Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[Sneaky Feet]

Not entirely sure what you're asking... but I'll start w/ saying, don't c-bet that flop. And if you're not sure what you're doing to a shove on the turn, then you def should not be betting. But as played you have to call of course. Maybe you meant something else.

Sorry I hit the send button a little to soon on this one. Yes I was curious about the turn shove and should I call? I thought it was pretty marginal so I was looking for feedback.

 

[rhombus]

Not entirely sure what you're asking... but I'll start w/ saying, don't c-bet that flop. And if you're not sure what you're doing to a shove on the turn, then you def should not be betting. But as played you have to call of course. Maybe you meant something else.

that board is one of the most obvious not to CBET as wet, hits alot of calling ranges (suited connectors + middling pairs) and unlikely to get a fish to fold.

In general if we had to list/bullet point key elements of CBets what would be the top 5-10 points

Ill start with. (maynot make the top 10)
Hits our Range
Misses their Range
We have good hand on draw heavy board and want to bet as so many killer cards on Turn
They have high fold to CBet

 

[rhombus]

maybe above could become regular feature, pick an area i.e. CBets, floating 3Bets IP or OOP etc and we all some up with 2 or 3 ideas/one liners and try and rank them in importance.

 

[Figaroo2]

Confused.com

Pacific, $0.15/$0.30 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $13.07 (43.6 bb) VPIP: 85, PFR: 14, 3B: 15, AF: 3.8, hands: 36
BB: $32.89 (109.6 bb)
UTG: $15.98 (53.3 bb)
Hero (MP): $31.39 (104.6 bb)
CO: $34.14 (113.8 bb)
BTN: $32.87 (109.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J

A

UTG posts BB OOP, UTG checks, Hero raises to $0.82, 2 folds, SB calls $0.67, 2 folds

Flop: ($2.24) A

4

4

(2 players)
SB bets $1.25, Hero calls $1.25

Turn: ($4.74) 5

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.37, SB calls $2.37

River: ($9.48) Q

(2 players)
SB bets $6,
Hero?

 

[rhombus]

Confused.com

Pacific, $0.15/$0.30 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $13.07 (43.6 bb) VPIP: 85, PFR: 14, 3B: 15, AF: 3.8, Hands: 36
BB: $32.89 (109.6 bb)
UTG: $15.98 (53.3 bb)
Hero (MP): $31.39 (104.6 bb)
CO: $34.14 (113.8 bb)
BTN: $32.87 (109.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J

A

UTG posts BB OOP, UTG checks, Hero raises to $0.82, 2 folds, SB calls $0.67, 2 folds

Flop: ($2.24) A

4

4

(2 players)
SB bets $1.25, Hero calls $1.25

Turn: ($4.74) 5

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.37, SB calls $2.37

River: ($9.48) Q

(2 players)
SB bets $6,
Hero?

weird lines
donk check/call donk

donk on flop usually weak Ace or flushdraw, slight chance 45s especially as so fishy stats.
Turn brick although gin if he had 45 so check to induce which you obliged
donk river hoping you had AQ. Def polarised bet of nuts(A4/45/55) or Air(missed flush draw or 67)
Id have prob checked back the turn as only card to worry about is a flush card, and called river unless he shoved

 

[John A]

I just had the worst bad beats that won't show up in a poker database. I had a total gambling nutball on my left. He only had 60 bbs left, but he was 3-betting non-stop and shoving pre-flop w/ J7s stuff like that. I finally pick up ol trusty ol' AA, and the guy times out, disconnects and gets booted from the table after I raise pre-flop. Ugh.... lol

Any ways, some thoughts on this hand from yesterday:

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/200-nlhe-6-max-river-sizing-285563/

 

[TimovieMan]

Confused.com

Preflop: Hero is MP with J

A

AF of 3.8 with an VPIP of 85?

This'll be a whiffed flush draw or worse A (or complete air) more often than a 4/A5. I'm guessing he's 3-betting AQ/QQ/55 and possibly even Ax. Call, imo. I think we're good more than the 38% of the time needed.

 

[rhombus]

AF of 3.8 with an VPIP of 85?

This'll be a whiffed flush draw or worse A (or complete air) more often than a 4/A5. I'm guessing he's 3-betting AQ/QQ/55 and possibly even Ax. Call, imo. I think we're good more than the 38% of the time needed.

Shouldnt that be 28%, odds are 38% (100/2.58)

6/(6 + 15.58) = 28%

 

[TimovieMan]

Shouldnt that be 28%, Odds are 38% (100/2.58)

6/(6 + 15.58) = 28%

Yeah, my bad. Posting at 4 am will do that to you.

