Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[Figaroo2]

I love CardsChat.....I managed to take this down this evening...I Phone 6 in the house
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/car...hat-iphone6-festival-william-hill-oct-251823/

 

[Fisi]

Congrats!

 

[John A]

John
How are you ranging him there on the button pre and after the flop?
Are u betting on the river or checking it down?
I thought there might still be value from mid pairs lower than ours.

I'm not sure. I think we might be getting hands confused at this point. I'm honestly not sure which comment this goes to. I thought I did but I gave up after my third re-read.

 

[John A]

I love CardsChat.....I managed to take this down this evening...I Phone 6 in the house
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/car...hat-iphone6-festival-william-hill-oct-251823/

Nice... sweet deal! Congrats.Goooo Cardschat... and Fig!

 

[Figaroo2]

Rhombus hand with the TT

I'm not sure. I think we might be getting hands confused at this point. I'm honestly not sure which comment this goes to. I thought I did but I gave up after my third re-read.

JOHN
I was talking about Rhoms hand with the TT....What range are we giving the caller preflop and how much are we tightening the range after the full pot flop bet. Are we betting the river here?

SB: $10 (100 bb)
BB: $4.40 (44 bb)
UTG: $10 (100 bb)
Hero (MP): $21.66 (216.6 bb)
CO: $6.72 (67.2 bb)
BTN: $40.92 (409.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with T

T

UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.30, CO folds, BTN calls $0.30, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.75) 2

2

6

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.70, BTN calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.15) J

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.40, BTN calls $1.40

River: ($4.95) A

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $3.70, Hero folds

Results: $4.95 pot ($0.22 rake)
Final Board: 2

2

6

J

A

Hero mucked T

T

and lost (-$2.40 net)
BTN mucked and won $4.73 ($2.33 net)

 

[Figaroo2]

John
Sorry to be a nuisance do you have any comment about the hand i posted at entry #1250. This is a step up in aggression level for me, I very rarely shove the third barrel like this as a bluff.

 

[John A]

JOHN
I was talking about Rhoms hand with the TT....What range are we giving the caller preflop and how much are we tightening the range after the full pot flop bet. Are we betting the river here?

No, you're not betting the river. Unless the opponent is floating with K high or something, there's no reason not to believe he has a hand so the appropriate line would be to check/fold the river.

 

[John A]

The raiser here is a loose fish, should I raise on the flop or turn or is it all a bit spewy?

Full Flush Poker Game #1199542016: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/0.50) - 2014/10/12 16:06:48 Table 'Dancing in the Street' 10-Max, Seat #7 is the button
Seat 8: (34.69 in chips) - Small Blind FISH
Seat 5: (28.73 in chips)
Seat 4: (24.68 in chips) - Sitting out
Seat 1: (58.99 in chips)
Seat 9: Figaroo2 (58.25 in chips) - Big Blind
Seat 0: (55.59 in chips)
Seat 7: (34.00 in chips) - The button
Seat 3: (24.25 in chips)
Seat 6: (69.53 in chips) - Sitting out
Seat 8: posts small blind 0.25
Figaroo2: posts big blind 0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Figaroo2 [10c Js]
Folds round
Seat 8: raises 0.75 to 1.00
Figaroo2: calls 0.50
*** FLOP *** [4c 9c 7s]
Seat 8: bets 2.00
Figaroo2: calls 2.00 gutshot overs and dubious backdoor flush...can we raise here?...I decided to wait a street and see what he does on the turn.

Blind on blind I'd just raise here. Most of the time he'll fold, and if he calls then you can decide what to do on the turn.

*** TURN *** [4c 9c 7s][3c]
Seat 8: bets 4.28
Figaroo2: raises 14.26 to 14.26 just straight on repping the flush here, any comments on sizing?
Seat 8: calls 9.98

Yeah, sizing is a problem because if he calls then your river options are a little slim. I think on a non scare card like this, you either need to go big planning on giving up on the river, or make a better sized raise to setup a river shove if you whiff. In this case then I'd make it about $11, and this will make for a better sized river shove. As played you're giving him a pretty decent price to call down with a 9x which will happen a decent amount on this kind of run out.

