Transgenders in Women/Girls Sports ?

[Bev]

As for assigning locker rooms - this is a riddle I have no solution for yet, perhaps again assigning a "gender fluid" locker room??

It is very difficult to accommodate and I think it would need some serious discussion and thought on "the locker room" type issues as this can certainly put anyone in an unnecessarily awkward position.

To prevent any sexual harassment incidents as well because it only takes ONE of these incidents to cause an outrageous debacle between parents and their kids and the schools itself.

You could be the most open minded gal or guy , but I mean for lack of better description here, seeing someone else's gizmo is awkward.

wow-you are the first one to bring up the issue of locker rooms/change rooms !!!
Somehow I don't think the parents in this particular feud would go for a co-ed track and field - good try though.

 

[VisionNutz]

wow-you are the first one to bring up the issue of locker rooms/change rooms !!!
Somehow I don't think the parents in this particular feud would go for a co-ed track and field - good try though.

What makes you conclude that the parents would not go for a co-ed race category? Not co-ed locker rooms just the race category - the locker rooms is still of course, its own separate issue.

I do see your point though in co-ed track and field I think there would again, still be a significant advantage to their male counterparts based off the genetic predisposition for males to be more physiologically advantageous in sports/fitness. (I'm not saying women are weak, I know about 34 women that could ship my ass in a fight lol!)But, males do have the advantage. If you take a look at marathon run times for example, compare the ELITE MEN times to the ELITE WOMEN times and you will see a huge disparity in time difference for first place and so on.

So you take this information and apply it to a transitioning (m to f) athlete. This becomes very controversial even if the athlete chooses to supplement with estrogen hormones to dial down the aggression. It just becomes a scientific mess! Now, the argument is "woah lets not get carried away they are just kids" - Okay, fair point fair point nice hand nice hand.... BUT - what happens when those "just kids" grow up and decide to pursue a career in athletics whereby monetary gain and sponsors and endorsements now becomes concepts that need to be addressed???? So it has to be a solution that can apply to "all levels" of competition right?

Just like in poker - if a rule changes at micro stakes - the rule then applies to each other level of game play (medium, low, high etcc) ( had to bring in a poker comparison sorry)

So the only two solutions I see if creating ​

1. A Gender Fuid race category/class
2. A CO-ED category

Also, I am not the first to bring up locker room dilemmas for Trans/Gender Fluid. As you may recall from a previous post, this is one of those ethical dilemmas that causes somewhat of a loop discussion and its all over youtube and other online discussions about locker room/bathroom assignment for gender fluid people.Its not that I have a problem with it, most kids are smart and just want to get along to go along. BUT (and its a big but) it only takes one serious sexual harassment incident to wreak havoc on the school systems and furthermore lawsuits which is king in U.S.


What you think?

 

[VisionNutz]

cguru: I have to make a correction - in fact marathon and long distance racing is one of the areas in which women are more efficient and can sometimes out run their male counterpartscguru:​

Their bodies are more efficient during the glycogen conversion process according to this article which you may enjoy give a quick read

https://work.chron.com/physiological-differences-between-male-female-athletes-20627.html

But if you look at other areas, swimming, sprinting, lifting, 5k run, 10km run etc - you will see the disparity in finishing times that I refer too :stupido:

 

[Bev]

What makes you conclude that the parents would not go for a co-ed race category? Not co-ed locker rooms just the race category - the locker rooms is still of course, its own separate issue.

I do see your point though in co-ed track and field I think there would again, still be a significant advantage to their male counterparts based off the genetic predisposition for males to be more physiologically advantageous in sports/fitness. (I'm not saying women are weak, I know about 34 women that could ship my ass in a fight lol!)But, males do have the advantage. If you take a look at marathon run times for example, compare the ELITE MEN times to the ELITE WOMEN times and you will see a huge disparity in time difference for first place and so on.

So you take this information and apply it to a transitioning (m to f) athlete. This becomes very controversial even if the athlete chooses to supplement with estrogen hormones to dial down the aggression. It just becomes a scientific mess! Now, the argument is "woah lets not get carried away they are just kids" - Okay, fair point fair point nice hand nice hand.... BUT - what happens when those "just kids" grow up and decide to pursue a career in athletics whereby monetary gain and sponsors and endorsements now becomes concepts that need to be addressed???? So it has to be a solution that can apply to "all levels" of competition right?

