Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
There is merit to this, and I really am curious to see if others have thoughts as well.
There is merit to this, and I really am curious to see if others have thoughts as well.
Figaroo2
Legend
Bronze Level
This post is 10 years old but still valid. We check this flop....
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/?highlight=way+ahead+way+behind
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/?highlight=way+ahead+way+behind
Alucard
Santoryu
Silver Level
yeah you've shown me this before. But this is IN POSITION.
We are talking OOP. c9 told me that WA/WB doesn't apply oop.
Alucard
Santoryu
Silver Level
you are asking all the hard questions.
You've got to ask him. Or perhaps I understood it wrong??!!!? I remember him clearly saying something like that.
At least found something
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/5-nlhe-6-max-set-jacks-347737/
But I really like the bet fold line other than check call fold line cause it's not just 1 street of play. What are you gonna do on turn & river???
I'll post on john's thread as well.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
We don't do things because, we do them for a reason, based on whatever logic is applicable. I feel check/calling the V makes far more mistakes than if we bet here.
Alucard
Santoryu
Silver Level
Alright. I'll make some adjustments & will see how it goes. But I still feel checking here is too passive & lets the V to bluff/ Value bet more/ or even draw cheaply.
If it was Ip I'd certainly check back but still not certain OOP.
duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
you are asking all the hard questions.
You've got to ask him. Or perhaps I understood it wrong??!!!? I remember him clearly saying something like that.
At least found something
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/5-nlhe-6-max-set-jacks-347737/
But I really like the bet fold line other than check call fold line cause it's not just 1 street of play. What are you gonna do on turn & river???
I'll post on john's thread as well.
you are comparing a monotone board where we have the 2nd nut flush draw with JJd on AKxddd with KK 3bet pot on Axx. One is WA/WB one is not
Alucard
Santoryu
Silver Level
If the river wasn't a J should ever call this??
PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com
BTN: 101.8 BB
SB: 121 BB (VPIP: 12.50, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 27.38, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 2.78, Hands: 86)
UTG: 174.8 BB (VPIP: 20.37, PFR: 18.52, 3Bet Preflop: 9.52, Hands: 58)
Hero (MP): 248.8 BB
CO: 180.6 BB (VPIP: 38.00, PFR: 30.00, 3Bet Preflop: 20.83, Hands: 51)
SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB
Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Ac 5c
fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, fold, fold, fold
Flop : (7.4 BB, 2 players) 3c Qc 4c
Hero bets 5 BB, CO calls 5 BB
Turn : (17.4 BB, 2 players) Qh
Hero bets 10 BB, CO calls 10 BB
River : (37.4 BB, 2 players) Jd
Hero bets 25 BB, CO raises to 162.6 BB and is all-in, fold
CO wins 83.8 BB
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com
BTN: 101.8 BB
SB: 121 BB (VPIP: 12.50, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 27.38, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 2.78, Hands: 86)
UTG: 174.8 BB (VPIP: 20.37, PFR: 18.52, 3Bet Preflop: 9.52, Hands: 58)
Hero (MP): 248.8 BB
CO: 180.6 BB (VPIP: 38.00, PFR: 30.00, 3Bet Preflop: 20.83, Hands: 51)
SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB
Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Ac 5c
fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, fold, fold, fold
Flop : (7.4 BB, 2 players) 3c Qc 4c
Hero bets 5 BB, CO calls 5 BB
Turn : (17.4 BB, 2 players) Qh
Hero bets 10 BB, CO calls 10 BB
River : (37.4 BB, 2 players) Jd
Hero bets 25 BB, CO raises to 162.6 BB and is all-in, fold
CO wins 83.8 BB
B
braveslice
Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Same line Alucard was using 2ndP (bet/fold), was taught for me against aggressive players OOP. The idea, as I understood it, is that he will push you from the hand anyways if you check, so hero doesn't mind folding to a raise - a payoff to have easier line. This wasn't in 3bet pot though.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
That's assuming hero doesn't have the balls to call a aggro player down. I've called 3 times with KK on ace high boards a few times. Three streets of value against a spew tard sometimes.
