5TR8 FLUSH
Legend
Loyaler
I read a bit today and liked an example David Sklansky uses in his book, "The Theory Of Poker". The example is, your dealt 10hJh and your opponent gets dealt QK off suit. Flop is Qh 8c 7h, you check, opponent bets, you call. Turn is Ad, you bet (controlling the pot) and representing Aces, opponent calls. By opponent calling and not raising, your earning money and can get a cheap look at the river and might hit your flush or straight draw. As part of the example, the author mentions if opponent knew what you had, they would raise an amount that would be to much to see the river. If opponent folds, you got them to fold the better hand and gain with worst hand. The is giving example of "correct" play.
What I understood from this example is a smart way to semi-bluff with a hand that has value with many outs on the river while representing top pair. Also keeping the pot were your comfortable to see the river at a price that you set.
Reflecting back on the hand I shared previously with the Jc3c, and opponent having two pair. Since the opponent checked on turn and river, the correct play would have been to check on the river. Also from this example, I would have earned the 1600 I shoved with by folding. I think I heard this quote from the movie "Rounders", "you can't lose what you don't put on the table.
What I understood from this example is a smart way to semi-bluff with a hand that has value with many outs on the river while representing top pair. Also keeping the pot were your comfortable to see the river at a price that you set.
Reflecting back on the hand I shared previously with the Jc3c, and opponent having two pair. Since the opponent checked on turn and river, the correct play would have been to check on the river. Also from this example, I would have earned the 1600 I shoved with by folding. I think I heard this quote from the movie "Rounders", "you can't lose what you don't put on the table.
S
samsmoot
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I think you may be focusing on tactics rather than overall strategy.
Let me replay that same sequence of events, from the same position, and tell you how I would expect it to go.
So from that position I would not be playing J-10S. I'm not going to want to go home early by getting beat by a better flush, for one thing. But I WOULD play A-KS, and I would play it hard from the flop onwards. The reason why is that my expectation is that my oppnent has top pair, and the rough odds of me winning by the river are 50/50, due to the two overcards, flush draw, and backdoor straight draw. Therefore I have a 50% chance of winning a showdown PLUS whatever % the fold equity might be, which, given the heavy betting, might be quite a high %.
I am NOT going to put most of my chips into a pot, only to have to fold on the river when I don't hit. I'd rather bully my opponent out of the pot, win a massive pot, or go home in style. Many tourney hands are a 50/50, so you have to play them sometimes, and A-KS all-in on a flop like that is about the same play as pocket Jacks v AK pre-flop.
Fair enough. Worth a try. I'd rather be representing an overpair or a set or two pair on the flop myself, rather than the Ace on the turn. J-10s, for me, from that position, would be too tricky to play.confidently. If you are able to negotiate your way through 'till the river at a cheap price, then no sweat. I like to keep it simple.
And the harder you try, the luckier you get.
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hobojim1247
Legend
Platinum Level
5TR8 FLUSH,
Where are you in Az. I am midway between Kingman and Laughlin. I started playing in 2006 when I retired, I have read many books by many authors but the ones that helped me most was by Dan Harrington and recently Jonathon Little. If you want a lot of free advice about plugging leaks, look on YouTube for John Little.
I did that 2 years ago and subsequently joined his teaching site.
I Have improved my game immensely by plugging leaks.
Where are you in Az. I am midway between Kingman and Laughlin. I started playing in 2006 when I retired, I have read many books by many authors but the ones that helped me most was by Dan Harrington and recently Jonathon Little. If you want a lot of free advice about plugging leaks, look on YouTube for John Little.
I did that 2 years ago and subsequently joined his teaching site.
I Have improved my game immensely by plugging leaks.
5TR8 FLUSH
Legend
Loyaler
Thanks Sam for always having something share. It's great to read about how others think, specially from people with experience.
Hey Jim, yea, I live in Tucson, AZ. I see you often running deep in the freerolls, enjoy playing at the table with you many others.
Thanks for sharing Jim. When I was looking for books Dan Harrington's books popped up as well. I'll check out YouTube soon and see what I can learn.
Hey Jim, yea, I live in Tucson, AZ. I see you often running deep in the freerolls, enjoy playing at the table with you many others.
Thanks for sharing Jim. When I was looking for books Dan Harrington's books popped up as well. I'll check out YouTube soon and see what I can learn.