Just like in poker - if a rule changes at micro stakes - the rule then applies to each other level of game play (medium, low, high etcc) ( had to bring in a poker comparison sorry)

So the only two solutions I see if creating ​

1. A Gender Fuid race category/class
2. A CO-ED category

Also, I am not the first to bring up locker room dilemmas for Trans/Gender Fluid. As you may recall from a previous post, this is one of those ethical dilemmas that causes somewhat of a loop discussion and its all over youtube and other online discussions about locker room/bathroom assignment for gender fluid people.Its not that I have a problem with it, most kids are smart and just want to get along to go along. BUT (and its a big but) it only takes one serious sexual harassment incident to wreak havoc on the school systems and furthermore lawsuits which is king in U.S.


What you think?

In this particular fight - the parents are upset with the trans beating their girls , so you would think it is a simple solution to create separate categories for them , even age wise
I do remember they had age categories when I did track and field in school !

LOL - yes - you are good
cbrig6

New Member


Join Date: Jul 2018

Game: hold em

Posts: 16




There is certainly a gender advantage for strength you would think. Even at a kids competition level they still play to win and i feel they should be able to play but just give them a separate locker room and they play on the sex they were born toos team.

 

[Bev]

cguru: I have to make a correction - in fact marathon and long distance racing is one of the areas in which women are more efficient and can sometimes out run their male counterpartscguru:​

Their bodies are more efficient during the glycogen conversion process according to this article which you may enjoy give a quick read

https://work.chron.com/physiological-differences-between-male-female-athletes-20627.html

But if you look at other areas, swimming, sprinting, lifting, 5k run, 10km run etc - you will see the disparity in finishing times that I refer too :stupido:

Thank-you , it was interesting . Yes I agree women have some advantages over men , but in this issue it was for the track and field events to which the transgenders were beating the girls in the shorter races . ( not the long distance endurance )

 

[Roger1960]

Fallon Fox is a transgender female MMA fighter, very unfair and horrible to watch. It is just like watching a man beat up women, bones are more dense and the advantage of being a man with all that testosterone has formed the body already into mostly male attributes. Fox has to have a certain level of hormones to balance the body.
Still hard to watch, I had only seen a few clips of a couple fights to know I didn't want to watch anymore.

With track and field there of course men that are physically superior to other men. No way you could take a transgender and have her/him compete against women no matter how the regulate it.

 

[Bev]

Fallon Fox is a transgender female MMA fighter, very unfair and horrible to watch. It is just like watching a man beat up women, bones are more dense and the advantage of being a man with all that testosterone has formed the body already into mostly male attributes. Fox has to have a certain level of hormones to balance the body.
Still hard to watch, I had only seen a few clips of a couple fights to know I didn't want to watch anymore.

Exactly - so the need for separate categories is needed in fighting to ! Don't forget to vote at the top of the thread

With track and field there of course men that are physically superior to other men. No way you could take a transgender and have her/him compete against women no matter how the regulate it.

I agree . Don't forget to vote

 

[johnny tigre]

I dont think it will be fair to "real" women if transgenders are allowed to compete in womens sports. Even if they had sex change, transgenders are still biologically males and have the strength and physical advantage over natural women.

 

[Bev]

I dont think it will be fair to "real" women if transgenders are allowed to compete in womens sports. Even if they had sex change, transgenders are still biologically males and have the strength and physical advantage over natural women.

Exactly . Too many physical differences that don't go away just because they have surgery !

 

[leogetz79]

i dont agree at all. because in reality they are man. it doesnt matter if they want to be woman. all their genes and dnas everything are man. so they will have advantage in every way over the real girls. here in brasil they have a volleyball player that its man and plays at the womens championship. they already allowed him to play.

 

[NinjaHands]

Exactly . Too many physical differences that don't go away just because they have surgery !

Yeah, it's also a problem when women take steroids/any kind of performance enhancement, because it is possible to get off the gear and still keep it. Which means they'll test clean, but really they aren't natural athletes.

Women sports needs to be women. That's the main point. Can't have these lame bastards pretending to be women so that they can win some trophies. What's the point then?