*** RIVER *** [4c 9c 7s 3c]Q♠
Seat 8: checks
Don't think I can win here without a significant bet
Figaroo2: bets 40.99 all in...he has about $19 behind
Seat 8: folds
Uncalled bet (40.99) returned to Figaroo2
Figaroo2 shows 10c Js
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 32.80 | Rake 1.72
Board [4c 9c 7s 3c Qs]
Seat 8: Seat 8 folded on the River
Seat 9: Figaroo2 showed [10c Js] and won (32.80)

Good that you gave it a shot. Just keep some of these things in mind. bluffing well takes some practice, but you really need to make sure you're making a good plan and telling a good story. Both of those have to be really well done or you'll end up donking off a stack.

 

[rhombus]

No, you're not betting the river. Unless the opponent is floating with K high or something, there's no reason not to believe he has a hand so the appropriate line would be to check/fold the river.

Thankss, always seem to have problems with overpairs, based on SPR what to bet on flop and Turn and when Ace or K appears Im like ????

NL Holdem $0.1(BB)
SB ($10)
BB ($4.4)
UTG ($10)
HERO ($21.66)
CO ($6.72)
BTN ($40.92)

Dealt to Hero T♠ T♥

UTG Folds , HERO Raises To $0.3 , CO Folds , BTN Calls $0.3 , SB Folds , BB Folds

Flop ($0.6) 2♥ 2♣ 6♠
HERO Bets $0.7 , BTN Calls $0.7

Turn ($2) 2♥ 2♣ 6♠ J♠
HERO Bets $1.4 , BTN Calls $1.4

River ($4.8) 2♥ 2♣ 6♠ J♠ A♣
HERO Checks , BTN Bets $3.7 , HERO Folds

BTN wins $4.73

 

[rhombus]

I love CardsChat.....I managed to take this down this evening...I Phone 6 in the house
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/car...hat-iphone6-festival-william-hill-oct-251823/

congrats

Must have been the best value game in town - $3.30 with 16 players

I was one of the unlucky ones as I already had William Hills

 

[John A]

Thankss, always seem to have problems with overpairs, based on SPR what to bet on flop and Turn and when Ace or K appears Im like ????

NL Holdem $0.1(BB)
SB ($10)
BB ($4.4)
UTG ($10)
HERO ($21.66)
CO ($6.72)
BTN ($40.92)

Dealt to Hero T♠ T♥

UTG Folds , HERO Raises To $0.3 , CO Folds , BTN Calls $0.3 , SB Folds , BB Folds

Flop ($0.6) 2♥ 2♣ 6♠
HERO Bets $0.7 , BTN Calls $0.7

Turn ($2) 2♥ 2♣ 6♠ J♠
HERO Bets $1.4 , BTN Calls $1.4

River ($4.8) 2♥ 2♣ 6♠ J♠ A♣
HERO Checks , BTN Bets $3.7 , HERO Folds

BTN wins $4.73

I think your sizing is fine. Maybe to be nit picky I'd be betting 1.3 on the turn if J-A hit. I'm not a fan of check calling when those cards hit OOP. You end up playing too many check/guess games versus a blind opponents range. And at these kinds of stakes people just randomly bet. So it's not like you could reasonably c/c the turn and then c/f the river. If you have some reasonable stats, then check/calling can be fine on those kinds of turns in this spot.

I think in this spot though you played the hand well.

 

[John A]

Since I've done a ton of work with Poker Tracker and Holdem Manager over the years, I did a little write up about the differences and where each of them excel. I hope this helps some people out who are trying to decide.

Poker Tracker vs Holdem Manager

 

[rhombus]

Since I've done a ton of work with Poker Tracker and Holdem Manager over the years, I did a little write up about the differences and where each of them excel. I hope this helps some people out who are trying to decide.