5TR8 FLUSH
Legend
Loyaler
I've played in a few more live tourney's since my last post (have not cashed and the 16th place finish is still my best game so far), and am feeling a lot more comfortable at the tables. Unfortunately I am yet to cash, but I remember reading that it took Sam (I think) three months or so to cash in a live tournament. I'm getting better at focusing on how much the blinds are, how much more or less the pot is (I was betting to small before), and the position I'm in. Overall still enjoying the experience and thinking about playing a cash game before my text live tournament (most likely next Wednesday). At the casino I go, they give 1000 extra chips for every hour you play before the tournament. Any live cash game advice or stories would be awesome. This will be my first cash game.
So I have two question, one come's from a strategy Dneg uses, and other comes from reading "The Theory of Poker". I curious to see you opinion on these two topics.
Re-buy's - I been following Dneg's Vlog this year and have noticed that for the Re-buy tournaments, he plays loose aggressive on first bullet, and then re-buys if he busts. At the casino I go play live tournaments, they offer re-buys for first 3 levels. I don't re-buy, if I bust before the third level, I just go home. Do you guys think it's a good idea or strategy to play loose aggressive and have a re-buy to back you up?
Ante's - In the book, David writes about ante's. He says, when the ante is low play tight and when it's high play loose. Mostly what he is referring to is stealing blinds. He mentions that if your on a tight table, it's possible that you can steal blinds 60% of the time and still make a profit. Do you guys agree? Do you thinks its a good idea to loosen up when the ante's are high?
In conclusion, I just wanna share my second hand I had in tonight live tournament. I think I played it well, but could have probably shoved and got paid. It was my first time playing against this player so I had no idea how he played. After tonight, I noticed he doesn't fold and will usually pay when he should fold.
I get dealt Qd5d on SM, and limp in to see the flop.
Kd 10d 5d - I flopped second best possible hand, there's four player in, we all check.
Turn is 9x - I check, BB bets 700 again, everyone folds, I call.
River 6x - I check, BB bets 700 and I raised to 2500, BB calls.
BB had Q5o, so he made a straight on turn, I had flush.
So I have two question, one come's from a strategy Dneg uses, and other comes from reading "The Theory of Poker". I curious to see you opinion on these two topics.
Re-buy's - I been following Dneg's Vlog this year and have noticed that for the Re-buy tournaments, he plays loose aggressive on first bullet, and then re-buys if he busts. At the casino I go play live tournaments, they offer re-buys for first 3 levels. I don't re-buy, if I bust before the third level, I just go home. Do you guys think it's a good idea or strategy to play loose aggressive and have a re-buy to back you up?
Ante's - In the book, David writes about ante's. He says, when the ante is low play tight and when it's high play loose. Mostly what he is referring to is stealing blinds. He mentions that if your on a tight table, it's possible that you can steal blinds 60% of the time and still make a profit. Do you guys agree? Do you thinks its a good idea to loosen up when the ante's are high?
In conclusion, I just wanna share my second hand I had in tonight live tournament. I think I played it well, but could have probably shoved and got paid. It was my first time playing against this player so I had no idea how he played. After tonight, I noticed he doesn't fold and will usually pay when he should fold.
I get dealt Qd5d on SM, and limp in to see the flop.
Kd 10d 5d - I flopped second best possible hand, there's four player in, we all check.
Turn is 9x - I check, BB bets 700 again, everyone folds, I call.
River 6x - I check, BB bets 700 and I raised to 2500, BB calls.
BB had Q5o, so he made a straight on turn, I had flush.
5TR8 FLUSH
Legend
Loyaler
I wanted to correct this. River was Jx, this is when opponent made a straight, but I had him beat on flop with flush, he had no diamonds.
I notice I play a lot of hands in live tournaments, and still learning how to use position. I'm gonna take your advice in both live cash and tourney's. Thank you
S
samsmoot
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Good to see you making progress. No advice on cash games from me though - I'm useless.
Going home before the end of the rebuys was never a consideration for me - staying in the tourney was. So I'd pretty much play as normal, neither too aggressive or loose, nor too tight and guarded. The goal at this first stage was always to have at least two buyins at the end of the rebuy period. Which was more or less guaranteed with sensible play and the correct number of buyins. For a £100 rebuy I'd take £200 and play more carefully but more aggressively in choice spots during the rebuy period. This is because I can't afford to get anted out and make multiple rebuys, and therefore would be more inclined to 'taking a chance' in order to get the chips I can't afford to buy.
