Best Software aid that wont get you into trouble

Elie_Yammine

Elie_Yammine

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Honestly Elie I do see where you are coming from and I am wondering the same thing myself. But yes if everyone is doing it so am I! I also believe that as time goes on pretty much everyone is going to be doing it. My opinion anyways if you have a moral objection to that then by all means stick too it.

So I agree with Eclipsenz on this point and I agree that poker has lost a major skill factor.However, if everybody else out there starts using programs to get an edge on us and if we insist on playing fair online poker, then i think we will have to install the software someday...(unless it becomes illegal :p)

I do have a moral objection, and to this day I'm still not using any software...But I'm also realistic, and when I feel that I really need the program to continue playing then I'll install it...As simple as that
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

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I agree and I disagree I believe online poker is not the same as live poker they are two different animals. They are played different and there are different skill sets used to play one from the other.

I also dont understand the whole honour of live play either that is being mentioned. You are refering to some golden age of the game before large tournaments were being televised at a regular basis. These professionals are watching and studying hours of tape on there opponents seeing all there hold cards for every hand that is being taped. That alone is so much worse then any program ever allowed for internet use. These same professionals are now playing huge amounts of online poker and making a huge amount of money. Do you honestly think for one moment they are not taking advantage of every possible software gain?

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Do you honestly think for one moment they are not taking advantage of every possible software gain
From what I've read & heard & asked, I don't believe that most of the 'televised pros' are even using any poker software... and for the most part, these aren't the guys who are taking it down online (aside from a handful of them in the nosebleed cash games).
 
Poker Orifice

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it lets you get an idea iof the skill i.e is someones got a good roi at a 5 dollar buy in you gotta think hes gotta be ok so youd treat his bets and stuff with respect wouldnt ya.. especially if it shows how much ITM% he has etc... yeah sure it wouldn't make that much of a difference but, if you saw someone with a negative ROI and if it was really bad youd walk all over him wouldnt ya at times.

Actually 'no'... more often than not, if the player has bad stats. (roi) & they're playing uber-aggressive, they are usually way over-valuing their hands in early levels and trying to pull off alot of bluffs, playing too many hands & spewing off their equity, etc. So 'no'... I wouldn't be choosing to "walk all over him"... but I will make adjustments > tend to check-raise, call down lighter, etc.
 
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suraj128

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Do these programs people are talking about just show past winning losing stats or do they provide much more detailed information on players? I havent looked into any program but I hear a lot of online players use something or other. Whats a good one that works with bodog?
 
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luckytokenz

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the bottom line is that you don"t have to use tracking software, but with So many players playing online, you can"t expect for everyone to feel the same, so with that being said, you should play online poker with a level footing, and have the tools nessasary to exploit their play just as they are doing to you. and alot of people misread the stats bc 1. not enough hands<3 rounds will tell you very little about someone where you can get a SOLID read on someone, you need atleast 1,000 hands. so someone grinding out the 1/2 c is going to run into so many people it will be hard to have data on anyone unless it"s for that session. 2. most people don"t have a clue of how the stat RANGES should look at their STAKE OR LEVEL. big difference in 1/2 DOLLAR VS. 1/2 CENT. it"s not cheating bc everyone can do it< and if you feel it is< transition to live poker.
 
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natsteel

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Do you honestly think for one moment they are not taking advantage of every possible software gain
From what I've read & heard & asked, I don't believe that most of the 'televised pros' are even using any poker software... and for the most part, these aren't the guys who are taking it down online (aside from a handful of them in the nosebleed cash games).

I have to say that I would be near shocked if I were to find out that top pros didn't use software like PT3 to study, at least, their own game. It seems to me, after reading this through, that Eclipsenz does not understand the distinction between, say, PT3 and sharkscope.

I tried Tournament Shark, similar to Sharkscope I guess, on a trial basis for a week and felt no need to buy the program. On the other hand, I don't believe any serious online player can be without PT3 or HEM. Taking a moral high road is admirable, if not anachronistic in this case, but, let's be honest, we play poker to win and make money. So then, why purposefully put yourself at a disadvantage? If you want a more "live" experience, then play live.
 
TPC

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If you don't have PT3 or HEM you are losing money and you don't like money!!! Plain and simple.

Don't bitch about something you know nothing about. All the info is out there, put the time in to do the research and understand things instead of sitting on your high horse calling it cheating. It's like if you have a photographic memory, it records everything that has happened in the past. So are you saying people that have a photographic memory shouldn't be allowed to play poker? It's a tool that everyone can use. And if you aren't using it you are only hurting yourself and no one else.

