Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[John A]

You may be overestimating the importance of post-flop range balancing at the $.05 BB level in a site with a massive player pool.
I have no doubt that what you say is true at your usual blind level, and there is some non-zero value to post-flop balance even at this level.

Well, I've sweated plenty of sessions for people who play these limits for 13+ years online. I think I have a pretty good understanding of the player pool, and the fact you really don't need to balance your range much at these limits. I'd advocate heavily against it. So we're going to agree to disagree, and I'm sure you know much better than I here.

For the sake of argument, you are giving the villain a narrow range pre-flop. After calling a flop bet, the villain's range is almost entirely Top Pair Good Kicker or a set of tens.
All the hero has done is make a standard flop c-bet.
There are two clubs on the board. I'd guess the odds of a bet by the villain on the turn here are close to 50/50 if we check.

Lots of contradictions in your thinking here honestly. If players at 5NL are so balanced and understand your range so well, why would they think they need to bet the turn after calling a "standard c-bet"? That makes no sense. If they understand their equity vs your range, they would check for pot control nearly always, even w/ TP.

I think I understand your argument pretty well, thank you again.



Good!

You say I gave the villain free equity for no reason.
I gave him free equity to avoid building a big pot when I was probably behind.

Now, in the unlikely event that we have reached the turn after both player check the flop, I am in a much better situation:
- I know I am probably WA
- it is harder for the villain to know where they stand. So far I have 3-bet pre and checked the flop.
Am I just betting now with a medium pocket pair or KQ because they showed no strength? Slowplaying a monster? Semi-bluffing with a draw?
The villain's range is mostly QQ and JJ now if we agree for argument's sake that he has a narrow pre-flop range.
I am probably ahead, and my range here in the villain's eyes includes many hands they might beat.

Again, this makes no sense. How in your mind is this harder for your opponent to understand your range when you just gave them information? You think checking the flop is creating confusion for your opponent? Look, if a person wants to bluff this flop, their ideal spot is to bet the flop and likely barrel the turn. Both players checking the flop doesn't change anything. You're both saying, I have a hand I like, but I don't want to over invest. My whole point of what I was saying about betting the flop has to do w/ the fact you're not going to get more than 1 street of value vs. opponents who are behind in this spot unless they are bad.

The flop goes c/c... now your opponent has JJ/QQ, what hand are you now betting the turn and river that they beat in their mind? Maybe in a single raised pot what you're saying might apply more, but not in a 3-bet pot.

Maybe I should have just said one line to start. You're not getting more than one street of value when your opponent is behind, so it doesn't ****ing matter what street you bet. Maybe that would have saved us all some time.

Depends on board texture (hopefully we have avoided clubs, Queens, and Jacks), but generally yes, I am betting.
Nothing has changed since the turn, and I have no reason to believe this player is tricky. I'm probably ahead here and will get calls from weaker hands.

Well, if you're getting 2 streets of value in this spot vs. JJ/QQ in a 3-bet pot you're picking good tables. Good for you man. WP.

 

[AlexTheOwl]

Well, I've sweated plenty of sessions for people who play these limits for 13+ years online. I think I have a pretty good understanding of the player pool, and the fact you really don't need to balance your range much at these limits. I'd advocate heavily against it. So we're going to agree to disagree, and I'm sure you know much better than I here.

John, I'm sorry if I've offended you in some way.

I've been a winning recreational player for decades, but my win rates and stakes are modest. I have no doubt you are a better poker player than I am.
I didn't know that you often coached those stakes, but now that I do, I am sure that you are the person who knows better than I do here.

My questions are sincere, and when I tell you how I'm thinking I'm well aware that I could have misconceptions, which I invite you to puncture.

I am thoroughly confused by your latest response.

My understanding was that you were asserting the value of betting the flop - even if way behind most combos in the narrow range we had given to the villain for argument's sake - for the sake of balancing our lines.

Maybe I misunderstood.

I said I didn't see post-flop balance as a major reason to bet the flop if we think we are usually WB, although line balancing is not entirely without value at this stake.

