Live Grind: How to Not Fall Asleep at the Table

[Matt Vaughan]

Not a great session, not terrible. I played pretty well overall, making one misstep that cost me $50. For the rest I played fine and frankly ran a bit bad. Lost a stack in a limped pot where I spiked trips with a king kicker on the flop when I was in the BB, a short stack spiked the flopped FH, and someone who had me covered had a FD that came in on the river (we were all in on the turn).

Spot where I made a mis-step would have been a b/f on the river on the internet, x/f live because of a read I had on him (with his body language and speech after the turn I was pretty sure he had out-flopped my pair of aces with a set or flush, and additionally my hand was face-up, but I called anyway to his flopped flush ).

Trusting my reads is tough to do, because obviously sometimes they are still wrong... Just going with my gut can be hard to do, and I think that sometimes in really tough spots I err on the side of calling to see what my opponent has. Perhaps not such a good thing

Hoping to get back to the casino tonight and swim amongst the fishes there - I checked Bravo (an App that updates # of tables running and waiting lists live) and the place is already pretty crowded at 5pm, so I may try to run out the door soon!

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Pretty gross session. -2.2 BIs. For the most part I just ran like complete trash preflop - no hands worth raising - which isn't that bad since I can just fold. But then I also had a number of hands where I'd open, get 4 callers, whiff the flop, and have to x/f. There was another spot where I rivered the nuts in a hand where there had been very little post-flop action, and I had to split with someone else who had hit the same hand. There was this one somewhat weird spot too:

I'm dealt a pair of red jacks UTG and raise it to $10. I get 3 callers, and we go to a flop where I'm first to act.

(Pot: $43)
Flop: 932r

Basically the best flop in the world for my hand, and I cbet $25. I'm quickly called by UTG+1, and the other 2 fold. UTG+1 has me easily covered.

(Pot:$93)
Turn: T (second club on board)

Not really a scare card for me or for villain, so I bet again, $45 this time. Villain doesn't take long to say "all in." I've got $120 in front of me, and there's now $223 in the pot, with one card to come. I didn't have any specific read on this player with regards to how he played against me, since I was involved in so few hands. He didn't seem to be a great player or a terrible one. Didn't seem hyper-aggressive either.

$120 to call -> Hero?

 

[duggs]

whats the flop?

 

[Ducky7]

Probably a fold imo, with it being such a dry flop he is only going to continue with hands like 9T, sets and TT (after shoving this turn these are what im putting him on) there is no way he can know this is such a dry broad its likely you missed and floated to do this, so i think its a fold

 

[Cafeman]

I agree with Ducky.

duggs: Flop: 932r

 

[Matt Vaughan]

whats the flop?

Lol umm??

Yeah in retrospect it's a sigh-fold. Kinda got into a bit of the big-pot "haze" and convinced myself he could be over-valuing a Tx hand that floated (he's obv not floating a lot of Tx hands).

Yeah so kind of a gross spot. It's def one of those instances where it's really tough for me to make folds when half of my stack is already in the middle and I have an overpair, even though his line is so nuttish.

He turned up with KK. He'd had KK 4 times in the span of 1.5 hours, and hit sets with them twice. He won every time and somehow didn't leave the table with a cool grand lol.

 

[baudib1]

Gross spot, but I think it's a fold. He's going to have you beat someway here like 90% unless he's a retard. He has T9, TT or slowplayed QQ+.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Yup. Thanks for posting baudib - good to see you about

This is frankly something that I really need to work on. It's something that I finally had more under control online (not making spewy calls when it should be clear I'm behind), but is a lot harder to do live for a number of reasons. Making good folds is something that will save me tons in losing hands.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

I'm also actually thinking of trying to take a step back toward the fundamentals and maybe even making a starting hand chart for various situations in live spots. Not just a generic one, but a few that I actually sit down and think about, ranging from

- "unopened" in various positions to
- 3 limpers in front of me and I'm in the CO with a huge loose passive fish who never folds in the SB

I think it will help me not just tighten up in spots where I should, but also just really get me thinking about what spots are really profitable, and hopefully ingrain it further. I know I'm playing a bit of a wide range in spots where I won't be in position (like 2 limpers in front of me and I'm looking down at something like 97s or T8o, where I know if I limp it will go 5way minimum).