The funny thing is everyone talks about the hud like it tells you what to do. It doesn't tell you what to do, it gives you a better idea of a players range, much like you would have playing the same people live over and over. Noobs think it's all about the HUD, the hud is nice, but PT3 and HEM are about analyzing data and finding leaks in your game. Tracking win rates and trends. Tracks your poker finances and is where you get the data you need to pay taxes.

A lot of the nose bleed pros do use huds, there was a whole stink of Cole South and Brian Townsend and someone else sharing Islidur1 data, ect. So your top pros are using all the tools available. But again, it's a guide when you are playing but not something you are solely basing decisions off of. If you are, you're not using the HUD the right way and you are too dependent on your stats. Like sly said, most people don't use the data the right way anyway.

So quit crying about the HUD, you sound like an uneducated noob!! Buy PT3 or HEM because you care about your game and want to be able to analyze your play and become a better player.
 
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Elie_Yammine

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If you don't have PT3 or HEM you are losing money and you don't like money!!! Plain and simple.

Don't bitch about something you know nothing about. All the info is out there, put the time in to do the research and understand things instead of sitting on your high horse calling it cheating. It's like if you have a photographic memory, it records everything that has happened in the past. So are you saying people that have a photographic memory shouldn't be allowed to play poker? It's a tool that everyone can use. And if you aren't using it you are only hurting yourself and no one else.

The funny thing is everyone talks about the hud like it tells you what to do. It doesn't tell you what to do, it gives you a better idea of a players range, much like you would have playing the same people live over and over. Noobs think it's all about the HUD, the hud is nice, but PT3 and HEM are about analyzing data and finding leaks in your game. Tracking win rates and trends. Tracks your poker finances and is where you get the data you need to pay taxes.

A lot of the nose bleed pros do use huds, there was a whole stink of Cole South and Brian Townsend and someone else sharing Islidur1 data, ect. So your top pros are using all the tools available. But again, it's a guide when you are playing but not something you are solely basing decisions off of. If you are, you're not using the HUD the right way and you are too dependent on your stats. Like sly said, most people don't use the data the right way anyway.

So quit crying about the HUD, you sound like an uneducated noob!! Buy PT3 or HEM because you care about your game and want to be able to analyze your play and become a better player.

lol.That's the best advertising promotion I have ever seen :p. I like it when people get carried away :D. Oh and yea, might buy it real soon 2 :).
 
TPC

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If it was advertising I would be compensated in one way or another. I wasn't and I'm not favoring either tracking software. If you really want to get better and improve your game, buying tracking software is your best bet.
 
dmorris68

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People need to stop comparing online poker with live poker. Saying software isn't allowed live and therefore shouldn't be allowed online is simply ridiculous.

Playing live, you have access to physical reads that you do not have online. You're also typically facing a smaller player pool than online (unless you're playing nosebleeds), and a comparatively far smaller number of hands played.

Online you're potentially playing order(s) of magnitude more hands against that much larger player pool, and you have no physical reads. With the exception of chat tilt, you have no idea the mindset of your opponent -- you're reduced to betting patterns and timing. Tracking software simply evens that playing field. It would be no different than taking a notebook or tape recorder (Gus Hansen anyone?) to the live table with you and manually keeping it updated as you play, which btw is entirely within the rules. The manual approach isn't possible at online volume and speed, therefore an automated means to keep up with both yours and opponent's stats is an incredibly useful tool. And when multi-tabling, a HUD is almost a requirement to be competitive and profitable.

Finally, there is the immense benefit -- many will argue the best benefit of all -- of not even using the tracking software to track opponents, but to analyze your own game.

Nobody here is advocating the use of software that makes decisions for you. Those are obviously banned by virtually all reputable sites. Likewise nobody here is openly advocating datamining, which is also a TOS violation at most sites. But capturing your own stats, and stats on the opponents you face and using that yourself to draw conclusions about how to play against them is absolutely standard and to suggest it's cheating or somehow underhanded is ridiculous IMO. It's a tool that's available to any player, and almost without exception the only people complaining about it are people who either (a) are old school and averse to any technology, (b) just don't understand it or are grossly misinformed about it, or (c) don't have the desire or bankroll to pay for them. Usually some combination of the three.

As far as the top nosebleed players using software, no, it's much less common there, especially for those that had already been crushing live. These guys play the same players over and over and have developed skills that transcend any benefit that most software would provide. That said, many have said they've used tracking software while working their way up online, Durrr being one.
 
Pascal-lf

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Live and online are completely different games in some respects...

Live, you are playing only a few hands per hour, with physical reads, and only on one table.

