Live Grind: How to Fall Asleep at the Table (Without Getting Caught)
Trabendo_daze
Rock Star
Silver Level
Reraising OTF with an open-ender against someone who has basically told you that they have TT or AT seems quite ambitious - I agree with Sandbag. However Duggs, if we suppose that there is some sort of inflection point where villain decides he will or will not call the river, wouldn't that just say we could be bluffing this river or getting value, size dependent? Like for example he will call anything sub 500 but fold anything above that. River sizing would allow us to accomplish either, right? Both seem to be possible (although the way this hand unfolded Scourge never had QJ unless he is temporarily imitating Tom Dwan).
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Love the conversation in here guys. Haven't responded because I've been busy at work, doing a lot of off-table studying after, and lots of playing on the weekend.
I promise I'll get around to replying to that hand discussion cause I think there's some really good stuff flying around.
Other bit is that I played the MSPT in Tama, Iowa this weekend, and placed 14th on 1 bullet. Not a very big cash, but still nice to get the validation of semi-continuously making the final 3 tables in this 400+ entry events. Cliffs from the tournament are that I had arguably my biggest blow-up to date during day 1, but managed to climb back and attain a very sizable stack. In the mid-late stages I ran pretty piss poor, losing several all-ins when I wasn't at risk, and just overall not picking up many spots. There was one hand where I value bet semi-thin on the river (I didn't even think it was that thin until we made it to showdown). I may post it later.
Anyway, lots of good stuff, even if I can't seem to break back through to a final table. One guy who I played a lot of hours with has two wins from that event (very uncommon to have two). He was really solid, if a bit too sticky post-flop, and when we redrew seats at 27 players, he groaned when I was sat to his immediate left, which was really gratifying. I respected him a lot as a player, so to hear him give that reaction was great.
I promise I'll get around to replying to that hand discussion cause I think there's some really good stuff flying around.
Other bit is that I played the MSPT in Tama, Iowa this weekend, and placed 14th on 1 bullet. Not a very big cash, but still nice to get the validation of semi-continuously making the final 3 tables in this 400+ entry events. Cliffs from the tournament are that I had arguably my biggest blow-up to date during day 1, but managed to climb back and attain a very sizable stack. In the mid-late stages I ran pretty piss poor, losing several all-ins when I wasn't at risk, and just overall not picking up many spots. There was one hand where I value bet semi-thin on the river (I didn't even think it was that thin until we made it to showdown). I may post it later.
Anyway, lots of good stuff, even if I can't seem to break back through to a final table. One guy who I played a lot of hours with has two wins from that event (very uncommon to have two). He was really solid, if a bit too sticky post-flop, and when we redrew seats at 27 players, he groaned when I was sat to his immediate left, which was really gratifying. I respected him a lot as a player, so to hear him give that reaction was great.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Well I definitely made his life harder but he ended up busting me out of the tournament lol.
I think you guys are spot on in the 99 > AT hand when saying that there's no way I get to the river with QJ in this exact spot. It's safe to say that my range is absurdly narrow here. AT is probably the slam-dunk absolute bottom of my 3betting range on this flop, though QJcc or 87cc MIGHT make it in there sometimes I guess if I'm feeling frisky.
Duggs, can you elaborate on why you think we should just be shipping it? I like using counterfactuals, but I'm not sure saying I wouldn't shove QJ on the river is relevant. I think there was enough uncertainty at the river that even if I DID get there, I wouldn't shove with it. But also it's a huge disaster if I lose $500 of value because I shove. (Though I guess it's almost equally bad if I miss the $400 of value by NOT shoving - I definitely should have gone at least like $650, but my point is that not getting him to put anything in would be way worse than missing some on the top, in a spot that I'm never going to get in against him again.)
I am definitely kicking myself though over the sizing on all streets actually. I think both flop AND turn could have been bigger, which just makes the river so much easier, and it doesn't pull up any questions of elasticity really because we can make each street a bit larger instead of having to make the river a TON larger.
I think you guys are spot on in the 99 > AT hand when saying that there's no way I get to the river with QJ in this exact spot. It's safe to say that my range is absurdly narrow here. AT is probably the slam-dunk absolute bottom of my 3betting range on this flop, though QJcc or 87cc MIGHT make it in there sometimes I guess if I'm feeling frisky.