Poker Tracker vs Holdem Manager

should definitely help the ones who are undecided and trying the trial versions of both Apps.

Based on what you said would probably push people into getting the cloud version once its finalised and working properly if it eliminates the crashes and slowness if you dont have a top of the range PC.

 

[Tgen]

The topic about choosing a passive style or aggressive style was interesting , according to gto i think its possible for different approaches with certain hands to be correct at the same time , some will vbet thin and this will help them to bluff more while others will have a bigger check range and play more value in a passive manner.

Nevertheless , i just take a guess what spots the book mean we can play differently but can you elaborate more into this? what spots do you think we have the option to play them according to our preference? instead of the maximum ev line?

is it about preflop? postflop? our sdv range? value? ace high? bottom pairs?

 

[John A]

should definitely help the ones who are undecided and trying the trial versions of both apps.

Based on what you said would probably push people into getting the cloud version once its finalised and working properly if it eliminates the crashes and slowness if you dont have a top of the range PC.

Yeah, the new cloud version should help. There's certain things I personally like about both and wanted to do a write up for awhile since I've used and worked with both for a long time. My first database application was Poker Tracker 2.

 

[John A]

The topic about choosing a passive style or aggressive style was interesting , according to gto i think its possible for different approaches with certain hands to be correct at the same time , some will vbet thin and this will help them to bluff more while others will have a bigger check range and play more value in a passive manner.

Nevertheless , i just take a guess what spots the book mean we can play differently but can you elaborate more into this? what spots do you think we have the option to play them according to our preference? instead of the maximum ev line?

is it about preflop? postflop? our sdv range? value? ace high? bottom pairs?

Yes, GTO is all about playing the same hands slightly different in the same situations so that you make your opponents indifferent about his play because your whole range could play the same in each spot.

And I know GTO has become a nice buzz word this past year in poker, but really for small stakes and under I would not focus on this at all. If you want to learn it for the sake of learning it, that's cool. But really you should be focusing 100% on exploititive play at these levels and mastering that. GTO does more harm than good at these stakes. You need another opponent who is capable of thinking at a very high level, for GTO implementation to make sense. In the meantime you should be focusing on how to exploit your opponents weaknesses since they will have so many at these stakes.

As to your last question, it's a little too vague to address. Could you elaborate a little more or provide and example and I'll do my best to answer?

 

[Tgen]

Yes, GTO is all about playing the same hands slightly different in the same situations so that you make your opponents indifferent about his play because your whole range could play the same in each spot.

And I know GTO has become a nice buzz word this past year in poker, but really for small stakes and under I would not focus on this at all. If you want to learn it for the sake of learning it, that's cool. But really you should be focusing 100% on exploititive play at these levels and mastering that. GTO does more harm than good at these stakes. You need another opponent who is capable of thinking at a very high level, for GTO implementation to make sense. In the meantime you should be focusing on how to exploit your opponents weaknesses since they will have so many at these stakes.

As to your last question, it's a little too vague to address. Could you elaborate a little more or provide and example and I'll do my best to answer?

You misundestood what i meant about different approaches with gto , for example according to gto it might be correct to check/call in one spot with A-high or bet with it assuming you changed your whole range based on this , i mean on exactly the same spot it might be correct to play the *same* card strength in a different way if you made modifications on the rest of your range.

What you understood was that gto takes different approaches with different card strengths , yes thats true and i know it , this isnt what i said on my previous post.


About the aggressive vs passive way , for example:

effective stack sizes are 100b we 3-bet x9 someone with JJ , he is a regular and we have no reads , flop is A-6-2 rainbow and he check to us , is this a typical spot where a passive player differ from an aggressive one? an aggressive player might cbet this while a passive one would try to go to showdown. Both ways might be correct according to gto assuming the aggressive player has more bluffs and value on his raising range while the passive one plays some of his value in a passive manner to protect his sdv.

Do you agree with the above?

Another situations where those 2 styles differ are of course preflop situations like 3-bet vs calling a raise , postflop with a-high , bad pairs , second overpairs and so on , you probably understand what i mean.

