Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[vinylspiros]

Well tbf I play on Bovada as well, and Zone, so no knowledge of opp's.

Also, this is just my perception, and from my own past experience, but I think where more people struggle with 3bets is when they get called when they aren't at the top of their range or don't smash the flop. BTN opens, and they 3bet A5o in the BB, and the BTN flats. Flop comes JT4tt, and hero goes, "great, NOW wtf do I do?!"

People's 3bet "skills" are way ahead of their postflop abilities, and it gets them into trouble.

Yea, i agree. And most of the time we/they get into trouble by making a 3bet, missing, and then barreling relentlessly and taking things too far.

If an ace comes up, u fire the flop since u have 3bet pre and he flats and the board is too dry,, you might have to fire one more barrel in my opinion to see if he flatted to keep you honest.(with a small pp or air)

The thing is alot of people convince themselves that he is check calling because he is chasing the flush or the open ender or has middle pair or something like that when IMO we should be barreling with outs. I dont think its productive to fire that turn barrel when you are not drawing to anything in general. and then when the flush misses to shove river.

I might be off here but ive noticed lately that ABC works very well in the micros and that 3 betting Quasi ranges requires caution??? (flatting more optimal in micros?)))??

 

[John A]

Is there any chance you can talk about how to apply some of this stuff against unknowns? I pretty much just play zone and a few MTT's on Bovada so I'm never really playing against people I have stats on which makes a lot of what you are saying a bit difficult for me to figure out how to apply to my game.

What stuff specifically are you referring to? If you mean quasi 3-betting ranges, you mainly need reads in order to apply them properly. I played a little bit of zone when testing the hand converter. I didn't play much, but enough to recognize that a lot of people were looking to min-raise to take down the blinds cheap (get out all the auto folders). So in cases like that, you should be 3-betting with a lot of the quasi range in position (8 - 9 x the BB). I had a ton of people either calling or c/fing the flop. It was free money. Out of position, you can make better determinations on that depending on stack sizes.

 

[John A]

Well, if i have understood correctly Quasi-3 betting ranges are hands that we would usually call and sometimes 3bet if we think villain is opening super wide and we are in position or like you said we want to ISO fish and outplay him post or flop better cause we are ahead of his range,right?

Problem is i dont like 3 betting with Quasi hands in general in the micros.(cause i play ZOOM and i have found it to be burning money unless i hit cause people are player a bit tighter than usual)

I believe that it can be profitable of course but alot of the time they will not fold to 3bet(cause its the micros) and if they hit any piece of that board they will check call all the way to the river. I'm not saying that it is not and has not been very profitable in the past but since i have started playing alot of zoom lately, i believe that flatting and then check calling flop and then 3betting turn is more profitable.(assuming i connect)

Another Question i had is , im not too sure as to how to get HM2 to bring up the exact stats you requested us to look at. Such as flat and then see how it went when it was 3bet.

Will look into that though.

Yes, look into this because it's the best way to learn about your game. Maybe someone can build the filters and post them for download. I'll do at least one later, but you guys should make an effort to learn to build these and look at them. It's going to help you understand your game a lot. You're only going to get out of HM2 what you put into it (or PT4 if you're one of those people ). lol

 

[vinylspiros]

Yes, look into this because it's the best way to learn about your game. Maybe someone can build the filters and post them for download. I'll do at least one later, but you guys should make an effort to learn to build these and look at them. It's going to help you understand your game a lot. You're only going to get out of HM2 what you put into it (or PT4 if you're one of those people ). lol

Roger that. will deffo look into that. real quick question. someone whos running 33/27 10% 3bet / 50% fold to 3bet . smallish sample. raises from cutoff . we 3 bet him big from BT with a KJs. ( a quasi 3bet range)

flop comes A52 rainbow . He makes an almost min raise(donks in). what do we do? john>? Like what do we do by default in these situations?

 

[John A]

Roger that. will deffo look into that. real quick question. someone whos running 33/27 10% 3bet / 50% fold to 3bet . smallish sample. raises from cutoff . we 3 bet him big from BT with a KJs. ( a quasi 3bet range)

flop comes A52 rainbow . He makes an almost min raise(donks in). what do we do? john>? Like what do we do by default in these situations?

Do we have any backdoor flush draws besides backdoor straight draw? In general, I'd treat donking like a check. If you were planning to c-bet the flop, then you should raise and try and take it down. But this is a general statement using a general example.