But this week is school-hell, plus girlfriend will be visiting this coming weekend, so likely not much poker for a while =/

 

[xdeucesx]

Idk about you Matt, but when I began playing live, I definitely got caught up in the "fog" of everything too. One way I was able to combat it was just anytime I was making a move, take 3 seconds before hand.

Once you get use to taking a second to think before acting, I promise your play will get better and you'll play smarter.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Idk about you Matt, but when I began playing live, I definitely got caught up in the "fog" of everything too. One way I was able to combat it was just anytime I was making a move, take 3 seconds before hand.

Once you get use to taking a second to think before acting, I promise your play will get better and you'll play smarter.

Yeah, the taking time definitely is a part of it too, though it's not always as relevant. In that hand I took my time but still got lost in the decision.

The "fog" or "haze" is something that Tommy Angelo talks about in Elements I think, and I want to go back to it and see if he says more about it that I can't remember.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Well it's been almost a month since I've posted in here. I know, I know, bad me. Part of it has been that there hasn't been too much going on except for losing, which isn't an excuse really. Part of it has been that spots where I was losing weren't worth posting because I either ran like a paraplegic or made such a stupid play it was obvious where I went wrong.

But here's a hand from a session I played tonight:

1/2 live NLHE. I have in BB. UTG, MP1, MP2, and CO limp. I make it $12, UTG and MP1 call.

Flop (~$40)

I cbet $20, UTG smooth calls, MP1 folds.

Reads on UTG: he limps a very wide range (worst I saw were suited gappers), but I'm unsure of his limp-calling range. He is raising a fairly tight range from utg. Nothing exact obv, but I'm thinking like AQ, maybe AJ+, 99 or 88+, prob not KQ, but maybe KQs.

Turn (~$80)

I check, UTG quickly checks.

River (~$80)

I bet $45, and he asks how much I have left. I count it out and tell him: $95. He goes as if to move his whole stack (~$600) in, but says all in and pushes in $250. He then looks over at me and is staring me down, while I look straight back. I call.

I have been going back and forth about this hand a lot. We need about 26% equity against his river range to make this call profitable. I was screwing around with ranges and am thinking it's a pretty close spot.

One thing that made me call a bit quicker was his stare-down. Typically it's a sign of weakness, but I didn't have a basis to make a specific read on this player so the general tell was what I relied on a little. I also dwelled for a moment on the fact that he pushed in so much more than necessary (trying to look strong?).

I've already talked to some people on skype about this hand, but would love to hear some more thoughts.

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

33/QJ/QT? + we have BLOCKERS YO

depends how often he bluffs in this spot.. I call

 

[Matt Vaughan]

33/QJ/QT? + we have BLOCKERS YO

depends how often he bluffs in this spot.. I call

Lawled at this.

Here's the way I was looking at the hands I could think of that had some relevance (some of this will be obvious to other people but this is just how I went about thinking about it) - whether in his range or not.

AK/AQ - Would open preflop -> 0 combos
AJ/AT - Most likely open preflop, wouldn't shove the river -> 0 combos
KQ - Might open preflop, might not, very slight weighting to offsuit -> 0 - 4 combos
KJ/KT - Wouldn't shove the river -> 0 combos
K9 - Could limp-call this suited preflop for sure, unsuited I'm less sure about. If he does have that preflop, he plays it exactly like this post-flop, with a little bit less weight since he might not call the flop with just a gutshot and a vulnerable over -> weighted at about 75%, 3 - 12 combos
QJ - At first I thought he could absolutely have these, somewhat weighted toward suited, but I'm not sure that he checks the turn back with them. I'd probably weigh them at 50% for postflop play, and not sure about the offsuit combos -> 2 - 8 combos
QT - Same as above -> 2 - 8 combos
JT - doesn't play so passively, especially on the turn -> 0 combos
98 - Absolutely plays it this way, but hugely weighted toward suited as I don't think he limp-calls UTG with 98o -> ~4 combos

Any PP - Would have raised pre except for perhaps 33, but I don't think he'd play it was passively as he did, so I'm neglecting it entirely. -> 0 combos

Air - ??? -> ??? combos

Unfortunately the specifics of suited vs. non-suited as well as not knowing how much air he can have introduces a whoooole lot of uncertainty into his range. I would weigh everything toward suited, especially the more vulnerable hands like 98, as I said, but also probably QJ and QT, which is good because it cuts down the combos of hands that beat us. I don't think he differentiates much between suited and offsuit KQ, but it's tough to know if he would open that UTG or limp it.