Also, can't have some of these creeps in the women's room. I don't care what they say, if a person with a dick walks into the girls room when my daughter is in there, they are getting fu$#*d up.

 

[Max Diver]

A woman is a woman and a man is a man. A true family is with a man and a woman.
Other things some people say and do I´m not agree.
Put a man to fight boxing vs women. Not fair. He will probably win.
If a person wants to change it their body male to female, or otherwise it is their problem and decision.
But it should not be on Sports competitions. If they let some in soon will be a big mess and problems everywhere.

 

[Bev]

Yeah, it's also a problem when women take steroids/any kind of performance enhancement, because it is possible to get off the gear and still keep it. Which means they'll test clean, but really they aren't natural athletes.

Women sports needs to be women. That's the main point. Can't have these lame bastards pretending to be women so that they can win some trophies. What's the point then?

Also, can't have some of these creeps in the women's room. I don't care what they say, if a person with a dick walks into the girls room when my daughter is in there, they are getting fu$#*d up.

Yup I hear ya! BTW - did you hear about the transgenders sharing dorms with girls ? (in the states )

i dont agree at all. because in reality they are man. it doesnt matter if they want to be woman. all their genes and dnas everything are man. so they will have advantage in every way over the real girls. here in brasil they have a volleyball player that its man and plays at the womens championship. they already allowed him to play.

Exactly - I agree with you to.
Don't forget to vote : Thanks

A woman is a woman and a man is a man. A true family is with a man and a woman.
Other things some people say and do I´m not agree.
Put a man to fight boxing vs women. Not fair. He will probably win.
If a person wants to change it their body male to female, or otherwise it is their problem and decision.
But it should not be on Sports competitions. If they let some in soon will be a big mess and problems everywhere.

Yes and this is what they are trying to push - their agenda !

 

[clubsta]

How funny, I was just listening to this podcast today on a drive:
https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/dutee

About gender testing and sports and historical moments of concern and confusion.

Fun (but not really fun at all) fact:
-They used to test gender for sports by having males & females undress and check out their genitals etc. Terribly invasive.
-Then they figured out chromosome testing, which eventually proved inconclusive as it turns out quite a few people have atypical chromosomes (XY but anatomically and hormonally a female, XXXX, XXY, and many things outside the "norm")
-Then they moved towards hormone level testing as that proved more accurate than chromosome testing

However, it's still not quite perfect with hormone testing as they're trying to draw a solid, clear "line" between "male" and "female" when the reality is:
There is never a clear line, things are too complex and clearly not black and white especially if you do your research and explore the topic further, and despite our efforts of trying to make things "fair" by splitting up sports by gender, it's never going to be entirely fair when you pit people against each other in competition as there are always going to be countless factors that change advantages and disadvantages from one person to the next, one team to the next.

Another great point made was that, e.g. in Dutee Chand's case, she grew up poor and couldn't even get shoes to train in running, not to mention lack of trainers and resources and much more stress to her body being in less stable conditions of life. So she had major disadvantages compared to others.

My conclusions:
- It's ridiculous to tell someone they can't participate in a sport because they don't exactly fit into one of the two limited categorical options (male or female)
- If we're going to be concerned about what's "fair," in the overall scheme of things and the bigger picture, I'm quite certain that transgender individuals don't have it "FAIR" in this world.
- I think it's important to focus more on the things we can change, like trying to get low income children more financial support for their growth, and creating a healthier environment for those who tend to be more disenfranchised than others, and NOT by excluding someone from something they might enjoy and excel in just because they were born this way or that way. Frankly, I think there are way more important things for us to get our panties in a twist about.

Like uh, world hunger, bullying on large and small scales, the disappearing bees, the fact that due to the Electoral College & gerrymandering and other evils, all American votes are not exactly equal.

Get off the transgenders' backs and pick something more important to focus your energies on! I promise you that they likely don't want to be in the position they're in. Have a little empathy and realize that the people who might be beat by them in a competition, overall in the grand scheme of their lives, are probably going to have it a lot better anyway.

One important thing to note about transgenders: statistically, they won't be "choosing" which gender they identify with specifically so they can get more of an advantage in sports. They're mostly going to chose which gender they LOOK most like, out of pure defense so that they are less likely to get beat up or killed by someone who's disturbed by the fact that they aren't "normal," which is actually a common occurrence in the transgender world. Their sole purpose in life is NOT to cheat in sports. It's to survive and have some sort of place to belong safely. Don't place malicious intentions where they don't exist.