Duggs, can you elaborate on why you think we should just be shipping it? I like using counterfactuals, but I'm not sure saying I wouldn't shove QJ on the river is relevant. I think there was enough uncertainty at the river that even if I DID get there, I wouldn't shove with it. But also it's a huge disaster if I lose $500 of value because I shove. (Though I guess it's almost equally bad if I miss the $400 of value by NOT shoving - I definitely should have gone at least like $650, but my point is that not getting him to put anything in would be way worse than missing some on the top, in a spot that I'm never going to get in against him again.)
I am definitely kicking myself though over the sizing on all streets actually. I think both flop AND turn could have been bigger, which just makes the river so much easier, and it doesn't pull up any questions of elasticity really because we can make each street a bit larger instead of having to make the river a TON larger.
duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
you don't want to 3bet QJdd TXcc QJcc KJcc KQcc 87dd? id want to 3bet all of them given you think we can barrel this guy off AT and worse by the river (even 9T sort of becomes a very attractive bluff combo against his nut range). and thats on a runout where no draws really came in, we can be getting a huge number of folds most club turns or any straightening turns. either we can get good value on the river and should just be taking a nutty value range to the river and challenging him to make big folds, or we should have some bluffs and really put his feet to the fire on lots of run outs and challenge him to call us down enough. it can't be neither, or at least it shouldn't be. either way never bluffing and undersizing river just seems like a suboptimal way to build our ranges when we have a substantial range advantage, and also have a much better chance of making good decisions later in the hand than him. getting 4bet with all of the hands above don't make for difficult decisions either.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
I hear all the above, and it makes sense, but it's not like I'm "constructing ranges" off-table for spots like this. So it's just a spot I'm going to make a mistake like this in an effort not to make a larger error.
Maybe that's wrong, but I've had so many spots in the past where I went for max value and got none because I sized really big. This was a pretty special hand though where we can put him really solidly on a second-nut class of hand, so I agree we should just go for the home run.
It's just an unfortunate reality that in the moment when playing the second biggest pot of my life, I don't do an awesome job thinking the above through - awesome stuff to review though.
Maybe that's wrong, but I've had so many spots in the past where I went for max value and got none because I sized really big. This was a pretty special hand though where we can put him really solidly on a second-nut class of hand, so I agree we should just go for the home run.
It's just an unfortunate reality that in the moment when playing the second biggest pot of my life, I don't do an awesome job thinking the above through - awesome stuff to review though.
Mr Sandbag
Legend
Silver Level
Live poker though so our reads aren't static. 3b flop with the plan to barrel air seems terrible against a guy who has been paying us off. Villain getting really uncomfortable with the spot is info we don't have until after we 3b.
duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
if this not a fairly std spot on the flop? facing a raise on a board we connect fairly well with? like QJdd for example im not exactly thrilled about calling, or TJcc, or alot of the others.
duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
but this is inconsistent, if he has been paying us off we shouldnt be worried that he is suddenly going to find a fold button just because he gets uncomfortable.
duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
yea but being uncomfortable doesnt have any actionable effect on reads on the river. if anything its more of a slam dunk since never TT
or3o1990
Legend
Silver Level
Hey scourrge. Are you going to be playing the MSPT in Milwaukee in two weeks? I'm just curious because I'm flying into MKE on the 6th and I wouldn't mind railing you when you make a deep run!
Also, I might play a couple of satellites and I wanted to ask if you have any pointers on which are better to play and what not.
Also, I might play a couple of satellites and I wanted to ask if you have any pointers on which are better to play and what not.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Hey oreo, yep I'll be playing there ldo lol. It's the second closest one to me so I'll be there. My next few weeks look like this:
4/2 - MSPT at Running Aces (Minneapolis)
4/9 - MSPT at Potawatomi (Milwaukee)
4/16 - Cash games at Potawatomi (Milwaukee)
4/23 - MSPT at Canterbury Park (Minneapolis)
Gonna be pretty crazy but I'm excited - especially because I'll actually be taking those drives in a new-to-me car. Gonna be a big step up from my '97 Honda Accord, in terms of comfort, road noise, safety, everything.
But if you wanna stop by and say hello, grab a bite, whatever, I'd be down for it. I'll be limited by the tourney schedule obv, but if I bust out I'll still hang around since I've got a hotel booked Saturday night. What's bringing you to Milwaukee??
or3o1990
Legend
Silver Level
That's intense, glgl. How long have you been grinding the tour?
I'm just sick of being here in Alabama and want to visit some friends and family. I'll be staying in the area until my June, when my sister walks the stage. Yeah I'll come say what's up for sure. I'm gonna be playing some cash there myself while I'm in town too. What stakes do you play when you play cash games?