Your latest response is written as though exactly the opposite was true. As though I was asserting the importance of post-flop balance, or suggesting that most players at this level have well-balanced lines post-flop.

We seem to have managed the difficult and unpleasant trick of arguing about something we both agree on, unless I am misunderstanding your most recent response entirely.

 

[AlexTheOwl]

Lots of contradictions in your thinking here honestly. If players at 5NL are so balanced and understand your range so well, why would they think they need to bet the turn after calling a "standard c-bet"? That makes no sense. If they understand their equity vs your range, they would check for pot control nearly always, even w/ TP.

In my experience it's very common for players to bet turns with only TP, even after calling a flop c-bet, especially when they see two suited cards on the board. If you honestly disagree then I defer to your experience and expertise.

Again, this makes no sense. How in your mind is this harder for your opponent to understand your range when you just gave them information? You think checking the flop is creating confusion for your opponent? Look, if a person wants to bluff this flop, their ideal spot is to bet the flop and likely barrel the turn. Both players checking the flop doesn't change anything.

If I bet the turn after the flop goes check / check, what range do you think the villain assigns to me?

The hero's pre-flop range, as the 3-better, generally ought to be wider than the villain's.
I think the villain will include 99-KK in my range, possibly AQ or AJ, possibly even KQ, with or without one or more clubs. So my actual holding is in the middle of the range the villain would assign to me. Am I way off?

This is what changes if we both check the flop:
I think they are less likely to credit me with an A then if I had bet the flop, making them more likely to call.
And I am definitely less likely to credit the villain with an A after he checked the flop, making me willing to bet.

You're both saying, I have a hand I like, but I don't want to over invest. My whole point of what I was saying about betting the flop has to do w/ the fact you're not going to get more than 1 street of value vs. opponents who are behind in this spot unless they are bad.

I agree with this. But many opponents are bad, and I am probably WA if the flop goes check / check.
So why not bet both the turn and river? I am reluctant to bet the flop for fear of being WB, but the check / check flop changes things.
I know you think the hero is actually more likely to be WA on the flop, and that would be a different case.
But for the sake of argument we were assuming that the villain has a narrow range that leaves us mostly WB on the flop.

The flop goes c/c... now your opponent has JJ/QQ, what hand are you now betting the turn and river that they beat in their mind? Maybe in a single raised pot what you're saying might apply more, but not in a 3-bet pot.

Maybe I should have just said one line to start. You're not getting more than one street of value when your opponent is behind, so it doesn't ****ing matter what street you bet. Maybe that would have saved us all some time.



Well, if you're getting 2 streets of value in this spot vs. JJ/QQ in a 3-bet pot you're picking good tables. Good for you man. WP.

I never claimed I'd usually get two streets of value, but since I'm likely WA (depending on the turn and river cards), I see no reason not to try.

I hope you are more pleasant and professional in your interactions with your students than you have been here.
But, your sarcasm and asterisks aside, I do genuinely appreciate you taking the time to discuss this hand, I apologize if I was offensive, and I have enjoyed the discussion!

 

[Alucard]

Hey john, wanted to ask this question.
I don't have the actual hand with me so I'll provide a hypothetical situation.

Hero in BTN with 98s. 6max.
MP (decent reg) opens & hero 3bets & the action folds to the V.
V calls
Flop - 106Q (Don't remember the 3rd card but it's an over as I remember)

106 are of the same suit so Hero has a straight flush draw.

I'd generally check back my flush draws trying not to blast away my equity by getting a check raise but since I had a straight flush I decided to bet.
V raises around 2.5-3x times.
Hero calls.
Turn a brick. V checks & hero checks back.
River a brick. V shoves hero folds.

My question is even in this spot should I've had checked back the flop trying to get a free card or was it the right call to bet??

 

[John A]

I never claimed I'd usually get two streets of value, but since I'm likely WA (depending on the turn and river cards), I see no reason not to try.