Some play to go to showdown and make more spectacular calls while others just bet to make things easier.

Is this what the section about passive vs aggressive players meant? do you agree with everything i said?

 

[Figaroo2]

Tgen
Some styles of play work better against different opponents, working that out is the key to being successful.
Adjust your game specifically for the opponents you’re facing right now. You’ll be much more successful if you do that than if you use a one-size-fits-all strategy.
Aggressive is better, you have the two ways to win the pot and you will be sucked out on less.
Passive works against overly aggressive players who won't stop trying to push you off hands so you just call with your strong hands and rope a dope them.

 

[Figaroo2]

Interesting bvb hand, can we raise this river? Or is the chance of a flush make it too risky?

(poker stars $10.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, October 18, 09:51:41 ET 2014
Table Nongoma (real money)
Seat 1 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $9.85 USD ) - VPIP: 9, PFR: 5, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 55
Seat 2: Hero ( $36.69 USD ) - VPIP: 21, PFR: 12, 3B: 8, Ag%54 Hands: 88
Seat 4: Player4 ( $10.15 USD ) - VPIP: 12, PFR: 9, 3B: 6, AF: 1.8, Hands: 138
Seat 5: Player5 ( $10.25 USD ) - VPIP: 17, PFR: 14, 3B: 7, AF: 0.0, Hands: 36
Seat 6: Player6 ( $4.90 USD ) - VPIP: 38, PFR: 6, 3B: 25, AF: 0.0, Hands: 16
Seat 7: Player7 ( $10.00 USD ) - VPIP: 16, PFR: 8, 3B: 13, AF: 2.0, Hands: 61
Seat 8: Player8 ( $13.84 USD ) - VPIP: 13, PFR: 8, 3B: 0, AF: 3.0, Hands: 139
Seat 9: Player9 ( $4.85 USD ) - VPIP: 50, PFR: 33, 3B: 0, AF: 5.0, Hands: 18
Hero posts small blind [$0.05 USD].
Player4 posts big blind [$0.10 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Ks Jd ]
Player5 folds
Player6 folds
Player7 folds
Player8 folds
Player9 folds
Player1 folds
Hero raises [$0.25 USD]
Player4 calls [$0.20 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7s, 2s, 9h ]
Hero checks
Player4 checks
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qs ]
Hero bets [$0.28 USD]
Player4 raises [$0.70 USD]
Hero calls [$0.42 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ Th ]
Hero checks
Player4 bets [$1.60 USD]
Hero calls [$1.60 USD]
Player4 shows [9c, 9s ]
Hero shows [Ks, Jd ]
Hero wins $4.97 USD from main pot

 

[Fisi]

I think there might be value in min raising or raising small here, because he is almost always calling with 2pair and trips, and probably quite often with TP since it's BvB. If we get jammed on, I'm folding though.

 

[Figaroo2]

I think there might be value in min raising or raising small here, because he is almost always calling with 2pair and trips, and probably quite often with TP since it's BvB. If we get jammed on, I'm folding though.

Yeah looking at this again I was put off betting as he didn't raise pre or bet the flop and then comes alive when a flush card arrives. Hard to put him on top set here and he looked to me like he was betting for value on the river with a flush. Not beating myself up over this missed spot. Im actually more annoyed with my vpip/pfr gap creeping back again this session. This always seems to happen when im playing with fish. I mean look at the stats of these players and this guy was the best of a bad bunch and he's not raising 99 bvb!?. 10nl very soft at the weekends I can't stop myself calling with spec hands and trying to outplay them post. Not the best prep for higher levels.

 

[John A]

You misundestood what i meant about different approaches with gto , for example according to gto it might be correct to check/call in one spot with A-high or bet with it assuming you changed your whole range based on this , i mean on exactly the same spot it might be correct to play the *same* card strength in a different way if you made modifications on the rest of your range.

What you understood was that gto takes different approaches with different card strengths , yes thats true and i know it , this isnt what i said on my previous post.