Mr Sandbag
Legend
Silver Level
Let's just say the small blind would be a down payment on a yacht.
Jillychemung
Stacks & Stacks
Loyaler
New or new-to-me, it's always nice the first couple of months to pilot some new wheels, congrats!
or3o1990
Legend
Silver Level
lol I prefer a mcdouble as my BB
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
For suuuuuure. I'm really excited - picking up the car today after work!
Lmao, I definitely don't play "high" stakes by any means, but I typically play 2/5 if it's running and the game isn't terrible (and it's never terrible). Poto also has 1/3 running 24/7, and 3/6 limit too, if you're into simulated torture.
I played a few MSPT's last year, but I wouldn't say I started "grinding" the tour until the end of the year leading into this year. I had the realization that there just aren't that many good players at any of the stops, and I had potential to continue making deep runs with higher consistency than in tougher fields. So I made a really conscious decision to make a full MTT schedule for the year, almost exclusively of MTT's, since there are a ton of stops within a 6-hour drive from where I live.
I'm also at a stage in my financial life where cash games are great but it's hard for me to build a big roll just based on the hours I have available to play. With tourneys, I can afford the swings to an extent because I have a job and I can absorb the losses. But on top of that, if I go on a heater and win something, it basically keeps me at the 1k+ tourney buyin level forever, gives me more financial freedom than I currently have, and lets me more easily take shots at bigger cash games when opportunity allows.
or3o1990
Legend
Silver Level
I'm quite stingy with my bankroll and I'd rather play 1/2 than 1/3 honestly but if that's what they offer I guess that's what I'll have to play. I'll definitely pass on the limit poker lol.
That's cool. I've only tried to qualify a couple of times because I can't justify buying straight in. Unfortunately, I only play play poker so I don't have any wiggle room when it comes to BRM. I will bend the rules for the 350 dollar BI in July though. Are you planning to play that one?
Good luck man, I'm sure you'll make a final table soon if you keep at it. I would be sick if you did it in Milwaukee though!
duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
its very common to just sell action btw, thats what most people do when they arent properly rolled.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Btw I meant most of the MTT's on my schedule this year are MSPT's - obv all MTT's are MTT's lol.
And yeah what duggs said. Until recently I was selling 20-40% of my $1k's. I just made the decision to buy in straight because I have a solid monthly income from my job that eases the swings.
Fired about $500 of MTT's on BV tonight and bricked them all. Ran deep in about 3, and stone bubbled the $75+$7.50 ($15 bounty). Misplayed a few spots but overall pretty happy with how I played. I tend to spew off REALLY hard in online tournaments, and for the most part I kept it together. Just mostly couldn't hold in the spots I needed to, in particular a couple big pots with KK where I couldn't catch up after an ace flopped.
All-in-all not too bad though, and I'm really looking forward to this weekend.
@oreo: Definitely going to try to play the regional at poto as well since it's so close to me relatively. That one's not as great a structure though, and it's a ridiculously top-heavy event. I have mixed feelings about that but I'll probably still play.
And yeah what duggs said. Until recently I was selling 20-40% of my $1k's. I just made the decision to buy in straight because I have a solid monthly income from my job that eases the swings.
Fired about $500 of MTT's on BV tonight and bricked them all. Ran deep in about 3, and stone bubbled the $75+$7.50 ($15 bounty). Misplayed a few spots but overall pretty happy with how I played. I tend to spew off REALLY hard in online tournaments, and for the most part I kept it together. Just mostly couldn't hold in the spots I needed to, in particular a couple big pots with KK where I couldn't catch up after an ace flopped.
All-in-all not too bad though, and I'm really looking forward to this weekend.
@oreo: Definitely going to try to play the regional at poto as well since it's so close to me relatively. That one's not as great a structure though, and it's a ridiculously top-heavy event. I have mixed feelings about that but I'll probably still play.
or3o1990
Legend
Silver Level
I guess I never really considered trying to sell action. I do eventually want to try grinding live tournaments too but I've been hyper focused on cash games for the past 9 months or so. I'm starting to mix them in on Bovada lately though.
The regional event will probably still be good value though because it's during the wsop. So there should be a better ratio of pros/amateurs. That was what I was thinking anyhow.
The regional event will probably still be good value though because it's during the wsop. So there should be a better ratio of pros/amateurs. That was what I was thinking anyhow.