I hope you are more pleasant and professional in your interactions with your students than you have been here.
But, your sarcasm and asterisks aside, I do genuinely appreciate you taking the time to discuss this hand, I apologize if I was offensive, and I have enjoyed the discussion!

You know, you came in here claiming that you knew an answer in a thread dedicate to a book you say you didn't even read. You didn't say, "I know the answer here, you don't", but you essentially did. You were snarky in your posts, and I honestly thought you might be trolling. But I continued on, despite my better judgement. Now you call me unprofessional, and act like you did nothing in this interaction. You're not so innocent.

When you go into an interaction thinking you know more than the people who are offering their advice and feedback, expect these kinds of responses. It's not my job to convince you of anything. I field questions, and provide guidance. That's it.

GL buddy.

 

[John A]

Hey john, wanted to ask this question.
I don't have the actual hand with me so I'll provide a hypothetical situation.

Hero in BTN with 98s. 6max.
MP (decent reg) opens & hero 3bets & the action folds to the V.
V calls
Flop - 106Q (Don't remember the 3rd card but it's an over as I remember)

106 are of the same suit so Hero has a straight flush draw.

I'd generally check back my flush draws trying not to blast away my equity by getting a check raise but since I had a straight flush I decided to bet.
V raises around 2.5-3x times.
Hero calls.
Turn a brick. V checks & hero checks back.
River a brick. V shoves hero folds.

My question is even in this spot should I've had checked back the flop trying to get a free card or was it the right call to bet??

Like normal, let's start w/ a villain range and punch that up. Once you have that, the question should be, is it better to shove the flop so I can realize all of my equity in this spot, or is it better to call and try and hit turn or river. Hint, it's usually the first, but let's get a range first.

 

[AlexTheOwl]

John, I didn't intend to be snarky. I apologize if it came off that way. I didn't intend to troll, I intended to ask legitimate questions, and debate statements that I found unconvincing.

I appreciate you fielding those questions and participating in that debate, until things turned sour for reasons I don't understand.

I came across this thread under "New Poker Posts". I wasn't clear about what specific actions you would advocate in the hand that Alucard posted. I wanted more information, because this is a fairly common situation, I was (and still am!) unsure whether a c-bet or a check on the flop has a higher EV, and you clearly have some expertise.

You said some things that I misunderstood but ultimately agreed with, and other things that I found unconvincing.
You are certainly under no obligation to convince me.

However, I don't think it is out of line to question statements that are not in accord with my experience, even if those statements come from a better poker player than myself.

Providing a thread to discuss a book with its author is a service to the poker community. I assume that "GL Buddy" is sarcastic, but, genuinely, GL to you too.

 

[Figaroo2]

Best way to play this hand.

poker stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $19.68 (78.7 bb)
BB: $3.01 (12 bb)
UTG+2: $25.35 (101.4 bb)VPIP: 28, PFR: 14, 3B: 3, AF: 3.3, Hands: 99
MP1: $25 (100 bb)
MP2: $26.43 (105.7 bb)
MP3: $36.32 (145.3 bb)
CO: $25 (100 bb)
Hero (BTN): $26.02 (104.1 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 8

8

UTG+2 raises to $0.75, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.75, 2 folds

Flop: ($1.85) 9

2

9

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $0.89, Hero calls $0.89

Turn: ($3.63) 6

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $1.74, Hero raises to $3.48, UTG+2 calls $1.74
He is reasonably aggro I don't want to have to face a big river barrel with so little info on his range so we min raise turn to freeze the river betting and charge any draws a little bit more.

River: ($10.59) 3

(2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks

Results: $10.59 pot ($0.48 rake)
Final Board: 9

2

9

6

3

UTG+2 showed K

T

and lost (-$5.12 net)
Hero showed 8

8

and won $10.11 ($4.99 net)

Is there any other way to play this hand?
Call turn, call possible shove on all bricks hoping he doesn't have an overpair? Might we get more value calling down this reasonably loose aggro player?