About the aggressive vs passive way , for example:

effective stack sizes are 100b we 3-bet x9 someone with JJ , he is a regular and we have no reads , flop is A-6-2 rainbow and he check to us , is this a typical spot where a passive player differ from an aggressive one? an aggressive player might cbet this while a passive one would try to go to showdown. Both ways might be correct according to gto assuming the aggressive player has more bluffs and value on his raising range while the passive one plays some of his value in a passive manner to protect his sdv.

Do you agree with the above?

Another situations where those 2 styles differ are of course preflop situations like 3-bet vs calling a raise , postflop with a-high , bad pairs , second overpairs and so on , you probably understand what i mean.

Some play to go to showdown and make more spectacular calls while others just bet to make things easier.

Is this what the section about passive vs aggressive players meant? do you agree with everything i said?

I think I understood your comment, and I understand GTO play very well. My point though is that I wouldn't even be discussing that in these situations because we want to play an exploitative game. That's the point of emphasis. Any discussion about range balancing to maintain GTO play against players that won't be doing the same in a proper balance is just burning money. That applies to your example as well.

Again, I'm not saying there's not value in understanding GTO play. But what I'm saying is you need to walk before you run. You're going to need how to exploit things your opponents are not doing well, and right now they are doing countless things wrong in their games. So... you want to maximize value and exploit that. Later, when you're playing against world class players, implementing more GTO play will be essential in keeping them off balance so they can not exploit your game.

 

[John A]

Interesting bvb hand, can we raise this river? Or is the chance of a flush make it too risky?

(Poker Stars $10.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, October 18, 09:51:41 ET 2014
Table Nongoma (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $9.85 USD ) - VPIP: 9, PFR: 5, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 55
Seat 2: Hero ( $36.69 USD ) - VPIP: 21, PFR: 12, 3B: 8, Ag%54 Hands: 88
Seat 4: Player4 ( $10.15 USD ) - VPIP: 12, PFR: 9, 3B: 6, AF: 1.8, Hands: 138
Seat 5: Player5 ( $10.25 USD ) - VPIP: 17, PFR: 14, 3B: 7, AF: 0.0, Hands: 36
Seat 6: Player6 ( $4.90 USD ) - VPIP: 38, PFR: 6, 3B: 25, AF: 0.0, Hands: 16
Seat 7: Player7 ( $10.00 USD ) - VPIP: 16, PFR: 8, 3B: 13, AF: 2.0, Hands: 61
Seat 8: Player8 ( $13.84 USD ) - VPIP: 13, PFR: 8, 3B: 0, AF: 3.0, Hands: 139
Seat 9: Player9 ( $4.85 USD ) - VPIP: 50, PFR: 33, 3B: 0, AF: 5.0, Hands: 18
Hero posts small blind [$0.05 USD].
Player4 posts big blind [$0.10 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Ks Jd ]
Player5 folds
Player6 folds
Player7 folds
Player8 folds
Player9 folds
Player1 folds
Hero raises [$0.25 USD]
Player4 calls [$0.20 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7s, 2s, 9h ]
Hero checks
Player4 checks
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qs ]
Hero bets [$0.28 USD]
Player4 raises [$0.70 USD]
Hero calls [$0.42 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ Th ]
Hero checks
Player4 bets [$1.60 USD]
Hero calls [$1.60 USD]
Player4 shows [9c, 9s ]
Hero shows [Ks, Jd ]
Hero wins $4.97 USD from main pot

I like the river check, but you need to be raising or shoving the river. He's almost always betting the flop with a flush draw in this situation, and there's lots of two pairs that will call.