Alucard
Santoryu
Silver Level
speechless
PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com
BTN: 133.6 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 1)
SB: 113.4 BB (VPIP: 26.80, PFR: 23.71, 3Bet Preflop: 11.90, Hands: 98)
BB: 108.6 BB (VPIP: 22.78, PFR: 16.46, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 81)
UTG: 193 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
Hero (MP): 535 BB
CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 20.57, PFR: 14.86, 3Bet Preflop: 4.55, Hands: 178)
SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB
Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Qh Qd
UTG raises to 3 BB, Hero calls 3 BB, fold, BTN raises to 13.4 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 10.4 BB
Flop : (31.2 BB, 2 players) 5d 8c 2h
Hero checks, BTN bets 20 BB, Hero raises to 47 BB, BTN calls 27 BB
Turn : (125.2 BB, 2 players) Tc
Hero bets 76 BB, BTN calls 73.2 BB and is all-in
River : (271.6 BB, 2 players) Kh
Hero shows Qh Qd (One Pair, Queens)
(Pre 54%, Flop 74%, Turn 86%)
BTN shows As Ks (One Pair, Kings)
(Pre 46%, Flop 26%, Turn 14%)
BTN wins 260.4 BB
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com
BTN: 133.6 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 1)
SB: 113.4 BB (VPIP: 26.80, PFR: 23.71, 3Bet Preflop: 11.90, Hands: 98)
BB: 108.6 BB (VPIP: 22.78, PFR: 16.46, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 81)
UTG: 193 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
Hero (MP): 535 BB
CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 20.57, PFR: 14.86, 3Bet Preflop: 4.55, Hands: 178)
SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB
Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Qh Qd
UTG raises to 3 BB, Hero calls 3 BB, fold, BTN raises to 13.4 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 10.4 BB
Flop : (31.2 BB, 2 players) 5d 8c 2h
Hero checks, BTN bets 20 BB, Hero raises to 47 BB, BTN calls 27 BB
Turn : (125.2 BB, 2 players) Tc
Hero bets 76 BB, BTN calls 73.2 BB and is all-in
River : (271.6 BB, 2 players) Kh
Hero shows Qh Qd (One Pair, Queens)
(Pre 54%, Flop 74%, Turn 86%)
BTN shows As Ks (One Pair, Kings)
(Pre 46%, Flop 26%, Turn 14%)
BTN wins 260.4 BB
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
Alucard
Santoryu
Silver Level
Lost today as well. So damn depressing. Was loosing then became break even then lost 4 buy ins then came very close to break even & now again down 4. Last couple of days I've lost approximately around $150 of profits I've made playing 5NL zoom.
Hate the game sometimes.
Might move away from stars if this keeps on.
Hate the game sometimes.
Might move away from stars if this keeps on.
PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com
Hero (BTN): 139.8 BB
SB: 323.4 BB (VPIP: 30.00, PFR: 30.00, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 10)
BB: 277 BB (VPIP: 27.69, PFR: 16.92, 3Bet Preflop: 3.23, Hands: 65)
UTG: 115 BB (VPIP: 26.97, PFR: 21.35, 3Bet Preflop: 5.71, Hands: 90)
MP: 169 BB (VPIP: 42.86, PFR: 39.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 29)
CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 13.48, PFR: 9.57, 3Bet Preflop: 3.16, Hands: 233)
SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB
Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Qs Qh
fold, fold, CO raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 6 BB
Flop : (19.4 BB, 2 players) 6s Td 7h
CO checks, Hero bets 12 BB, CO calls 12 BB
Turn : (43.4 BB, 2 players) 3s
CO checks, Hero bets 30 BB, CO calls 30 BB
River : (103.4 BB, 2 players) Jd
CO bets 49 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 49 BB
CO shows Ts Js (Two Pair, Jacks and Tens)