 

[Alucard]

Like normal, let's start w/ a villain range and punch that up. Once you have that, the question should be, is it better to shove the flop so I can realize all of my equity in this spot, or is it better to call and try and hit turn or river. Hint, it's usually the first, but let's get a range first.

Considering the check raise on flop I guess tings that makes sense are flush draws like AQs,KQs, some sets like 10s or Queens or maybe some KJs for straights???

SO should we shove here?? I didn't quite understand your answer.
All the top pair+flush draws,sets are def gonna call here while I might fold some Straight draws but that's just it I think.

Edit - so I ran the numbers after assigning a very capped range. I'm slightly ahead. So I guess it's a shove?? But I don't have any fold equity I think.

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Board: QhTs6s
Equity Win Tie
CO 49.64% 49.51% 0.13% { QQ-88, AQs-ATs, KJs+, QJs, JTs, AQo, KQo }
BU 50.36% 50.23% 0.13% { 9s8s }

 

[John A]

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $19.68 (78.7 bb)
BB: $3.01 (12 bb)
UTG+2: $25.35 (101.4 bb)VPIP: 28, PFR: 14, 3B: 3, AF: 3.3, Hands: 99
MP1: $25 (100 bb)
MP2: $26.43 (105.7 bb)
MP3: $36.32 (145.3 bb)
CO: $25 (100 bb)
Hero (BTN): $26.02 (104.1 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 8

8

UTG+2 raises to $0.75, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.75, 2 folds

Flop: ($1.85) 9

2

9

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $0.89, Hero calls $0.89

Turn: ($3.63) 6

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $1.74, Hero raises to $3.48, UTG+2 calls $1.74
He is reasonably aggro I don't want to have to face a big river barrel with so little info on his range so we min raise turn to freeze the river betting and charge any draws a little bit more.

River: ($10.59) 3

(2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks

Results: $10.59 pot ($0.48 rake)
Final Board: 9

2

9

6

3

UTG+2 showed K

T

and lost (-$5.12 net)
Hero showed 8

8

and won $10.11 ($4.99 net)

Is there any other way to play this hand?
Call turn, call possible shove on all bricks hoping he doesn't have an overpair? Might we get more value calling down this reasonably loose aggro player?

Well, if he's reasonably aggressive, on that board texture, calling the turn and river would likely be more profitable. If he was so-so aggressive (that middle ground), I like the min raise more. But with the texture + the kind of opponent, I think the EV is higher on a call. But you know I like small turn or flop raises when you can get free turns or rivers and you're in a marginal spot. But the specifics of the situations matter.

If he shoves the turn are you calling?

 

[John A]

Considering the check raise on flop I guess tings that makes sense are flush draws like AQs,KQs, some sets like 10s or Queens or maybe some KJs for straights???

SO should we shove here?? I didn't quite understand your answer.
All the top pair+flush draws,sets are def gonna call here while I might fold some Straight draws but that's just it I think.

Edit - so I ran the numbers after assigning a very capped range. I'm slightly ahead. So I guess it's a shove?? But I don't have any fold equity I think.

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Board: QhTs6s
Equity Win Tie
CO 49.64% 49.51% 0.13% { QQ-88, AQs-ATs, KJs+, QJs, JTs, AQo, KQo }
BU 50.36% 50.23% 0.13% { 9s8s }

Well, that's not the range I would assign, but regardless, you're still going to be around 50%. The problem with calling in a spot like this is it's difficult to get paid if you do hit. If you just call here, and then a spade hits, your opponent checks, you're not getting paid very often. If a 7 hits, you probably will. But in general, once you call, you get stuck in a situation where you're hoping to hit, and hoping to get paid... and hope it cool, but...

The other obvious point is, you have the odds to shove and fully realize your equity based on the money that is already in the pot.