T

 

[Bev]

How funny, I was just listening to this podcast today on a drive:
https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/dutee

About gender testing and sports and historical moments of concern and confusion.

Fun (but not really fun at all) fact:
-They used to test gender for sports by having males & females undress and check out their genitals etc. Terribly invasive.
-Then they figured out chromosome testing, which eventually proved inconclusive as it turns out quite a few people have atypical chromosomes (XY but anatomically and hormonally a female, XXXX, XXY, and many things outside the "norm")
-Then they moved towards hormone level testing as that proved more accurate than chromosome testing

However, it's still not quite perfect with hormone testing as they're trying to draw a solid, clear "line" between "male" and "female" when the reality is:
There is never a clear line, things are too complex and clearly not black and white especially if you do your research and explore the topic further, and despite our efforts of trying to make things "fair" by splitting up sports by gender, it's never going to be entirely fair when you pit people against each other in competition as there are always going to be countless factors that change advantages and disadvantages from one person to the next, one team to the next.


Yes, and so boys should be competing against boys and girls against girls , and transgenders against transgenders - is what I understand from your statement .

Another great point made was that, e.g. in Dutee Chand's case, she grew up poor and couldn't even get shoes to train in running, not to mention lack of trainers and resources and much more stress to her body being in less stable conditions of life. So she had major disadvantages compared to others.

My conclusions:
- It's ridiculous to tell someone they can't participate in a sport because they don't exactly fit into one of the two limited categorical options (male or female)
- If we're going to be concerned about what's "fair," in the overall scheme of things and the bigger picture, I'm quite certain that transgender individuals don't have it "FAIR" in this world.
- I think it's important to focus more on the things we can change, like trying to get low income children more financial support for their growth, and creating a healthier environment for those who tend to be more disenfranchised than others, and NOT by excluding someone from something they might enjoy and excel in just because they were born this way or that way. Frankly, I think there are way more important things for us to get our panties in a twist about.

Like uh, world hunger, bullying on large and small scales, the disappearing bees, the fact that due to the Electoral College & gerrymandering and other evils, all American votes are not exactly equal.
Like uh, I am not the one on their backs , uh the parents of the girls that are competing against these trans genders are.
"they seem to be upsetting parents of teens this time in Connecticut ! "

Get off the transgenders' backs and pick something more important to focus your energies on! I promise you that they likely don't want to be in the position they're in. Have a little empathy and realize that the people who might be beat by them in a competition, overall in the grand scheme of their lives, are probably are going to have it a lot better anyway.

T

So, if you want to start a thread about uh world hunger or bullying- by all means , or if you would like the article on the parents upset in Connecticut - you could console them that their problem with this is peanuts ?

 

[Debi]

How funny, I was just listening to this podcast today on a drive:
https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/dutee

About gender testing and sports and historical moments of concern and confusion.

Fun (but not really fun at all) fact:
-They used to test gender for sports by having males & females undress and check out their genitals etc. Terribly invasive.
-Then they figured out chromosome testing, which eventually proved inconclusive as it turns out quite a few people have atypical chromosomes (XY but anatomically and hormonally a female, XXXX, XXY, and many things outside the "norm")
-Then they moved towards hormone level testing as that proved more accurate than chromosome testing

However, it's still not quite perfect with hormone testing as they're trying to draw a solid, clear "line" between "male" and "female" when the reality is:
There is never a clear line, things are too complex and clearly not black and white especially if you do your research and explore the topic further, and despite our efforts of trying to make things "fair" by splitting up sports by gender, it's never going to be entirely fair when you pit people against each other in competition as there are always going to be countless factors that change advantages and disadvantages from one person to the next, one team to the next.

Another great point made was that, e.g. in Dutee Chand's case, she grew up poor and couldn't even get shoes to train in running, not to mention lack of trainers and resources and much more stress to her body being in less stable conditions of life. So she had major disadvantages compared to others.