Even 2/3rd+ pot sized donk bets come in two types of players. The ones that want to bet their middle, bottom pair, or air to try and take a pot down because they aren't sure how to play it postflop, or don't really have a plan. And then the ones that are betting top pair plus and just bet when they have a hand. Against players that you don't have info on, you have to sort those out pretty quick, but in general at micro and small stakes you're going to find a higher percentage of the first example rather than the later.

The most common example of donking that can be stolen is when you raise from the CO or btn, and a blind (especially the BB) flats and they donk into you. There are a ton of flop textures you can raise and re-steal. I wouldn't advise floating these kinds of donk bets because a lot of times you look at a second barrel without knowing where you are against an opponent who may not be able to fold anymore but will give up when the pot is smaller.

 

[vinylspiros]

Do we have any backdoor flush draws besides backdoor straight draw? In general, I'd treat donking like a check. If you were planning to c-bet the flop, then you should raise and try and take it down. But this is a general statement using a general example.

Even 2/3rd+ pot sized donk bets come in two types of players. The ones that want to bet their middle, bottom pair, or air to try and take a pot down because they aren't sure how to play it postflop, or don't really have a plan. And then the ones that are betting top pair plus and just bet when they have a hand. Against players that you don't have info on, you have to sort those out pretty quick, but in general at micro and small stakes you're going to find a higher percentage of the first example rather than the later.

The most common example of donking that can be stolen is when you raise from the CO or btn, and a blind (especially the BB) flats and they donk into you. There are a ton of flop textures you can raise and re-steal. I wouldn't advise floating these kinds of donk bets because a lot of times you look at a second barrel without knowing where you are against an opponent who may not be able to fold anymore but will give up when the pot is smaller.

So to get this right, we just 3bet the amount we were going to cbet in the first place? (or alittle bit higher due to the fact that he donked.) (yes lets assume we have a backdoor flush draw )

and to make it more complicated ,lets say he flats our 3bet on the flop and we dont get any cards to improve on the turn such as that backdoor flush draw or a broadway to help us get a straight and then he donks again(smallish) . I think this is where we let it go right?

Or lets say he flats (flop 3bet after donking) and then checks(turn) and we run up dry . Do we want to continue the story on the turn assuming he flatted 3bet on flop and turn is another blank?

I know this is a general scenario but alot of the times this stuff happens and i personally just chose to let it go.''

Was this understandable?

 

[Matt Vaughan]

So to get this right, we just 3bet the amount we were going to cbet in the first place? (or alittle bit higher due to the fact that he donked.) (yes lets assume we have a backdoor flush draw )

and to make it more complicated ,lets say he flats our 3bet on the flop and we dont get any cards to improve on the turn such as that backdoor flush draw or a broadway to help us get a straight and then he donks again(smallish) . I think this is where we let it go right?

Or lets say he flats (flop 3bet after donking) and then checks(turn) and we run up dry . Do we want to continue the story on the turn assuming he flatted 3bet on flop and turn is another blank?

I know this is a general scenario but alot of the times this stuff happens and i personally just chose to let it go.''

Was this understandable?

When we raise a donk bet on the flop, it is not a 3bet, but a 2bet. The reason why the second raise preflop is a 3bet is because the big blind technically counts as the first bet. Blind = 1bet, open-raise = 2bet, re-raise = 3bet, and so on. On the flop, the pot is unopened, so a lead or a normal cbet is the 1bet, whereas a raise would just be a 2bet.

 

[vinylspiros]

When we raise a donk bet on the flop, it is not a 3bet, but a 2bet. The reason why the second raise preflop is a 3bet is because the big blind technically counts as the first bet. Blind = 1bet, open-raise = 2bet, re-raise = 3bet, and so on. On the flop, the pot is unopened, so a lead or a normal cbet is the 1bet, whereas a raise would just be a 2bet.

First of all.thank you for the reply. Second of all, ive never heard of a 2bet in my life man. either that be watching it on youtube being narrated by the guy that says whats happening on the FT of the sunday million or even on high stakes poker back in the day.

the way i thought it was is : if someone raised and then someone reraised him, it is considered to be a 3bet.Either that be pre or on the flop or turn.

Ive never heard of a 2bet. Maybe technically its a 2bet but its called a 3bet.