 

[Aces2w1n]

Good to see you guys still at it

 

[braveslice]

Hey Ace =)

 

[Alucard]

John is there some standard strategy when not to cbet considering the position,board tecture & the opponent?
I'm having some trouble when playing vs the blinds
related to when you miss the flop or perhaps a hand with very little value

 

[Alucard]

Also,

I usually take this line on a bit dangerous board cause I will usually be call a decent sizing if I checked & the V bets on the river.
But I do fold V's bluff by this so not getting value there. But then again if the V raised, I know I'm beat so easy fold. But if the V bluffs a very big size, he might make me fold better hands cause I wouldn't be calling most of the time.
So what is the profitable option???

Spoiler

partypoker - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 137.8 BB (VPIP: 18.95, PFR: 14.74, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 99)
Hero (SB): 312.6 BB
BB: 105.8 BB (VPIP: 17.77, PFR: 13.32, 3Bet Preflop: 3.99, Hands: 752)
UTG: 121.6 BB (VPIP: 29.76, PFR: 25.30, 3Bet Preflop: 15.15, Hands: 88)
MP: 26.8 BB (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 4.76, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 21)
CO: 64.4 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)

Hero posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Th Ah
fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BB calls 2 BB

Flop : (6 BB, 2 players) 2s As 4c
Hero bets 4 BB, BB calls 4 BB

Turn : (14 BB, 2 players) 7s
Hero checks, BB bets 10 BB, Hero calls 10 BB

River : (34 BB, 2 players) 9h
Hero bets 22 BB, fold

Hero wins 54.4 BB

 

[John A]

John is there some standard strategy when not to cbet considering the position,board tecture & the opponent?
I'm having some trouble when playing vs the blinds
related to when you miss the flop or perhaps a hand with very little value

Well, there's things you should understand about those textures and how they hit your opponents range vs. the hands you can turn. I did go over a lot of this in polished poker. Perhaps there's something we can go over or expand on from that content?

 

[John A]

Also,

I usually take this line on a bit dangerous board cause I will usually be call a decent sizing if I checked & the V bets on the river.
But I do fold V's bluff by this so not getting value there. But then again if the V raised, I know I'm beat so easy fold. But if the V bluffs a very big size, he might make me fold better hands cause I wouldn't be calling most of the time.
So what is the profitable option???

Spoiler

partypoker - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 137.8 BB (VPIP: 18.95, PFR: 14.74, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 99)
Hero (SB): 312.6 BB
BB: 105.8 BB (VPIP: 17.77, PFR: 13.32, 3Bet Preflop: 3.99, Hands: 752)
UTG: 121.6 BB (VPIP: 29.76, PFR: 25.30, 3Bet Preflop: 15.15, Hands: 88)
MP: 26.8 BB (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 4.76, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 21)
CO: 64.4 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)

Hero posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Th Ah
fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BB calls 2 BB

Flop : (6 BB, 2 players) 2s As 4c
Hero bets 4 BB, BB calls 4 BB

Turn : (14 BB, 2 players) 7s
Hero checks, BB bets 10 BB, Hero calls 10 BB

River : (34 BB, 2 players) 9h
Hero bets 22 BB, fold

Hero wins 54.4 BB

Well in a BvB spot I like bet flop, check turn a lot w/ TP+. Especially against regs. The reason should be pretty straight forward. But once you c/c turn, you should c/c river too. There's still a lot more bluff hands in his range here than worse value hands that he bets right? Only value hands he bets that beat you is 2 pair, and there's only a few combos of those as he probably raised a flopped 2 pair a large % of the time, and maybe if he flats AJ sometimes. Maybe you miss some value vs A8/A6, but that's not even certain. Compared to the number of complete air, and missed flush draw combos that are in his hand.

 

[Alucard]

Well, there's things you should understand about those textures and how they hit your opponents range vs. the hands you can turn. I did go over a lot of this in polished poker. Perhaps there's something we can go over or expand on from that content?

Thanks for the input. I haven't read the book entirely yet. Need to get more into reading.
Will reply on this afterwards.