My conclusions:
- It's ridiculous to tell someone they can't participate in a sport because they don't exactly fit into one of the two limited categorical options (male or female)
- If we're going to be concerned about what's "fair," in the overall scheme of things and the bigger picture, I'm quite certain that transgender individuals don't have it "FAIR" in this world.
- I think it's important to focus more on the things we can change, like trying to get low income children more financial support for their growth, and creating a healthier environment for those who tend to be more disenfranchised than others, and NOT by excluding someone from something they might enjoy and excel in just because they were born this way or that way. Frankly, I think there are way more important things for us to get our panties in a twist about.

Like uh, world hunger, bullying on large and small scales, the disappearing bees, the fact that due to the Electoral College & gerrymandering and other evils, all American votes are not exactly equal.

Get off the transgenders' backs and pick something more important to focus your energies on! I promise you that they likely don't want to be in the position they're in. Have a little empathy and realize that the people who might be beat by them in a competition, overall in the grand scheme of their lives, are probably going to have it a lot better anyway.

One important thing to note about transgenders: statistically, they won't be "choosing" which gender they identify with specifically so they can get more of an advantage in sports. They're mostly going to chose which gender they LOOK most like, out of pure defense so that they are less likely to get beat up or killed by someone who's disturbed by the fact that they aren't "normal," which is actually a common occurrence in the transgender world. Their sole purpose in life is NOT to cheat in sports. It's to survive and have some sort of place to belong safely. Don't place malicious intentions where they don't exist.

T

Thanks for being a voice of reason in this thread.

 

[clubsta]

So, if you want to start a thread about uh world hunger or bullying- by all means , or if you would like the article on the parents upset in Connecticut - you could console them that their problem with this is peanuts ?

Sorry we disagree, but yes that's what I feel. I think their problem is peanuts, not even compared to world hunger, but compared to the topic at hand: what those transgender kids are going through and will have to go through for the rest of their lives.

It's like saying:
Man, my Kid-1 won't get cake today because it went to this Kid-2 "unfairly".
Meanwhile Kid-2 also doesn't get vegetables, water, and gets beat up about once a week just for being born.

You can't look at fairness in a vacuum, you have to look at the bigger picture if you're going to really address social issues in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Bev]

Sorry we disagree, but yes that's what I feel. I think their problem is peanuts, not even compared to world hunger, but compared to what those transgender kids are going through and will have to go through for the rest of their lives.

It's like saying:
Man, my Kid-1 won't get cake today because it went to this Kid-2 "unfairly".
Meanwhile Kid-2 also doesn't get vegetables, water, and gets beat up about once a week just for being born.
So, what can you do to feed all those kids ?

You can't look at fairness in a vacuum, you have to look at the bigger picture if you're gong to really address social issues in the grand scheme of things.

I have a feeling that the transgenders are doing just fine. They are managing to push their agenda on everyone .
So, I gather your vote is you think the transgenders should compete with girls ?
As far as world hunger goes , I was lucky to keep food on the table for my kids , let alone feed the world.

 

[clubsta]

I have a feeling that the transgenders are doing just fine. They are managing to push their agenda on everyone .
So, I gather your vote is you think the transgenders should compete with girls ?
As far as world hunger goes , I was lucky to keep food on the table for my kids , let alone feed the world.

Actually, the vast majority of people who are, as you would say "push[ing] their agenda on everyone" regarding transgender politics, are not transgenders. It's mainly cis-genders who are trying to make the world a better place for people who are born outside of the prescribed norm and facing deadly hardships due to it. Possibly because they've had a friend who was transgender who got beat up or killed, or they keep up with news about the world around them and who is hurting and needs help.

The majority of transgender people are usually keeping a much lower profile as the world is statistically more dangerous for them. And no, they're not doing just fine.

Here are a few articles to get you started about their reality, and if you'd like to really learn more about the realistic state of affairs for them, just google violence stats on transgenders and you'll get a ton of information.

https://www.glaad.org/publications/transgendervictimsofcrime

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc...mate-partner-violence-trans-community-n837161

https://www.hrc.org/resources/violence-against-the-transgender-community-in-2018

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...iscrimination-prejudice-attacks-a8061456.html

I can't force you to read up and inform yourself, but I can assure you there are many statistics showing that it is in no way safe to be transgender in this world.

 

[clubsta]

I have a feeling that the transgenders are doing just fine. They are managing to push their agenda on everyone .
So, I gather your vote is you think the transgenders should compete with girls ?
As far as world hunger goes , I was lucky to keep food on the table for my kids , let alone feed the world.