Im not 100% sure but u get my drift right?

 

[redwards92]

First of all.thank you for the reply. Second of all, ive never heard of a 2bet in my life man. either that be watching it on youtube being narrated by the guy that says whats happening on the FT of the sunday million or even on high stakes poker back in the day.

the way i thought it was is : if someone raised and then someone reraised him, it is considered to be a 3bet.Either that be pre or on the flop or turn.

Ive never heard of a 2bet. Maybe technically its a 2bet but its called a 3bet.

Im not 100% sure but u get my drift right?

Actually it would technically be a 2bet but you don't really hear it referred to as that as it is often just referred to as a raise. After the flop there would have to be a second raise for it to be considered a 3bet. (b/r/r= 3bet b/r =2bet)

 

[A9ofHearts]

What stuff specifically are you referring to? If you mean quasi 3-betting ranges, you mainly need reads in order to apply them properly. I played a little bit of zone when testing the hand converter. I didn't play much, but enough to recognize that a lot of people were looking to min-raise to take down the blinds cheap (get out all the auto folders). So in cases like that, you should be 3-betting with a lot of the quasi range in position (8 - 9 x the BB). I had a ton of people either calling or c/fing the flop. It was free money. Out of position, you can make better determinations on that depending on stack sizes.

Basically what I'm having problems with is, how do I properly apply the principles you have been teaching when I don't have any idea what the villains range is?
I have been play a lot of $25NL zone and a lot of the play is pretty outrageous.
Just recently I had one person 3 bet me pre with 73o in MP after I opened UTG and one person had called. Someone else 3 bet me from the BB with 10 8o after I opened from the SB with 99 and proceeded to bluff off their entire stack when I hit my set. These are just a couple examples, and while play like this is immensely profitable it makes putting people on ranges really frustrating. The only time I feel like I can realistically put someone on a decently accurate range of hands is when they have something like 400 BB and I assume they are decently good.
So pretty much I have just resorted to opening less hands for a larger amount and giving up when I don't hit the flop. I want to grow in my poker ability, but because of the way people play I don't know how to accurately range people because I find I'm incredibly inaccurate.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

vinyl you should delve into PT or HEM more

 

[redcross]

Why did I not learn all this junk before I lost all my money?

 

[vinylspiros]

vinyl you should delve into PT or HEM more

Most definitely . Im going to spend today doing just that. Gonna open everything . And read the manual.

 

[John A]

So to get this right, we just 3bet the amount we were going to cbet in the first place? (or alittle bit higher due to the fact that he donked.) (yes lets assume we have a backdoor flush draw )

and to make it more complicated ,lets say he flats our 3bet on the flop and we dont get any cards to improve on the turn such as that backdoor flush draw or a broadway to help us get a straight and then he donks again(smallish) . I think this is where we let it go right?

Or lets say he flats (flop 3bet after donking) and then checks(turn) and we run up dry . Do we want to continue the story on the turn assuming he flatted 3bet on flop and turn is another blank?

I know this is a general scenario but alot of the times this stuff happens and i personally just chose to let it go.''

Was this understandable?

Basically, if you were going to c-bet that board, then treat the donk min bet like a check. Raise about what you were going to c-bet (sometimes a little more).

At your stakes, if your raise on the flop gets called, then yes, you should shut down unless you pick up a really good card to 2 barrel or you have some read on your opponent. Even if you pick up a good card, you should probably shut down unless you have better info like your opponent is a look up artist. If he donks again on the turn and you don't pick up any good cards, then you can let it go.

 

[vinylspiros]

Basically, if you were going to c-bet that board, then treat the donk min bet like a check. Raise about what you were going to c-bet (sometimes a little more).

At your stakes, if your raise on the flop gets called, then yes, you should shut down unless you pick up a really good card to 2 barrel or you have some read on your opponent. Even if you pick up a good card, you should probably shut down unless you have better info like your opponent is a look up artist. If he donks again on the turn and you don't pick up any good cards, then you can let it go.

Roger that. Makes total sense. cause i don't want to be inflating the pot again on the turn when i have no clue where he is at.(esp with a draaw)

Generally speaking, I know donking is considered to be bad but i have posted in the past(and took alot of heat for it) that donking has its merit's . And sometimes when you have a weaker hand and you donk because your hand is probably ahead but is extremely volatile, it might be worth it.