BTW here are some riverplays I'm not quite certain of

Not certain I should shove in a spot like this or just go for a thin v bet. For one the BBs 3betting range is pretty wide & specially the way he played post flop very unsure of his holding here

Spoiler

partypoker - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

Hero (BTN): 200 BB
SB: 113.4 BB (VPIP: 23.34, PFR: 18.61, 3Bet Preflop: 8.00, Hands: 325)
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 24.52, PFR: 19.28, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 371)
UTG: 159.8 BB (VPIP: 22.40, PFR: 16.94, 3Bet Preflop: 1.45, Hands: 186)
MP: 159.6 BB (VPIP: 20.43, PFR: 13.44, 3Bet Preflop: 5.48, Hands: 190)
CO: 114.6 BB (VPIP: 77.78, PFR: 55.56, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 10)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 2h 2s
fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BB raises to 9 BB, Hero calls 6 BB

Flop : (18.4 BB, 2 players) 2d 6h 8d
BB bets 8.8 BB, Hero calls 8.8 BB

Turn : (36 BB, 2 players) Kc
BB checks, Hero checks

River : (36 BB, 2 players) 8s
BB checks,

V bet on river?? getting calls out of weak aces??

Spoiler

partypoker - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 59.6 BB (VPIP: 32.00, PFR: 2.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 50)
SB: 60.6 BB (VPIP: 22.73, PFR: 9.52, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 23)
BB: 50 BB (VPIP: 14.97, PFR: 4.81, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 196)
Hero (UTG): 166.6 BB
MP: 99 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 10)
CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 26.32, PFR: 15.79, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 20)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Ad Kh
Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, BTN calls 3 BB, SB calls 2.6 BB, fold

Flop : (10 BB, 3 players) 8d 9s 5d
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn : (10 BB, 3 players) As
SB checks, Hero bets 5.6 BB, BTN calls 5.6 BB, SB calls 5.6 BB

River : (26.8 BB, 3 players) 8h
SB checks,

Another gross spot. V looked very weak checking & betting small on river so went aggro. But now I have showdown value. Checking or betting for a fold??? If I'm shoving I'm targeting hands like jacks,10s,9s or some Qx combos.
I block 9s.

Spoiler

partypoker - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

Hero (BTN): 116.8 BB
SB: 201.2 BB (VPIP: 30.65, PFR: 22.58, 3Bet Preflop: 4.00, Hands: 66)
BB: 199.4 BB (VPIP: 26.87, PFR: 11.94, 3Bet Preflop: 3.70, Hands: 69)
UTG: 47 BB (VPIP: 21.84, PFR: 17.24, 3Bet Preflop: 2.78, Hands: 90)
MP: 215 BB (VPIP: 29.27, PFR: 24.39, 3Bet Preflop: 6.67, Hands: 43)
CO: 96 BB (VPIP: 23.64, PFR: 21.82, 3Bet Preflop: 15.38, Hands: 57)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 8h 9h
fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, SB raises to 10 BB, fold, Hero calls 7 BB

Flop : (21 BB, 2 players) 7c Qc Ks
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn : (21 BB, 2 players) Kc
SB bets 7.6 BB, Hero raises to 24 BB, SB calls 16.4 BB

River : (69 BB, 2 players) 8s
SB checks,

 

[John A]

BTW here are some riverplays I'm not quite certain of

Not certain I should shove in a spot like this or just go for a thin v bet. For one the BBs 3betting range is pretty wide & specially the way he played post flop very unsure of his holding here

Spoiler

partypoker - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

Hero (BTN): 200 BB
SB: 113.4 BB (VPIP: 23.34, PFR: 18.61, 3Bet Preflop: 8.00, Hands: 325)
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 24.52, PFR: 19.28, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 371)
UTG: 159.8 BB (VPIP: 22.40, PFR: 16.94, 3Bet Preflop: 1.45, Hands: 186)
MP: 159.6 BB (VPIP: 20.43, PFR: 13.44, 3Bet Preflop: 5.48, Hands: 190)
CO: 114.6 BB (VPIP: 77.78, PFR: 55.56, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 10)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 2h 2s
fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BB raises to 9 BB, Hero calls 6 BB

Flop : (18.4 BB, 2 players) 2d 6h 8d
BB bets 8.8 BB, Hero calls 8.8 BB

Turn : (36 BB, 2 players) Kc
BB checks, Hero checks

River : (36 BB, 2 players) 8s
BB checks,

Don't think you need to shove w/ this pot size and his play. It's true you're in an "all or nothing" spot, but I'd probably bet 42. Slight over bet here might get called by some small pairs, 6x, Kx.