 

[Figaroo2]

My hand above I put him on AQ more than anything else. I couldn't see why the Queen would make any difference otherwise.
I called because he was so aggressive generally that he could still be bluffing but I think it was a fold in hindsight the river sizing stinks of value.
As it turned out villain had QQ and backed into a set. Maybe he had been 3betting too much and just decided to flat for deception.

 

[John A]

Confused.com

Pacific, $0.15/$0.30 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $13.07 (43.6 bb) VPIP: 85, PFR: 14, 3B: 15, AF: 3.8, Hands: 36
BB: $32.89 (109.6 bb)
UTG: $15.98 (53.3 bb)
Hero (MP): $31.39 (104.6 bb)
CO: $34.14 (113.8 bb)
BTN: $32.87 (109.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J

A

UTG posts BB OOP, UTG checks, Hero raises to $0.82, 2 folds, SB calls $0.67, 2 folds

Flop: ($2.24) A

4

4

(2 players)
SB bets $1.25, Hero calls $1.25

Turn: ($4.74) 5

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.37, SB calls $2.37

River: ($9.48) Q

(2 players)
SB bets $6,
Hero?

Is your decision between snap call and shove? Is that the issue?

 

[Figaroo2]

The issue was his lines made no fing sense unless the queen helped him in which case I should have folded

 

[rhombus]

Actually thought about Bet folding river but is it better to check fold.
Thought about $1.20 into $3.80 to see if he really had a Queen.

In general with my range, AK/AQ/AJ/AT AA TT 99 and all my air is the bet fold the best line overall ??

Only 3 hands on villain 67/0 50%Ag

poker stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $5.22 (104.4 bb)
BB: $5.03 (100.6 bb)
Hero (UTG): $7.53 (150.6 bb)
MP: $5.70 (114 bb)
CO: $5.11 (102.2 bb)
BTN: $17.98 (359.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A

A

Hero raises to $0.17, 2 folds, BTN calls $0.17, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.41) 3

J

Q

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.25, BTN calls $0.25

Turn: ($0.91) Q

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.57, BTN raises to $1.45, Hero calls $0.88

River: ($3.81) K

(2 players)
Hero ???,

 

[Figaroo2]

Actually thought about Bet folding river but is it better to check fold.
Thought about $1.20 into $3.80 to see if he really had a Queen.

In general with my range, AK/AQ/AJ/AT AA TT 99 and all my air is the bet fold the best line overall ??

Only 3 hands on villain 67/0 50%Ag

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $5.22 (104.4 bb)
BB: $5.03 (100.6 bb)
Hero (UTG): $7.53 (150.6 bb)
MP: $5.70 (114 bb)
CO: $5.11 (102.2 bb)
BTN: $17.98 (359.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A

A

Hero raises to $0.17, 2 folds, BTN calls $0.17, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.41) 3

J

Q

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.25, BTN calls $0.25

Turn: ($0.91) Q

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.57, BTN raises to $1.45, Hero calls $0.88

River: ($3.81) K

(2 players)
Hero ???,

I think check fold is ok.
If you bet are you betting for value?, not really as nothing worse calls except maybe KT,
Betting as a bluff?, not really we have decent showdown value.
The K on the end doesn't help either as most players will have some AQ KQ JQ KJ in their flatting range. That is too many combos as opposed to the hands that we can beat, I can only see KdTd as the only raising hand that we still beat.

 

[Figaroo2]

Can/should we fold this hand on the evidence of the river bet?

Pacific, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $21.92 (109.6 bb)
BB: $22.87 (114.4 bb) - VPIP: 17, PFR: 12, 3B: 6, AF: 2.7, Hands: 378
Hero (UTG+1): $20 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $13.29 (66.5 bb)
MP1: $16.93 (84.7 bb)
MP2: $5.78 (28.9 bb)
MP3: $19.64 (98.2 bb)
CO: $18.45 (92.3 bb)
BTN: $20.78 (103.9 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q

Q

Hero raises to $0.60, 7 folds, BB raises to $2, Hero calls $1.40

Flop: ($4.10) 5

4

5

(2 players)
BB bets $2.05, Hero calls $2.05

Turn: ($8.20) 6

(2 players)
BB bets $4.10, Hero calls $4.10

River: ($16.40) J

(2 players)
BB bets $14.72,
Hero?

Villain is a decent reg, he is only 3betting out of the BB 3.6% and against my range UTG I can only see us up against AA KK AK JJ here
We lose to AA 6combos KK 6combos JJ 3 combos. Beat AK 16 combos
My equity Calc shows we have 51% here
So do we just call this off now we have to call $11.82 to win just over $31?

