What if? Episode 28

[mrsnake3695]

I disagree with folding preflop with pocket 7s. If possible I want to see a cheap flop with as many players as possible with any small pair. It should play pretty easy after the flop. If you get a set you can make alot of money especially if you are up against a big pocket pair or tptk. I know he is utg but I would still try to see a flop with any pocket pair here. As for the flop play, you now have an over pair and a gut shot. You are getting 3-1 and may have the best hand. I don't mind the call, if you raise here and villan pushes you have to fold what may well be the best hand and never get the chance to see if hit your straight.

Where I do agree with Dorkus is you absolutly must bet/raise the turn. I said earlier I would push all in here especially since you have less than the size of the pot left.

I know you have taken alot of grief for this hand. Is this a hand you actually played or did you just make this up to start a conversation. If you did actually play this hand this way you (and otheres that may have played similar hands the same way) definately need to learn form what the other chatters are saying.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

I disagree with folding preflop with pocket 7s. If possible I want to see a cheap flop with as many players as possible with any small pair.

If he was in LP with 2-3 limpers in already, fine. UTG, at all but the most passive of tables (we still don't know if this is a full table or not, but I'm basing my view on a full table), you have to let it go simply because there's a very large chance you're going to get raised preflop and be faced with a tricky decision, which could, as in the example, lead to further tricky decisions, with the preflop raiser having the initiative and you (usually) being out of position.

If you get a set you can make alot of money especially if you are up against a big pocket pair or tptk.

Big pocket pairs are invariably raising preflop. So are hands with big TPTK potential like AK-AQ. Once the pot is raised your implied odds obviously take a hit because (a) you're forced to put more money in preflop to play, and (b) in most cases fewer players will be seeing the flop because of the raise.

As for the flop play, you now have an over pair and a gut shot. You are getting 3-1 and may have the best hand. I don't mind the call, if you raise here and villan pushes you have to fold what may well be the best hand and never get the chance to see if hit your straight.

Chances are if we call the flop we'll faced with a big bet on the turn as well. Even if not, are we confident betting if a spade or even an overcard to our 77 turns, considering that BB could be c-betting with anything from overpair or a set to two overcards? By calling the flop, all we are doing is creating a potentially sticky situation for ourselves on the turn - we should aim to get money in while we are confident we are ahead, and only a 6 or 7 on the turn will make us any more confident in our hand on the turn.

If villain is repopping the flop he is often leading the turn when we call his flop bet anyway.

 

[mrsnake3695]

Don't missunderstand me, I'm not saying you are wrong, just saying there is another way to play this hand. Remember pockets 2s are favored over AK suited. Would you fold AK suited here? Just a thought as to why I don't mind playing pocket pairs even from out of position. Villan did not need a premium hand to make that raise. He is the big stack in the BB seeing several limpers in front of him. He has a prime opportunity to try to take the pot down right here with a raise and he doesn't need a hand for it to work a high percentage of time.

The flop bet was fairly weak, less than a third of the pot and an easy call considering we may have the best hand and have outs. This could easily be a small continuation bet to try to take the pot. I'm not convinced he has a big overpair yet. AK, AQ makes the same bet. I'm not saying a raise here is out of the question, just saying there is potential to be forced out to a big reraise bluff, so I would take the "free" card.

If a big overcard or third card to a flush comes you fold to pressure and move on.

Sometimes in MTTs you have to take some chances to accumulate chips. You can't just play big pairs and big aces the whole time. Sometimes this means playing against the book by playing a small pair or suited connector out of position against a raise.

 

[blankoblanco]

Don't missunderstand me, I'm not saying you are wrong, just saying there is another way to play this hand. Remember pockets 2s are favored over AK suited. Would you fold AK suited here?

There's a whole lot wrong with this logic though. Not to be rude, but I'd explain except I've typed way too much today and I'm playing an MTT, so maybe someone else will.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Don't missunderstand me, I'm not saying you are wrong, just saying there is another way to play this hand. Remember pockets 2s are favored over AK suited. Would you fold AK suited here?

The problem with mid PPs OOP is more often than not you will go to a flop with one or two overcards and have no idea where you stand. This problem is amplified by limp-calling, as you hand the initiative to your opponent, and if AJ3/KQ6/etc flops you will have to fold to the c-bet.

And no, I wouldn't fold AKs here, but I don't really see your point. Would you limp-call with AKs here?

I'm not convinced he has a big overpair yet. AK, AQ makes the same bet. I'm not saying a raise here is out of the question, just saying there is potential to be forced out to a big reraise bluff, so I would take the "free" card.