V bet on river?? getting calls out of weak aces??

Spoiler

partypoker - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 59.6 BB (VPIP: 32.00, PFR: 2.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 50)
SB: 60.6 BB (VPIP: 22.73, PFR: 9.52, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 23)
BB: 50 BB (VPIP: 14.97, PFR: 4.81, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 196)
Hero (UTG): 166.6 BB
MP: 99 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 10)
CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 26.32, PFR: 15.79, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 20)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Ad Kh
Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, BTN calls 3 BB, SB calls 2.6 BB, fold

Flop : (10 BB, 3 players) 8d 9s 5d
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn : (10 BB, 3 players) As
SB checks, Hero bets 5.6 BB, BTN calls 5.6 BB, SB calls 5.6 BB

River : (26.8 BB, 3 players) 8h
SB checks,

Yes, always betting this river. It's an easy bet/fold spot.

Another gross spot. V looked very weak checking & betting small on river so went aggro. But now I have showdown value. Checking or betting for a fold??? If I'm shoving I'm targeting hands like jacks,10s,9s or some Qx combos.
I block 9s.

Spoiler

partypoker - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

Hero (BTN): 116.8 BB
SB: 201.2 BB (VPIP: 30.65, PFR: 22.58, 3Bet Preflop: 4.00, Hands: 66)
BB: 199.4 BB (VPIP: 26.87, PFR: 11.94, 3Bet Preflop: 3.70, Hands: 69)
UTG: 47 BB (VPIP: 21.84, PFR: 17.24, 3Bet Preflop: 2.78, Hands: 90)
MP: 215 BB (VPIP: 29.27, PFR: 24.39, 3Bet Preflop: 6.67, Hands: 43)
CO: 96 BB (VPIP: 23.64, PFR: 21.82, 3Bet Preflop: 15.38, Hands: 57)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 8h 9h
fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, SB raises to 10 BB, fold, Hero calls 7 BB

Flop : (21 BB, 2 players) 7c Qc Ks
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn : (21 BB, 2 players) Kc
SB bets 7.6 BB, Hero raises to 24 BB, SB calls 16.4 BB

River : (69 BB, 2 players) 8s
SB checks,

Not really sure what you're doing here honestly. If he called your turn raise, he's not folding this river unless he just had draws, and in that case, you're ahead now.

 

[Alucard]

John a little question.
Is set mining with pockets 2s to 10s ever profitable in a multiway 3bet pot when you are OOP in blinds. (6max)

Ex - UTG opens & BTN 3bets & you have 10s at SB.

Does the stack size come to play here?? Is it profitable to flat the 3bet & see a flop multiway in such a scenario???

 

[John A]

John a little question.
Is set mining with pockets 2s to 10s ever profitable in a multiway 3bet pot when you are OOP in blinds. (6max)

Ex - UTG opens & BTN 3bets & you have 10s at SB.

Does the stack size come to play here?? Is it profitable to flat the 3bet & see a flop multiway in such a scenario???

1) position doesn't matter when set mining
2) The example you are stating is more accurately stated as, "is it profitable to cold call a 3-bet to set mine?"

In your example, it matters what UTG's range is. You have 2 problems when you cold call here, obv your range is really face up. And second you have to hope UTG isn't 4-betting. Small pairs, 22-88, I'd advocate just folding here. 99+ it becomes opponent dependent. The looser UTG is RFI, then the wider you can cold call here.

Lastly, ideally you want as deep as stacks as possible. If you're talking about 100 bbs, then like I said, 22-88 I'd just fold. It's not profitable as a generic answer. 99-TT it depends.

 

[Alucard]

Any mistakes??