As for my vote, yeah they should be allowed to compete.

However, for a healthier society I heavily urge schools to choose team sports more over individual sports. This helps lessen more "fairness" issues, and also teaches kids to be much better acclimated to productively working together and supporting each other (which leads to a multitude of benefits in development) as opposed to destructively pushing each other down.

 

[clubsta]

Thanks for being a voice of reason in this thread.

Thanks Dakota Happy to try when the trying gets rough.

 

[Bev]

As for my vote, yeah they should be allowed to compete.

However, for a healthier society I heavily urge schools to choose team sports more over individual sports. This helps lessen more "fairness" issues, and also teaches kids to be much better acclimated to productively working together and supporting each other (which leads to a multitude of benefits in development) as opposed to destructively pushing each other down.

Yes I checked out your links and I can see there are growing stats on their deaths. We have growing stats for the natives being killed in both Canada and the US. You can start gathering stats on even black, white people but that is not what this thread was about. I do appreciate your concern for all the other issues you have mentioned though and I feel for all of them.


I had read the article on the issue with these teens and I just felt that it is unfair.
They don't have co-ed teams for football, or hockey, or any sport that I know of.
So, why are they letting transgenders ( stronger and more physically developed then girls ) compete against girls in track and field ?
If the schools only had team sports , then there would be a lot of athletes left out of the track and field , swimming and other individual sports that we have today.
It would just be easier IMHO to have them in their own groups and ages as well.

this was the article I read , which was the base of this thread .
https://usatodayhss.com/2018/connecticut-parents-ban-transgender-track-athletes

 

[clubsta]

Yes I checked out your links and I can see there are growing stats on their deaths. We have growing stats for the natives being killed in both Canada and the US. You can start gathering stats on even black, white people but that is not what this thread was about. I do appreciate your concern for all the other issues you have mentioned though and I feel for all of them.
I had read the article on the issue with these teens and I just felt that it is unfair.
They don't have co-ed teams for football, or hockey, or any sport that I know of.
So, why are they letting transgenders ( stronger and more physically developed then girls ) compete against girls in track and field ?
If the schools only had team sports , then there would be a lot of athletes left out of the track and field , swimming and other individual sports that we have today.
It would just be easier IMHO to have them in their own groups and ages as well.

this was the article I read , which was the base of this thread .
https://usatodayhss.com/2018/connecticut-parents-ban-transgender-track-athletes

I guess one of my points is that we try to separate things so much in our society (even our practice of medicine--we look at our bodies as "parts" and don't look at them enough as a whole where everything is interconnected and effects everything, and a lot of doctors can't put the entire puzzle together enough). On this topic, in a vacuum we could say it's not fair, but I believe a good way of trying to work on and repairing major social issues it to step back and look at everything else that is going on in relation to it and try to find the roots of problems instead of merely treating symptoms.

If you really want to get into it, I think what we're seeing here are symptoms of a deeper problem: that we've divided and defined gender and gender roles so heavily and strictly in our society that people don't feel they can be truly themselves in those confines. If that part of our society wasn't so deeply unhealthy and rigid, we might not even have the issue of people not identifying with their gender, or much less of it.

Then there's the issue of purely competitive individual sports. There are always going to be advantages and disadvantages on an individual basis. Wealthier upbringing with more time and resources spent on training; more or less supportive environments; and even the spectrum of body and genetic differences between just "biological females" is vast enough--longer or shorter legs, hip structure, feet structure, cardiovascular strength, anything and everything.

If one really wants a more "fair" environment, they can create a structure that fosters it, and place more importance on cooperative teams that can more easily even out these differences and create an even better, diverse, and strong result. The sum is greater than its parts. Not to mention that cooperation and working together is a much more valuable tool in the real world than fighting on one's own.

Also, there are many ways, especially in schools, to shift these popular individual sports into team sports, e.g. a running team, swimming teams, versus individual competition. And there are ways to promote competition within one's self instead of between each other. Another issue is that our society is so obsessed with comparisons, which is tragic because we're all so vastly difference and have completely different strengths and weaknesses, and we should be looking to work together with our different strengths to create more productive results rather than trying to "beat" each other at what might be inherently easier for another person.