Anyways... thanks again for advice.

 

[A9ofHearts]

Roger that. Makes total sense. cause i don't want to be inflating the pot again on the turn when i have no clue where he is at.(esp with a draaw)

Generally speaking, I know donking is considered to be bad but i have posted in the past(and took alot of heat for it) that donking has its merit's . And sometimes when you have a weaker hand and you donk because your hand is probably ahead but is extremely volatile, it might be worth it.

Anyways... thanks again for advice.

Could you link me to those threads? That is something I have been thinking about lately and I would like to read peoples thoughts on it.

 

[vinylspiros]

Could you link me to those threads? That is something I have been thinking about lately and I would like to read peoples thoughts on it.

I'll look for them yea. But dont think im advertising donking. It's just some thoughts that i thought out loud to see if anyone would agree or disagree. EVERYONE disagreed and they were right. Donking in general sucks most of the time.

 

[A9ofHearts]

I'll look for them yea. But dont think im advertising donking. It's just some thoughts that i thought out loud to see if anyone would agree or disagree. EVERYONE disagreed and they were right. Donking in general sucks most of the time.

Ok. I would still like to read them if you could find them for me.

 

[John A]

Roger that. Makes total sense. cause i don't want to be inflating the pot again on the turn when i have no clue where he is at.(esp with a draaw)

Generally speaking, I know donking is considered to be bad but i have posted in the past(and took alot of heat for it) that donking has its merit's . And sometimes when you have a weaker hand and you donk because your hand is probably ahead but is extremely volatile, it might be worth it.

Anyways... thanks again for advice.

If you read polished poker, I speak about donking as a profitable option against certain types of opponents. In general, people don't react to it well. At the same time, I'm trying to point out how to react to it properly. If you think about the reasons why you donk into someone at your stakes, it's the same reasons they are vulnerable so you should look to exploit it. The reason you almost never donk at high stakes is because people will exploit it. Of course there's a lot of leveling here and against overly aggro opponents it can be very profitable to donk w/ 2 pair+. But it's not something you really need to consider too much at micros.

 

[John A]

Ok, guys you need to look at those 3-bet and flatting ranges. I'm going to include some 3-ball calling ranges when you're facing more aggressive 3-bettors so you can get an idea of equity vs their ranges. This is versus a fairly polarized 3-betting range.

8.7% 3-bettor
AQs 55% AQo 52.7% KQs 42.2% KQo 38.8% QJs 39.2%
AJs 47.9% AJo 45% KJs 40.3% KJo 36.9% JTs 40.4%
ATs 44.8% ATo 41.8% KTs 41.3%
A9s 43.6% A9o 37.2% K9s 39.6%
A8s 41%
A5s 39.4%

TT 55.2%
99 51.9%
88 48.7%
77 47.3%
66 47%
55 46.2%
22 44.1%


16% 3-bettor
AQs 59.5% AQo 57.3% KQs 48.8% KQo 46% QJs 42.3%
AJs 55.8% AJo 53.3% KJs 45.2% KJo 42.2% JTs 42%
ATs 51.5% ATo 48.8% KTs 42.7% KTo 39.5% T9s 40%
A9s 48.3% A9o 45.3% K9s 41.3% 98s 36.4%
A8s 46.4% A8o 43.4% QJo 39%
A5s 44.3% A2o 40% JTo 38.6%
A2s 43.4%

TT 59.7%
99 54.9%
88 50.1%
77 47.4%
66 46.8%
55 46.2%
22 44.2%

This should give you some kind of baseline on what kinds of hands you should re-defend and flat with. We'll get more into 4-betting ranges in the next chapter. But go over the chart and make sure you have an understanding of the top defending ranges, and the ones that won't do well. Flopability is going to play a roll in some of these hands as well.

 

[sidgucci]

John -- just got back from Harrah's Cherokee and will run my 3Bet Quasi Range filter report today and share my results. I quickly glanced at the responses from other players and I will just say that the key is to:

1. Target:
Identify the ideal villian to use the 3Bet Quasi Range (villian opening PFR > 17% and Folds to 3Bet < 50% but has a high fold to flop Cbet)
2. Position:
I'm using the 3Bet Quasi Range from either the cut-off or button position
3. vs Weak Players:
Great opportunity to play additional hands in position vs the limpers with AGG < 30%

When I think of 3Bet Quasi Range, I'm just focused on identifying the opponents at the table that won't fold to 3Bets, they play a lot of hands, but give up on flop continuation bets.