Of course he doesn't necessarily have a big hand on the flop. Why take the 'free' card when there are 6 cards which really help your hand and many more than 6 cards that scare the bejeezus out of you (let's say any A,K, or spade, without getting into the contentious area of other paint cards)? Why not raise while we are more confident in our hand and not give the scare card a chance to fall?

If a big overcard or third card to a flush comes you fold to pressure and move on.

You seem paranoid about folding the best hand to action on the flop - there's no guarantee you're not folding the best hand by playing it this way either.

Sometimes in MTTs you have to take some chances to accumulate chips. You can't just play big pairs and big aces the whole time. Sometimes this means playing against the book by playing a small pair or suited connector out of position against a raise.

Give me 87s in the CO folded to me or with one weak limper and I'll 'take a chance'. Give me 33 in the BB against a probable button steal and I'll 'take a chance'. Give me a mid PP UTG and I'll fold it. 'Playing against the book' is no excuse for -EV moves like limp-calling here. If I wanted to 'make a move' here I'd raise - simply because a UTG raise will gather respect - there's a chance I will take the pot there and then, and if not I can fold more easily to a reraise than I could fold to a raise having limped.

Nice discussion, by the way. I like threads where I have to think.

 

[mrsnake3695]

Yes I am enjoying the discussion too. Remember that the scenerio was that he had limped then called a raise preflop. I didn't say what I would have done differently if anything, this was our starting point. Having said that I still will take a few more chances with pocket pairs against smallish raises. Especially since BBs raise does not necessarily mean a strong hand. I know the arguments for raising both preflop and on the flop in this hand. I would just prefer to play small ball with it as long as villan is willing to let me. Sure there are many scare cards to come that make me fold when I may be ahead but the real reason we play small pairs isn't thinking that they will hold up (usually), but for the chance you catch the set and can then win a big pot. That's why I call the flop. It's a small bet and esentially gives me a free card to get a monster.

Once the set does hit, I think it's a no-brainer. It's why you play these hands. Get all you chips in when you can.

 

[OneMoreBust]

Preflop: Fold
Flop: You have higher than top pair, what are you waiting for, raise hard, because if 10 J Q K A come on either turn or river, then you cant continue against pressure
Turn: All in... what? He was raising preflop with A6? 66? odds? ALL IN
river: Doesnt matter, you went all in on the turn

 

[robwhufc]

Don't missunderstand me, I'm not saying you are wrong, just saying there is another way to play this hand. Remember pockets 2s are favored over AK suited. Would you fold AK suited here? Just a thought as to why I don't mind playing pocket pairs even from out of position. Villan did not need a premium hand to make that raise. He is the big stack in the BB seeing several limpers in front of him. He has a prime opportunity to try to take the pot down right here with a raise and he doesn't need a hand for it to work a high percentage of time.

I'm not saying you're wrong either and I know you wouldn't have played the subsequent streets the same, but assuming the hand did pan out as you said, how would you play pre-flop? You've called UTG with 77 (I agree with you that sometimes the "tournament breaker" hands are the hands you play "wrong" and hit the flop hard, totally disguised to your opponents), then a couple limp in (small pairs, suited cards, connecters, King Ten etc etc), then BB as you said sees the limpers and sticks in a 3xraise with anything - what do you do then? you've got 300 to call, which (as in the example hand) you probably think is OK to call, as you could (hopefully!) be in the lead - but there are still 2 players to act, what if one of those re-raises again? Now you're 400 chips down, know you're up against a better hand than you, and really have got to lay it down now. Discuss!

 

[Schatzdog]

PF: I'm folding this unless the table is exceptionally passive and weak.
Flop: This is a good flop for you, although not exceptional because of the draw potential. You MUST bet this big. Show strength and define where you are at. If you get played back at you have a nice perspective from which to make an intelligent decision.
Turn: Get all your boys in the middle if your still proceeding with the hand or at least bet the pot.

 

[tenbob]

Just wondering how this hand finished Tim ?

 

[t1riel]

I called the 500 on the river. He had . He beat me with the low end straight.

 

[joosebuck]

tim and whatever that chick's name is, stop being bitches. that was the most genuine thing rob could've said critically about you. stop being poor sports and thank rob for being a good enough friend to say it nicely & with <3

 

[t1riel]

tim and whatever that chick's name is, stop being bitches. that was the most genuine thing rob could've said critically about you. stop being poor sports and thank rob for being a good enough friend to say it nicely & with <3

I didn't say anything to Rob.

 

[joosebuck]

Thanks.

you knew he meant well. stop being a girl dude. everyone has shit they can work on

 

[t1riel]

I ddin't take it personally. I was being sarcastic kiddingly. The reason I make these kind of threads is to "rihgt my wrongs" if you will. Yeah, I thought one comment Rob made was a little much, but I was angry about it. I took it lightly.

 

[joosebuck]

if you say so dude