We clearly have enough equity to warrant calling on the pot odds but is he ever really doing this with AK at this point knowing I've called twice?
How much should we factor in his high wtsd and general river aggression?

 

[John A]

Actually thought about Bet folding river but is it better to check fold.
Thought about $1.20 into $3.80 to see if he really had a Queen.

In general with my range, AK/AQ/AJ/AT AA TT 99 and all my air is the bet fold the best line overall ??

Only 3 hands on villain 67/0 50%Ag

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $5.22 (104.4 bb)
BB: $5.03 (100.6 bb)
Hero (UTG): $7.53 (150.6 bb)
MP: $5.70 (114 bb)
CO: $5.11 (102.2 bb)
BTN: $17.98 (359.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A

A

Hero raises to $0.17, 2 folds, BTN calls $0.17, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.41) 3

J

Q

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.25, BTN calls $0.25

Turn: ($0.91) Q

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.57, BTN raises to $1.45, Hero calls $0.88

River: ($3.81) K

(2 players)
Hero ???,

It's only 3 hands, but this guy is likely a fish, and maybe an aggro and lucky one w/ his stack. I don't think I'd be c/fing. I'd consider bet/folding or check/calling depending on sizing. This guy could very possibly be jacking around or think Jx raise on the turn is for value.

 

[John A]

Pacific, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $21.92 (109.6 bb)
BB: $22.87 (114.4 bb) - VPIP: 17, PFR: 12, 3B: 6, AF: 2.7, Hands: 378
Hero (UTG+1): $20 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $13.29 (66.5 bb)
MP1: $16.93 (84.7 bb)
MP2: $5.78 (28.9 bb)
MP3: $19.64 (98.2 bb)
CO: $18.45 (92.3 bb)
BTN: $20.78 (103.9 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q

Q

Hero raises to $0.60, 7 folds, BB raises to $2, Hero calls $1.40

Flop: ($4.10) 5

4

5

(2 players)
BB bets $2.05, Hero calls $2.05

Turn: ($8.20) 6

(2 players)
BB bets $4.10, Hero calls $4.10

River: ($16.40) J

(2 players)
BB bets $14.72,
Hero?

Villain is a decent reg, he is only 3betting out of the BB 3.6% and against my range UTG I can only see us up against AA KK AK JJ here
We lose to AA 6combos KK 6combos JJ 3 combos. Beat AK 16 combos
My equity Calc shows we have 51% here
So do we just call this off now we have to call $11.82 to win just over $31?

We clearly have enough equity to warrant calling on the pot odds but is he ever really doing this with AK at this point knowing I've called twice?
How much should we factor in his high wtsd and general river aggression?

No. But I'm glad to see you're putting this into practice.

Do you think a nit like this is going to 3 barrel AK 100% of the time? No, probably less than 20%, so you adjust your combos accordingly.

15 combos you lose to.
4 you win against (let's give him one extra bluff).
19 Total combos

79% you lose to, 21% you win. So you have roughly 4:1 to call profitably, and you're only getting ~ 2.1:1, so it's a fold, unless you can find more bluffs, or think we can add a worse value hand like TT.

 

[rhombus]

I think check fold is ok.
If you bet are you betting for value?, not really as nothing worse calls except maybe KT,
Betting as a bluff?, not really we have decent showdown value.
The K on the end doesn't help either as most players will have some AQ KQ JQ KJ in their flatting range. That is too many combos as opposed to the hands that we can beat, I can only see KdTd as the only raising hand that we still beat.

It's only 3 hands, but this guy is likely a fish, and maybe an aggro and lucky one w/ his stack. I don't think I'd be c/fing. I'd consider bet/folding or check/calling depending on sizing. This guy could very possibly be jacking around or think Jx raise on the turn is for value.

I did check/Fold to 1/2 Pot Bet on River as I couldn't think of anything villain would bluff with

 

[jsh169]

weird lines
donk check/call donk

donk on flop usually weak Ace or flushdraw, slight chance 45s especially as so fishy stats.
Turn brick although gin if he had 45 so check to induce which you obliged
donk river hoping you had AQ. Def polarised bet of nuts(A4/45/55) or Air(missed flush draw or 67)
Id have prob checked back the turn as only card to worry about is a flush card, and called river unless he shoved

I'm never checking this vs an 85vpip on the turn, he has every gutshot and every ax that is worse, and most flush draws, missing way to much value by checking the turn. Yes occasionally he can have a 4, but with this line I don't see it, tbh looks like an Ax trying to get to sd, yes some of the time he could of hit a better 2p with the turn or river, but that's poker.