 

[vinylspiros]

Ok, guys you need to look at those 3-bet and flatting ranges. I'm going to include some 3-ball calling ranges when you're facing more aggressive 3-bettors so you can get an idea of equity vs their ranges. This is versus a fairly polarized 3-betting range.

8.7% 3-bettor
AQs 55% AQo 52.7% KQs 42.2% KQo 38.8% QJs 39.2%
AJs 47.9% AJo 45% KJs 40.3% KJo 36.9% JTs 40.4%
ATs 44.8% ATo 41.8% KTs 41.3%
A9s 43.6% A9o 37.2% K9s 39.6%
A8s 41%
A5s 39.4%

TT 55.2%
99 51.9%
88 48.7%
77 47.3%
66 47%
55 46.2%
22 44.1%


16% 3-bettor
AQs 59.5% AQo 57.3% KQs 48.8% KQo 46% QJs 42.3%
AJs 55.8% AJo 53.3% KJs 45.2% KJo 42.2% JTs 42%
ATs 51.5% ATo 48.8% KTs 42.7% KTo 39.5% T9s 40%
A9s 48.3% A9o 45.3% K9s 41.3% 98s 36.4%
A8s 46.4% A8o 43.4% QJo 39%
A5s 44.3% A2o 40% JTo 38.6%
A2s 43.4%

TT 59.7%
99 54.9%
88 50.1%
77 47.4%
66 46.8%
55 46.2%
22 44.2%

This should give you some kind of baseline on what kinds of hands you should re-defend and flat with. We'll get more into 4-betting ranges in the next chapter. But go over the chart and make sure you have an understanding of the top defending ranges, and the ones that won't do well. Flopability is going to play a roll in some of these hands as well.

So basiclly these are hands that we can call 3bets with OOP depending on villains 3bettting stat, correct? And it gives us our equity against their general range right?

John, do you have theese numbers on the top of your head during sessions? And isnt it kinda hard to always look at villains stats and come to these conclusions when multitabling?

 

[sidgucci]

Cold Calling the following hands at .05/.10:

AQo/AQs (-$26.87 / -597.11 bb/100) (45 hands)
AJo/AJs ($22.11 / 394.82 bb/100) (56 hands)
ATo/ATs ($8.94 / 146.56 bb/100) (61 hands)
KQo/KQs ($1.12 / 16.97 bb/100) (66 hands)
KJo/KJs (-14.11 / -306.74 bb/100) (46 hands)
TOTAL COMBINED: -$32.15 / - 8.81 bb/100 (274 hands)

3-bet with the same range at .05/.10:

AQo/AQs ($32.82 / 587.07 bb/100) (56 hands)
AJo/AJs ($5.41 / 174.52 bb/100) (31 hands)
ATo/ATs ($3.04 / 108.57 bb/100) (28 hands)
KQo/KQs ($9.93 / 342.41 bb/100) (29 hands)
KJo/KJs ($2.09 / 130.63 bb/100) (16 hands)
TOTAL COMBINED: $53.29 / 333.06 bb/100 (160 hands)

In addition, I ran a report where I could call call and/or 3Bet with same hand range and elected to FOLD 115 times. Of those 115 opportunities, (78) were hands dealt when I was in the blinds.

Played $1/$2 at Harrah's Cherrokee and made of profit of $700. Anticipating good things to come from your training and software products.

 

[sidgucci]

3Bet Quasi Range Filter Results (.05/.10):

Total Hands: 120
Net Won: $9.43
bb/100: 78.58

When I add the additional 3-Bet Quasi Range vs weak players (limpers) to include A2so+; K6so+; K9so+; Q6so+; Q9so+; 54s - QJs:

Total Hands: 227
Net Won: $7.06
bb/100: 31.10

 

[John A]

So basiclly these are hands that we can call 3bets with OOP depending on villains 3bettting stat, correct? And it gives us our equity against their general range right?

John, do you have theese numbers on the top of your head during sessions? And isnt it kinda hard to always look at villains stats and come to these conclusions when multitabling?

No, not all of them. I'm just showing you the ~ showdown equity of some of these hands versus a normal polarized range of a regular. You can cut a lot of these hands out depending on stack size and position, but it should give you something to work with.