Online, you are playing anywhere between 1 and 16 tables with hands occurring at a much faster rate and only a few reads (bet sizing/timing).
 
Elie_Yammine

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If it was advertising I would be compensated in one way or another. I wasn't and I'm not favoring either tracking software. If you really want to get better and improve your game, buying tracking software is your best bet.

LOL!Dude!I was joking...
 
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madison79

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I use Table Ninja, Hold em Manager, sng wizard (not when ps is running) and Wizard hud (Wizard overlay) and pokerstove.
I have sub to sharkscope and use it to determine if certain players are winners when doing my review of hands.
You aren't supposed to use it while at the table but some people have. Don't ever let them know ur using it since it could get you banned.

As far as the chat about if it should be used or not: It's personal choice of players to use the information/tools available and if they don't want to then fine. It's open for everyone to use or not use.
Personally, ur losing money if ur not using all the information that you can. Poker is a game of incomplete information.
 
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Eclipsenz

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yeah must say after having using PT for a few days it really does **** all if anything it helps you iron out the flaws rather than asist you in the game at the time being.. the seeing mucked hands though they have been mucked is what I don't get that though... why should you see the mucked hands?

The helping you read thing doesn't really do much at all.. that is of course if you know how to read.
 
dmorris68

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yeah must say after having using PT for a few days it really does **** all if anything it helps you iron out the flaws rather than asist you in the game at the time being.
Have you actually used the HUD? If not, then you'd be mostly correct, although HEM (not sure about PT, I think HEM eats PT3's lunch) does have other real-time features outside the HUD that you can use in-game, such as the Active Player Details window. If you're using a HUD and it's still not helping you in-game, then you're not using it correctly and/or don't understand what the stats mean.

the seeing mucked hands though they have been mucked is what I don't get that though... why should you see the mucked hands?
May I ask how long you've been playing online poker? Every major poker site includes mucked showdown hands in every hand history that you're dealt into. You're not seeing mucked hands that are folded pre-showdown, unless people choose to show them. Have you never replayed a hand in the site's replayer, or reviewed actual hand histories? You would have seen the same mucked hands there too (in fact this is where your tracking software gets them from). This is no different than live poker, where at showdown you must show your losing cards if asked. All of the poker sites automatically provide you with mucked showdown hands, plus any that are voluntarily shown.

The helping you read thing doesn't really do much at all.. that is of course if you know how to read.
Nonsense. The stats provided on your opponents is one the best and certainly most reliable (given a sufficient sample size) sources of information you can have in online poker.

I'm sorry, and no offense is intended, but this post is a perfect example of how frustrating this software conversation gets with people. Every statement you've made in this post indicates a lack of understanding both of how internet poker sites & their client software works, and how tracking software works and the purpose it serves. Which is fine -- we've all been there starting out -- but instead of saying "hey, I don't understand this stuff, please explain it to me" you've come here and made some pretty categorical statements that are frankly quite ignorant, despite all the information in this thread and countless others that explain things.

This goes back to my previous post where I pointed out that the vast majority of people who criticize tracking software or HUDs do so out of total ignorance of what it is and how it's used.
 
davejs1671@yahoo.com

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Holdem Manager without a doubt is the best, then in a close second is Poker Tracker 3, I have tried just about every software aid and the others dont even compare to PT3 and HEM. I prefer HEM and have had less problems with it than PT3. HEM also includes SNG wizard as an add on now so that is also a benefit along with the others that ity offers that make it the best choice IMO. Poker Crusher and the other items that use one large data mining data base are good but not allowed at most sites since they are constantly updating with info from all tables insted of just the ones you sit at or observe yourself.
 
davejs1671@yahoo.com

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dmorris68 is 100% correct and anyone that has used a HUD along with HEM or PT3 and actually learned how to use it properly will agree also.
 
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Eclipsenz

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@dmorris
I somewhat know how to read the hud i.e knowing the vpip and pr from person to person and fitting categories on em from fish to tag etc for the most part.. although since this is at micros it ain't always reliable and I don't go by just the basis of that... theres much more to it than that but I'm coming to terms with the others..

I've played online poker for a 8 months or so give or take.. and yeah call me noob but didn't realise mucked hands could be shown in the hands history, at showdown on request yes but most have it set up as if its a weaker hand it shows for a micro of a second then mucks..

And at the last thing you threw at me my way, maybe you are right, maybe after a sample of 100 hands or so it does give you a rather accurate 'read' if you will.. but relying just on the VPIP PR and AF factors will not give you all the info you need you need to see when and where they raised, how often they took it down etc which is easily found by clicking on their box.. I'm coming to terms with it but its alot of homework really. so I'm easing my way into it as concentrating on looking at stats plus play on the table I find hard to do especially if actions pretty frequent...