 

[Figaroo2]

value betting and bet sizing

We don't talk much about value betting the river and how much we should bet so I welcome some feedback on a few hands

(Full Tilt) $25.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, October 15, 03:43:34 ET 2014
Table Cab (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $9.74 USD ) - VPIP: 43, PFR: 29, 3B: 17, AF: 0.0, Hands: 14
Seat 2: Player2 ( $18.26 USD ) - VPIP: 40, PFR: 20, 3B: 8, AF: 0.4, Hands: 20
Seat 3: Player3 ( $25.76 USD ) - VPIP: 16, PFR: 16, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 37
Seat 4: Player4 ($16.15 USD) - VPIP: 26, PFR: 15, 3B: 5, AF: 2.0, Hands 46
Seat 5: Player5 ( $26.85 USD ) - VPIP: 9, PFR: 6, 3B: 0, AF: 1.0, Hands: 32
Seat 6: Player6 ( $25.47 USD ) - VPIP: 16, PFR: 8, 3B: 1, AF: 0.8, Hands: 332
Seat 7: Hero ( $25.00 USD ) - VPIP: 20, PFR: 15, 3B: 0, AG%75, Hands: 46
Seat 8: Player8 ( $21.76 USD ) - VPIP: 15, PFR: 3, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 34
Seat 9: Player9 ( $25.00 USD ) - VPIP: 14, PFR: 9, 3B: 0, AF: 2.7, Hands: 330
Player3 posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
Player4 posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Jd Kd ]
Player5 folds
Player6 folds
Hero raises [$0.62 USD]
Player8 folds
Player9 folds
Player1 folds
Player2 calls [$0.62 USD]
Player3 folds
Player4 calls [$0.37 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4c, Jc, 6s ] Pot $1.96
Player4 checks
Hero bets [$1.37 USD]
Player2 calls [$1.37 USD]
Player4 folds
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8h ] Pot $4.70
Hero bets [$3.29 USD]
Player2 calls [$3.29 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ Td ] Pot $11.28
Hero bets [$5.50 USD]
Player2 calls [$5.50 USD]
Hero shows [Jd, Kd ]
Hero wins $21.17 USD from main pot
Player2 doesn't show [8c, 7c ] calling me with 3rd pair!!

 

[Figaroo2]

(Full Tilt) $25.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, October 15, 04:10:45 ET 2014
Table Cab (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $25.00 USD ) - VPIP: 3, PFR: 1, 3B: 1, AF: 0.0, Hands: 217
Seat 2: Player2 ( $17.48 USD ) - VPIP: 40, PFR: 20, 3B: 8, AF: 0.4, Hands: 20
Seat 3: Player3 ($24.65 USD) - VPIP: 33, PFR: 30, 3B: 13, AF: 1 Hands 40
Seat 4: Player4 ( $21.76 USD ) - VPIP: 26, PFR: 15, 3B: 5, AF: 2.0, Hands: 46
Seat 6: Player6 ( $24.88 USD ) - VPIP: 16, PFR: 8, 3B: 1, AG% 75, Hands: 332
Seat 7: Hero ( $36.79 USD ) - VPIP: 20, PFR: 15, 3B: 0, AG% 75, Hands: 46
Seat 9: Player9 ( $27.25 USD ) - VPIP: 14, PFR: 9, 3B: 0, AF: 2.7, Hands: 330
Player4 posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
Player6 posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Qc Ac ]
Hero raises [$0.62 USD]
Player9 folds
Player1 folds
Player2 folds
Player3 calls [$0.62 USD]
Player4 folds
Player6 folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2c, As, 5c ] Pot $1.59
Hero bets [$1.11 USD]
Player3 calls [$1.11 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5s ] Pot $3.81
Hero bets [$2.66 USD]
Player3 calls [$2.66 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ Jh ] Pot $9.13
Hero bets [$4.40 USD]
Player3 calls [$4.40 USD]
Hero shows [Qc, Ac ]
Hero wins $17.04 USD from main pot
Player3 doesn't show [Ah, 4h ]

I went for close to half pot on the river for both hands thinking they were both busted draws and they were unlikely to pay off anything bigger. I wasn't actually expecting a call on either hand so now i'm wondering just how much the weak ace would have paid.
Just looking through my hands that went to the river generally and I'm still missing massive value not betting when I should be