Spoiler

partypoker - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 310.6 BB (VPIP: 17.35, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 98)
SB: 681.4 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 20.59, 3Bet Preflop: 5.00, Hands: 209)
BB: 394.4 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 37.50, 3Bet Preflop: 33.33, Hands: 8)
UTG: 110.8 BB (VPIP: 18.79, PFR: 15.13, 3Bet Preflop: 8.51, Hands: 645)
MP: 178.4 BB (VPIP: 14.16, PFR: 10.62, 3Bet Preflop: 5.77, Hands: 117)
Hero (CO): 172.2 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Kc As
fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BTN raises to 8.6 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 26 BB, BTN calls 17.4 BB

Flop : (53.4 BB, 2 players) Js Ks Kd
Hero bets 26 BB, BTN calls 26 BB

Turn : (105.4 BB, 2 players) 8s
Hero bets 57 BB, BTN calls 57 BB

River : (219.4 BB, 2 players) 4d
Hero bets 63.2 BB and is all-in,

 

[John A]

Any mistakes??

Spoiler

partypoker - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 310.6 BB (VPIP: 17.35, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 98)
SB: 681.4 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 20.59, 3Bet Preflop: 5.00, Hands: 209)
BB: 394.4 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 37.50, 3Bet Preflop: 33.33, Hands: 8)
UTG: 110.8 BB (VPIP: 18.79, PFR: 15.13, 3Bet Preflop: 8.51, Hands: 645)
MP: 178.4 BB (VPIP: 14.16, PFR: 10.62, 3Bet Preflop: 5.77, Hands: 117)
Hero (CO): 172.2 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Kc As
fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BTN raises to 8.6 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 26 BB, BTN calls 17.4 BB

Flop : (53.4 BB, 2 players) Js Ks Kd
Hero bets 26 BB, BTN calls 26 BB

Turn : (105.4 BB, 2 players) 8s
Hero bets 57 BB, BTN calls 57 BB

River : (219.4 BB, 2 players) 4d
Hero bets 63.2 BB and is all-in,

Maybe slightly less on the flop and turn, but other than that it's fine. What do you think you might have done wrong? I don't mind just calling the 3-bet this deep also even though you'd be OOP. But I like 4-betting even though the SPR and stacks gets get a little weird.

 

[Alucard]

Maybe slightly less on the flop and turn, but other than that it's fine. What do you think you might have done wrong? I don't mind just calling the 3-bet this deep also even though you'd be OOP. But I like 4-betting even though the SPR and stacks gets get a little weird.

yeah I felt it may perhaps be a mistake 4betting this this deep.
The V had jacks.
When I 4bet, the nutted range wold likely continue considering V's Vpip/PFR.
So his range would be very limited.
Queens would likely call flop & fold turn while 10s would likely fold flop. I'm chopping with AK & Jacks have me beat.
So perhaps it might be better to flat the 3bet & try to play a small pot???
This is of course polarised to this hand & the V specifically.

 

[Alucard]

Fold on river? Or turn??

Spoiler

PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 216.6 BB (VPIP: 38.46, PFR: 30.77, 3Bet Preflop: 33.33, Hands: 13)
SB: 126.4 BB (VPIP: 27.34, PFR: 20.14, 3Bet Preflop: 9.62, Hands: 143)
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 17.81, PFR: 10.96, 3Bet Preflop: 7.81, Hands: 155)
UTG: 77 BB (VPIP: 23.53, PFR: 20.59, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 34)
MP: 151.6 BB (VPIP: 17.75, PFR: 14.06, 3Bet Preflop: 6.37, Hands: 770)
Hero (CO): 245.4 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 9h Jh
fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, SB raises to 9 BB, fold, Hero calls 6 BB

Flop : (19 BB, 2 players) 3h 6h 7c
SB bets 11 BB, Hero calls 11 BB

Turn : (41 BB, 2 players) 8s
SB bets 23 BB, Hero calls 23 BB

River : (87 BB, 2 players) Js
SB bets 45 BB,