Essentially what I think is happening here is: "the game isn't fair." My answer is not to restrict and suppress the players, but to work on fixing the game itself. Go deeper. The problem is usually more complicated than what's happening at the surface.

Also, thanks for talking with me about it all. I know it is a tough subject and I really value your thoughts on it.

T

 

[Bev]

I guess one of my points is that we try to separate things so much in our society (even our practice of medicine--we look at our bodies as "parts" and don't look at them enough as a whole where everything is interconnected and effects everything, and a lot of doctors can't put the entire puzzle together enough). On this topic, in a vacuum we could say it's not fair, but I believe a good way of trying to work on and repairing major social issues it to step back and look at everything else that is going on in relation to it and try to find the roots of problems instead of merely treating symptoms.

If you really want to get into it, I think what we're seeing here are symptoms of a deeper problem: that we've divided and defined gender and gender roles so heavily and strictly in our society that people don't feel they can be truly themselves in those confines. If that part of our society wasn't so deeply unhealthy and rigid, we might not even have the issue of people not identifying with their gender, or much less of it.

Then there's the issue of purely competitive individual sports. There are always going to be advantages and disadvantages on an individual basis. Wealthier upbringing with more time and resources spent on training; more or less supportive environments; and even the spectrum of body and genetic differences between just "biological females" is vast enough--longer or shorter legs, hip structure, feet structure, cardiovascular strength, anything and everything.

If one really wants a more "fair" environment, they can create a structure that fosters it, and place more importance on cooperative teams that can more easily even out these differences and create an even better, diverse, and strong result. The sum is greater than its parts. Not to mention that cooperation and working together is a much more valuable tool in the real world than fighting on one's own.

Also, there are many ways, especially in schools, to shift these popular individual sports into team sports, e.g. a running team, swimming teams, versus individual competition. And there are ways to promote competition within one's self instead of between each other. Another issue is that our society is so obsessed with comparisons, which is tragic because we're all so vastly difference and have completely different strengths and weaknesses, and we should be looking to work together with our different strengths to create more productive results rather than trying to "beat" each other at what might be inherently easier for another person.

Essentially what I think is happening here is: "the game isn't fair." My answer is not to restrict and suppress the players, but to work on fixing the game itself. Go deeper. The problem is usually more complicated than what's happening at the surface.

Also, thanks for talking with me about it all. I know it is a tough subject and I really value your thoughts on it.

T

You have brought up a lot of valid points. From what I can see it will take a long time to change the way the schools do sports in the phys ed classes. To stop all forms of track and field may take awhile as I can see that it would cause an uproar. there are too many of these "individual" sports that really aren't meant as team sports - from running , to skiing - to swimming. They would now need to change the structure all the way to the olympic levels if they were to make these into team sports.
This is just not going to happen overnite. How long did it take for the Disabled sports to have their own ? Seriously , those disabled athletes are way better at their sport then I will ever be !!

 

[clubsta]

You have brought up a lot of valid points. From what I can see it will take a long time to change the way the schools do sports in the phys ed classes. To stop all forms of track and field may take awhile as I can see that it would cause an uproar. there are too many of these "individual" sports that really aren't meant as team sports - from running , to skiing - to swimming. They would now need to change the structure all the way to the olympic levels if they were to make these into team sports.
This is just not going to happen overnite. How long did it take for the Disabled sports to have their own ? Seriously , those disabled athletes are way better at their sport then I will ever be !!

Haha yeah there are some people with extreme personal setbacks that beat my butt any day.

Yeah as we go deeper down to the root of problems, it gets more difficult to change and takes quite a while--and I'm so pleased with the many forms of progress we've made--from women voting, to more art classes in schools, and even to acknowledging the horrible pressure placed on men to be these unemotional machines. Big stuff, and people have to have big ideas to change it!

Though the olympics at least have "teams" of sorts with countries etc., and you do see a lot of teammates supporting and encouraging each other even though at the end of it only one of them might get an actual medal. However it's great when people start challenging our societal habits and norms and ask, hey, do individuals really need medals and do we really want to foster that type of competition, or could we all be happier (and even more productive as a whole) with team medals? What are we really doing, why are we doing it, and what are we really teaching people?

And the most important thing to remember is: we can change it, and we have changed it before.

Onward and upward!