your first post was I told you so, so that is rubbing it in to people like me who lost a considerable amount of money.

And I think you need to re read some of the posts you are mentioning. I have chided people who claim poker is rigged when it seems pretty clear they play bad thus losing and were not being targeted by the sites as they claimed. But, everyone I know here at CC is aware that some sites are dubious and that some sites instigated cheating people out of money, and no one claims that every poker site is squeaky clean. Take UB as only one example. And now FT. But it was not plainly obvious before BF that FT was running their business badly, as many player withdrew money without problems. Their games, software, website etc were extremely popular. It was a blow to many to have this happen, but anyone who now with their 20/20 hindsight vision claiming this was SOOO obvious is doing just that 20/20 hindsight vision

No one badgers anyone for saying that a cheater cheated, when it is made clear. A bank, a government, a poker room - almost any institution is theoretically capable of cheating people, client, citizens, customers, what have you. No one argues that this is not a possibility. But online poker is a business, and they will want to keep the slates as clean as possible in MOST cases in order to make a LOT of money. A crooked poker room does not make all poker crooked.
 
JusSumguy

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This has nothing to do with "rigged" poker. The play was solid.

This has to do with the named powers, KNOWING THERE WERE FINANCIAL PROBLEMS, digging into players money whilst carrying on like there was no problem.

I'm pretty sure it's called theft.


-
 
vanquish

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One of my first posts after joining this site a couple of years ago was in defense of the "online-poker-is-rigged" crowd. My contention was that although the classic accusations of stacked decks, hole-card-peekers and runner-runner coolers were probably false on the big sites, one could still argue that online poker was indeed "rigged". I went on to address player collusion and how it was impossible to root it out, and the possibility that even the major poker sites were not on the up-and-up. Oh dear did I learn a lesson! My post was subsequently moved to the rigged thread after I had taken 72 hours of personal abuse from the most vociferous online-poker-is-NOT-rigged posters. So after several hundred humble posts at this site over the past 2 years, I would like to now respond with a big, "I told you so."



i hereby claim that obama is killing old people in a secret government dungeon.
oh i'm sorry your grandma just tripped over a nerf football and fell down the stairs into the basement and died?



TOLD YOU ABOUT OBAMA'S DUNGEON!
 
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Ernster86

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This has nothing to do with "rigged" poker. The play was solid.

-

I wouldnt be so sure about that. These poker site owners are money addicts they are capable of anything.

Having said that pokerstars would be pretty stupid to be doing anything shady after BF.
 
Debi

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Keep this thread on topic and refrain from turning it into another poker is rigged debate. This has nothing to do with that at all.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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PurgatoryD

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If you followed the story, there was no legal requirement for FT or other sites to keep ANY reserve. All we had was THEIR WORD as trusted poker pros that your money was SAFE.

I understand that there was no such legal requirement by FTP. What I don't understand is this:

FTP had one of the most successful online poker sites IN THE ENTIRE WORLD. From a business perspective (not a legal one), it was, in my opinion, completely ludicrous to risk their entire operation by not backing player deposits. If I could have gotten my hands on just 1% of the rake they were taking...

Anyhow, not only was it a stupid business move, but it gives complete credence to the argument that online poker needs to be regulated. Previously, I thought the market could regulate itself. I was obviously wrong.

I suppose FTP is not alone in its greed and stupidity. US banks had a similar problem of "over leveraging" themselves, and I understand some European banks and governments are having problems as well. Maybe it's just human nature. <sigh>
 
Charade You Are

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Dwan missed an opportunity to say if poker were regulated in the U.S., this may not have happened. ("May" because the financial meltdown here was excerbated by so-called "regulated" entitites.)

They are not being charged with a "ponzi" scheme, they are being charged with fraud: "defrauded its poker players by misrepresenting to players that funds deposited into their online player accounts were secure and segregated from operating funds"...

Old man Preet is known for his over-the-top press releases and loves to use hot-button words.

It further goes on to say: ..in or about the summer of 2010, Full Tilt Poker’s payment processing channels were so disrupted that the company faced increasing difficulty attempting to collect funds from players in the United States. Rather than disclose this fact, Full Tilt Poker simply credited players’ online gambling accounts with money that had never actually been collected from the players’ bank accounts.

Disrupted? Meaning Seized by the DOJ.

FTP NEVER should have credited player accounts with money not yet received. (Can see all the posts now about FTP not crediting deposits soon enough.) And player accounts should absolutely been segregated.
 
JamesDaBear

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$60m in funds available at FT

$400m owed to players total

$440m paid in dividends over 4 years

tom dwan's opinion: "borderline theft"

:hmmmm:

I can't believe he doesn't have an incredibly expensive lawyer telling him to stay silent.

Tom Dwan has a really expensive lawyer telling him he did nothing wrong since he has no ownership stake in the company and is offering to pay back all his money.

Link to an article with the top 50 Qs answered by Tom Dwan. It's a must read, but remove the link if this violates any CC policy.
 
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buster999

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Full tilt had big flaws in thier depositing system. I made a deposit of 300 and never got charged for it. I had two cards on file which I made a deposit on the quick depsoit option. I thought it would charge my card i mad my last deposit on but it charged the card I had originally set up with quick deposit. It charged my card I had no money on and it got denied. I never got asked to repay and I still was able to make future withdraws and deposits. It has taken FT up to 12 days in the past before my card was actually charged for my deposit.once I figured out what day they would charge me sometimes I would deposit with no money on my card and reload it before I got charged. I think there was a lot of money deposited and lost before FT could even collect the funds on Blackfriday. Don't know if a weeks worth of credit card deposits would add up to 150million for us players but, I think this flaw has a part in the FT collapse. Sorry, If me not repaying money I owed pisses you off but how many people are really that honorable. I expected to get charged eventually and still wont be surprised If I get a bill some day
 
vanquish

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rofl so u stole a bunch of money from FT?
 
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buster999

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yep, just pointing out there flaws. Would have paid them if they asked me. not my fault they can't keep there **** together
 
vanquish

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are you the type of person that borrows $20 from a friend and doesn't pay it back until they ask you to?
 
Debi

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From what I can gather even if he noticed a month later that the funds were still in his account - FTP would have been too stupid to know what to do about it.

Don't blame the players who made the deposits - FT knew this was happening and failed to take the funds back from their FT accounts. I guess they were hoping that eventually they would get the money and wanted the players to be spending it meanwhile. Dumb shits.
 
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