Rhombus your had is definitely a fold on the river although it sucks, one of the bigger hands you get value from is jacks, and this is even going to slow him down with a hand such as tens, unless you have a really spazzy opponent.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Good morning gentlemen. I have a few hands that I'd like some feed back on regarding how to extract more value. I feel that I'm leaving some on the table although a couple of these handsare marginal in the first place.

1. Paired boards always leave me a little queezy...

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

BB ($5)
UTG ($6.89)
Hero (MP) ($11.02)
CO ($8.17)
Button ($7.56)
SB ($4.24)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A

, K

UTG raises to $0.15, Hero raises to $0.45, 4 folds, UTG calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.97) 8

, Q

, 7

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.97) 7

(2 players)
UTG bets $0.95, Hero calls $0.95

River: ($2.87) 10

(2 players)
UTG bets $1.35

Total pot: $2.87

2. Aces and Jacks are definitely in villains range so?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

UTG ($4.76)
MP ($10.85)
CO ($5.51)
Hero (Button) ($11.85)
SB ($5)
BB ($5)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9

, 8

2 folds, CO raises to $0.10, Hero calls $0.10, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.27) 10

, K

, Q

(2 players)
CO checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.27) 6

(2 players)
CO bets $0.13, Hero calls $0.13

River: ($0.53) 7

(2 players)
CO bets $0.25

Total pot: $0.53

3. Paired board again and only a mid flush...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com/

SB ($5.02)
BB ($5.79)
Hero (UTG) ($17.99)
MP ($9.83)
Button ($5)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8

, 9

Hero raises to $0.15, MP raises to $0.45, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.97) 5

, 5

, 2

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $0.50, Hero calls $0.50

Turn: ($1.97) 10

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $1.35, Hero raises to $3.05, MP calls $1.70

River: ($8.07) 9

(2 players)

Total pot: $8.07

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Actually thought about Bet folding river but is it better to check fold.
Thought about $1.20 into $3.80 to see if he really had a Queen.

In general with my range, AK/AQ/AJ/AT AA TT 99 and all my air is the bet fold the best line overall ??

Only 3 hands on villain 67/0 50%Ag

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $5.22 (104.4 bb)
BB: $5.03 (100.6 bb)
Hero (UTG): $7.53 (150.6 bb)
MP: $5.70 (114 bb)
CO: $5.11 (102.2 bb)
BTN: $17.98 (359.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A

A

Hero raises to $0.17, 2 folds, BTN calls $0.17, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.41) 3

J

Q

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.25, BTN calls $0.25

Turn: ($0.91) Q

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.57, BTN raises to $1.45, Hero calls $0.88

River: ($3.81) K

(2 players)
Hero ???,

I'm check/calling the turn and check/call/fold the river. Too many hands beat us with this run out. I'm leaning more to folding the river here actually. There are better spots to be had.

 

[John A]

I did check/Fold to 1/2 Pot Bet on River as I couldn't think of anything villain would bluff with

I probably would have called. I agree it doesn't make a ton of sense for people who understand poker, but don't project your understanding of poker onto likely button clickers. I think getting 3:1 on the end you can make that call against someone like this unless you're seeing that they are really passive - which you don't quite know yet.

 

[John A]

I won't be at the sweat today guys, but I hope you still meet up. I have an appointment to get my kids passports today at 1.

 

[rhombus]

I probably would have called. I agree it doesn't make a ton of sense for people who understand poker, but don't project your understanding of poker onto likely button clickers. I think getting 3:1 on the end you can make that call against someone like this unless you're seeing that they are really passive - which you don't quite know yet.

couple of good points,
Dont assume they think - especialy when you sometimes what they actually have
Didnt have enough info and info i had he wasnt passive - so yup hindsight call maybe better EV

 

[fletchdad]

Sorry, missed this. When you download there's a kindle version that will work with it. Sp there's a PDF and kindle version.

Hey John, I know you are getting stuff done today, so no hurry. Getting passports for the kids, I read. Enjoy the trip, wherever you are going.

I will look at trying to take part in a sweat. I play .2nl, so I hope that is something people ITT are interested in, but time is often a factor with me, so no idea if and when I can take part. I need to find more info i.e. when you guys do this (like is it a set time always, or variable?) and if one needs to request a sweat or is it a rotating list and so on.

Question 2: I already downloaded Polished Poker 1, and when I try to DL the kindle version, it just tells me that I already downloaded the book. Any way around this? I have a few email accounts, should I just register with a new one?

Thanks.