(Pre 18%, Flop 24%, Turn 30%)
Hero shows Qs Qh (One Pair, Queens)
(Pre 82%, Flop 76%, Turn 70%)
CO wins 193 BB
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com
Hero (BTN): 139.8 BB
SB: 323.4 BB (VPIP: 30.00, PFR: 30.00, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 10)
BB: 277 BB (VPIP: 27.69, PFR: 16.92, 3Bet Preflop: 3.23, Hands: 65)
UTG: 115 BB (VPIP: 26.97, PFR: 21.35, 3Bet Preflop: 5.71, Hands: 90)
MP: 169 BB (VPIP: 42.86, PFR: 39.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 29)
CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 13.48, PFR: 9.57, 3Bet Preflop: 3.16, Hands: 233)
SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB
Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Qs Qh
fold, fold, CO raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 6 BB
Flop : (19.4 BB, 2 players) 6s Td 7h
CO checks, Hero bets 12 BB, CO calls 12 BB
Turn : (43.4 BB, 2 players) 3s
CO checks, Hero bets 30 BB, CO calls 30 BB
River : (103.4 BB, 2 players) Jd
CO bets 49 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 49 BB
CO shows Ts Js (Two Pair, Jacks and Tens)
(Pre 18%, Flop 24%, Turn 30%)
Hero shows Qs Qh (One Pair, Queens)
(Pre 82%, Flop 76%, Turn 70%)
CO wins 193 BB
Figaroo2
Legend
Bronze Level
If I were you I'd just give playing zoom a rest and go back to multi tabling regular tables.
Firstly I think the speed of zoom is bad for your game development. It is really difficult to slow down and start thinking about ranges properly mid hand with other tables beeping away in the background it leads to snap ill thought out decisions.
2nd playing with unknowns reduces any skill edge you develop around hud stat interpretation, again zoom is so fast you dont get much time to examine your opponents stats.
As im sure you are aware there are some really bad aggro players in the zoom pools and they get away with stupid levels of agression because you have to give a relatively unknown player a certain amount of respect. The problem is this can cause you to overplay hands against all opponents and it all becomes a high variance guessing game. I dabble with zoom every now and can beat it at 10nl but not 25.
I just vastly prefer bumhunting fish on regular tables where they are sat with you every hand and you can get a much better read and can exploit players weaknesses better. In the last hand you published where he leads into on the river with a better read on his game you might be able to get away from that hand.
Firstly I think the speed of zoom is bad for your game development. It is really difficult to slow down and start thinking about ranges properly mid hand with other tables beeping away in the background it leads to snap ill thought out decisions.
2nd playing with unknowns reduces any skill edge you develop around hud stat interpretation, again zoom is so fast you dont get much time to examine your opponents stats.
As im sure you are aware there are some really bad aggro players in the zoom pools and they get away with stupid levels of agression because you have to give a relatively unknown player a certain amount of respect. The problem is this can cause you to overplay hands against all opponents and it all becomes a high variance guessing game. I dabble with zoom every now and can beat it at 10nl but not 25.
I just vastly prefer bumhunting fish on regular tables where they are sat with you every hand and you can get a much better read and can exploit players weaknesses better. In the last hand you published where he leads into on the river with a better read on his game you might be able to get away from that hand.
Last edited:
Alucard
Santoryu
Silver Level
Wicked hand. Analysis??
PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com
BTN: 92 BB (VPIP: 18.60, PFR: 13.95, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 47)
SB: 193.2 BB (VPIP: 34.15, PFR: 34.15, 3Bet Preflop: 15.38, Hands: 44)
Hero (BB): 229.2 BB
UTG: 124.6 BB (VPIP: 21.12, PFR: 17.39, 3Bet Preflop: 6.90, Hands: 171)
MP: 174.6 BB (VPIP: 7.84, PFR: 5.88, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 54)
CO: 133.4 BB (VPIP: 30.91, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 8.00, Hands: 57)
SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB
Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Ah Ac
fold, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to 3.2 BB, Hero raises to 9 BB, SB calls 5.8 BB
Flop : (18 BB, 2 players) 3d 9c Qc
SB checks, Hero bets 10 BB, SB raises to 22.2 BB, Hero calls 12.2 BB
Turn : (62.4 BB, 2 players) 6d
SB bets 39.4 BB, Hero calls 39.4 BB
River : (141.2 BB, 2 players) Kh
SB checks, Hero checks
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com
BTN: 92 BB (VPIP: 18.60, PFR: 13.95, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 47)
SB: 193.2 BB (VPIP: 34.15, PFR: 34.15, 3Bet Preflop: 15.38, Hands: 44)
Hero (BB): 229.2 BB
UTG: 124.6 BB (VPIP: 21.12, PFR: 17.39, 3Bet Preflop: 6.90, Hands: 171)
MP: 174.6 BB (VPIP: 7.84, PFR: 5.88, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 54)
CO: 133.4 BB (VPIP: 30.91, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 8.00, Hands: 57)
SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB
Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Ah Ac
fold, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to 3.2 BB, Hero raises to 9 BB, SB calls 5.8 BB
Flop : (18 BB, 2 players) 3d 9c Qc
SB checks, Hero bets 10 BB, SB raises to 22.2 BB, Hero calls 12.2 BB
Turn : (62.4 BB, 2 players) 6d
SB bets 39.4 BB, Hero calls 39.4 BB
River : (141.2 BB, 2 players) Kh
SB checks, Hero checks
Alucard
Santoryu
Silver Level
Yeah I get your point Bruce & I've been thinking the same.
TBH I had the goal to move away as possible from stars but after achieving the $500 BR mark. But wiill try next month as well by committing a lot.
If things don't improve, will move cash action completely to party or 888 or perhaps regular tables at stars.
Besides I think I have the edge over many 5NLers at other sites. So it's a matter of moving away from the short term goal I've set for now.
TBH I had the goal to move away as possible from stars but after achieving the $500 BR mark. But wiill try next month as well by committing a lot.
If things don't improve, will move cash action completely to party or 888 or perhaps regular tables at stars.
Besides I think I have the edge over many 5NLers at other sites. So it's a matter of moving away from the short term goal I've set for now.
Figaroo2
Legend
Bronze Level
AA hand
Id make it 13 or 14 on the flop.
The min raise on the flop suggests sets, AQ, 2pair, JT or a flush draw.
When he checks the river after the K arrives I feel like its a bet fold spot to get value from AQ or Kx where he hand a king high flush draw and paired his king.
But the possibility of JT getting there and the general lack of info I honestly wouldn't blame anyone for checking it down.
Id make it 13 or 14 on the flop.
The min raise on the flop suggests sets, AQ, 2pair, JT or a flush draw.
When he checks the river after the K arrives I feel like its a bet fold spot to get value from AQ or Kx where he hand a king high flush draw and paired his king.
But the possibility of JT getting there and the general lack of info I honestly wouldn't blame anyone for checking it down.
Figaroo2
Legend
Bronze Level
Well no excuses for him preflop...you are deep....will widen his calling range.... but I would expect to see plenty of flush draw in his range. Isn't this is how Polk is telling people how to play low card flush draws post flop?! This guy just decided to give up rather than follow through on what was actually a good scare card. He might have been putting you on JT!
Last edited:
Alucard
Santoryu
Silver Level
I don't think 35s isn't in the 3bet calling range at upswing. I don't think it's even included in the 3 bet bluffing range.
True I would've folded to another bet.
edit- seems like there are some changes in CC?? No quote buttons. Everything on wording.
Alucard
Santoryu
Silver Level
Ok I'm posting the complete 5NL zoom stats so far & it seems I'm in a really bad shape.
My red line is going way down. What's the issue here?? Need to fix this asap cause I've been pretty good with my red line.
Very much need your help guys.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ccshn7JZjuTMjfnovx0YPVUslEpagkOD
My red line is going way down. What's the issue here?? Need to fix this asap cause I've been pretty good with my red line.
Very much need your help guys.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ccshn7JZjuTMjfnovx0YPVUslEpagkOD
BuzzKillington
Rock Star
Silver Level
The red line going down means you are folding too often (when you have voluntarily put money into the pot). Possibly a lack of aggression and not following through on your preflop raises.
I know because I have the opposite problem: I don't fold enough. My blue line is your red line.
I know because I have the opposite problem: I don't fold enough. My blue line is your red line.