Basically there's enough variability in here for it to be a correct or an incorrect call, depending on how the range is specifically defined. I'm kind of thinking it might be a fold read-less, and a very, very close call with physical tells. I don't think calling or folding the river is a huge mistake either way, since unless he doesn't open KQ and doesn't have air, calling isn't an enormous mistake getting like 2.8:1.

 

[Cafeman]

98 too right? Or have you taken that out of his range because of the Turn check back? Worse Qs pretty difficult for him to have unless it's specifically Q9s. This is probably a fold? River raises live are meant to never happen without the nuts or close to it no?

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

Lawled at this.

thanks dude.

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

btw my thinking was exactly the same, so it depends on how often he randomly spews if he does since we don't have Qx/boats that often?

we're kinda at the top of our range here.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

98 too right? Or have you taken that out of his range because of the Turn check back? Worse Qs pretty difficult for him to have unless it's specifically Q9s. This is probably a fold? River raises live are meant to never happen without the nuts or close to it no?

Do the maths. It's absurdly close depending on what combination of combos you allow him to have. I've stoved a few different ones and it's back and forth, though I lean to a fold read-less.

(See monster post above you.)

thanks dude.

I just meant the wording!!

 

[Matt Vaughan]

btw my thinking was exactly the same, so it depends on how often he randomly spews if he does since we don't have Qx/boats that often?

we're kinda at the top of our range here.

Yah I mean my perception of him changed in some later hands - at the time I wasn't thinking enough about my perceived range. But yes his perception of my range here should not be as strong as my range actually is, and may even contain some bluffs in his mind.

By the way guys, as for him being capable of river bluffing, I saw him bluff raise (and get caught) on one river, one turn, and two flops, and this was in a span of about 2 hours, so super approximately 60 hands.

 

[Cafeman]

Do the maths.

Hehe, well I haven't had the time to do the maths on it, but I looked at it and my brain went hmmm looks close

It's absurdly close depending on what combination of combos you allow him to have. I've stoved a few different ones and it's back and forth, though I lean to a fold read-less.

Yes, that's my feeling too, but you were there and looked into the dude's soul man!

Was there any table talk? Did you flip a Q and look for his reaction etc.? lmao

(See monster post above you.)

Ah, didn't see that either, I thought I was replying to 9k.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Hehe, well I haven't had the time to do the maths on it, but I looked at it and my brain went hmmm looks close


Yes, that's my feeling too, but you were there and looked into the dude's soul man!

Was there any table talk? Did you flip a Q and look for his reaction etc.? lmao


Ah, didn't see that either, I thought I was replying to 9k.

You say that as a joke, but table talk is extremely helpful. Gauging someone's comfort level after a river bet can be essential to picking off bluffs.

But no in this instance there was no table talk and I didn't go fishing for more reads, though I perhaps could have done so successfully in retrospect.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

bump

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

nothing else to say if i'm gonna get sarcastic responses!

nah but seriously lol, I don't think there's anything else much to say about this hand that hasn't been said.

 

[Cafeman]

Yeah pretty much what he said. Now you've told us he can river raise bluff, and it was close anyway, then maybe you should have a coin in your pocket to toss on such occasions

 

[ionized77]

cash game forums

Its hard to find a cash game forum, which sucks because I dont play online and its a totally different animal. i found a great site that has great readings on live 1/2, 2/5, and 5/10.
These guys also offer coaching and are serious about their shit, which is great because I dont have any friends as serious about the game as I am to discuss poker hands and strategy, or especially, the what and why. its called stackem coaching. you can read the forums for free. the coaching is expensive but if I lived in Vegas where they are,i would do it for sure because they will sweat you, which is awsome. im looking forward to this,i hope it gets going