I heard HoldemManager is best too but its only got a 14 day trial as opposed to PTs 60 day.. so I'll wait both out before I make any informed decision on which to purchase.
 
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TheWall

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Eclipse,
The main purpose of the HUD--at least at microstakes-- is to give you a quick read on the player if you are multitabling. If his VP is 40 you know he is entering a lot of pots so he isn't tight and if his PR is something low like 3 you know he isn't raising much so he probably has a good hand when he does. Its the same sort of reads you could make if you were at a live table, but with the large amount of players you face online this simplifies things.
 
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Eclipsenz

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Yeah I know somewhat like if he had a VP of 40+ PR of 3 or what not he is fishy and doesn't raise alot of hands i.e he wouldn't raise AQ etc am I on the right track

Person with a VP of 25+ and PR half that shows hes semi loose.

Person with 17-22VP and about 12PR or whatnot shows hes a TAG also AF comes into play aswell 40-60 shows for the most part good solid aggression right?

I dunno I've been following this guide but it is alot to take in http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055197237
 
dmorris68

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Eclipsenz, VPIP/PFR/AF are the primary stats you'll look at most of the time to get a quick read as to fishiness. But they're quite reliable at the micro stakes, not sure what you mean there -- if you have enough samples, they're reliable at any stakes. In fact they're probably more reliable at micro stakes because those players don't know how to change gears when they need to.

The actual value ranges for VPIP as far as classifying a player will vary between full ring or 6-max or HU. 25+ VPIP over a sizable sample is considered quite loose in FR, where most TAGs are somewhere around 14-17. And an AF of 40 probably isn't even possible, you must be talking about Agg%. Over a sizable sample, AF (aggression factor) is seldom much above 5.0, which would be very aggressive. Anything above 2.0 over a large sample is considered aggressive.

There are so many other useful HUD stats too especially for cash games and especially once you've got a decent sample (and 100 is not a decent sample for most stats). Steal%, Cbet%, 3bet%, Fold to cbet/3bet, WTSD, W$SD, etc. etc. My cash HUD has about 15 stats on it. The additional HUD stats are less useful in SnG/MTT games unless you grind enough to get a lot of hands on the regulars. But against the casual player you won't develop a sample large enough for those other stats to converge. Still, the basic stats like VPIP, PFR, AF, and Cbet/FCbet are still quite useful even over a smallish sample.
 
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Eclipsenz

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Yeah thnx for that.. noted... I dunno about you though but I find a VP of 14-17 far too nitty imo I'm normally 20-25 which maybe a lil bit on the looser side but adds abit more flexibility.. I dunno whenever I see a TAg like your describing VP wise.. they just never play hands...

Aggression factor yeah I mean the sample size mine always hovers around 40-60 which is good I think.. but yeah.. I'll just stick to the things ya said and go from there in due time but if ya say thats the jist of it then I guess I'll take ya word for it lol.
 
dmorris68

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FR nits are in the 8-12 range, sometimes even less if they're uber-nits. Almost all beginner players are too loose and think 25 is a good VPIP in FR. It's not bad if you know what you're doing as a LAG with good post-flop skills, but typically with players that are just starting out, 25 is way too loose in a FR game.

Just look around at the other players at the table-- as a general rule, if the table overall is playing loose, you should be playing tight, and vice-versa. When I'm multi-tabling, I might be playing a 15/12 session at one table, while playing 21/18 at another. So like anything else, it's situational, but over a large sample you should probably be coming in well below 25 VPIP average in FR unless you're a solid LAG (which takes quite a bit skill and experience). This is particularly true at micro/low stakes. As you move up, things can change dramatically and the top players tend to play a lot more hands preflop because they want to outplay their opponents post-flop.

Since we're diverging from the original topic of software discussion, we have some good tutorial articles and posts on stats and HUDs around here at CC that will explain things in more detail. Some are stickied and should be easy to find with a search.
 
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Eclipsenz

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Late reply

But yeah I figured the nits are 10- and its just lol seeing those at the table especially when your on the bubble and 2 of em have about an even stack with you, got nothing to worry about really, just gotta play wisely.

I suppose 25 is loose.. but I've been playing that way for soooo long I've become accustomed to it, like you said its situational so if I find players are onto me, or not giving me enough cred etc, I will tighten up.

But yeah the hud is helpful and when its late game I tend to dig more into their Cbet% WTSD etc etc depending on the player
 
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