The trick is not to be left with insufficient chips, so you need to see how the rebuy/top up rules would affect chip count at the end of the rebuys. So for example, if you lost all of your chips just before the end of the rebuy period, you might be allowed a 1,000 rebuy plus top up. But if you had, say, 600 chips just before the rebuys ended then the rules might be that you can only have a top up but no rebuy. Not sure, obviously, how the rules operate where you are, but I suggest you take a look at them regardless of anything else. They should be posted on a notice somewhere.
6 months total playing approx.
For a typical £20 rebuy tournament I would bring four buyins - so £80. That's one to start me off, one to top up with and one to play with. And a spare in case I got unlucky or played badly or just got blinded out.
Going home before the end of the rebuys was never a consideration for me - staying in the tourney was. So I'd pretty much play as normal, neither too aggressive or loose, nor too tight and guarded. The goal at this first stage was always to have at least two buyins at the end of the rebuy period. Which was more or less guaranteed with sensible play and the correct number of buyins. For a £100 rebuy I'd take £200 and play more carefully but more aggressively in choice spots during the rebuy period. This is because I can't afford to get anted out and make multiple rebuys, and therefore would be more inclined to 'taking a chance' in order to get the chips I can't afford to buy.
The trick is not to be left with insufficient chips, so you need to see how the rebuy/top up rules would affect chip count at the end of the rebuys. So for example, if you lost all of your chips just before the end of the rebuy period, you might be allowed a 1,000 rebuy plus top up. But if you had, say, 600 chips just before the rebuys ended then the rules might be that you can only have a top up but no rebuy. Not sure, obviously, how the rules operate where you are, but I suggest you take a look at them regardless of anything else. They should be posted on a notice somewhere.
I just play my game, which is TAG all day long. But if the table is tight then I will probably be 'owning' it, so it's not so much a case of stealing the blinds as being in charge of your table. If a loose aggressive player then sits at the table then they are going to 'own' the table - which is completely acceptable and normal.
You definitely will make money from this player if you're clever enough to go about it in the right way. I have an anecdote which I'll post below which you might find interesting and relevant.
All sounds pretty good to me. I would have been a lttle scared of another player having the nuts so have no criticisms of the way you played this. The check on the river was an excellent play. I think the small river bet kind of suggests that the other player didn't have the nuts, so the reraise was also a good play. Nice.
S
samsmoot
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Yeah, some players are just really bad, and that means you need to give them plenty of opportunities to make errors. Here is an example where the hand kind of played itself:
So I flopped the nut flush in the blind and checked it down, then checked on the river; the other player went all in (in an unraised, paltry pot) and I called.
One player turned to the other and asked, "How did he know he was going to bet". Now this was a fair question, and the reason was as above: I gave the other player an opportunity to make an error, and they did.
I DID NOT know he was going to bet. BUT, what was the alternative? The player was good enough to know to be scared of of a flop like that, so likely would have folded to even a small bet, and therefore the best option was to try and elicit an error BY ALLOWING ONE TO BE MADE. Sorry for shouting but it's worth stressing.
How about this then:
A player on the river proclaimed that he knew I had the flush. My turn to bet. Big pot BTW. How much to bet? This was completely different to the previous scenario where the player just threw in his chips because he didn't know what else to do (due to being a hopeless player).
A small bet may have been called. He seemed curious enough. He was still moaning and groaning that he knew I had the flush. So maybe he won't call anything. Why would he? Because he's a bad player and might make a mistake. How bad? Really awful - can rarely make a correct decision.
So based on the extent of this lack of inability I did the only thing I could: I scooped up my whole stack and slammed it on the table. He called, strangely enough. Took him a while, and he 'knew' I had the flush, but there you go. The worse the player, the bigger mistakes they can make - if given the chance.
So I flopped the nut flush in the blind and checked it down, then checked on the river; the other player went all in (in an unraised, paltry pot) and I called.
One player turned to the other and asked, "How did he know he was going to bet". Now this was a fair question, and the reason was as above: I gave the other player an opportunity to make an error, and they did.
I DID NOT know he was going to bet. BUT, what was the alternative? The player was good enough to know to be scared of of a flop like that, so likely would have folded to even a small bet, and therefore the best option was to try and elicit an error BY ALLOWING ONE TO BE MADE. Sorry for shouting but it's worth stressing.
How about this then:
A player on the river proclaimed that he knew I had the flush. My turn to bet. Big pot BTW. How much to bet? This was completely different to the previous scenario where the player just threw in his chips because he didn't know what else to do (due to being a hopeless player).
A small bet may have been called. He seemed curious enough. He was still moaning and groaning that he knew I had the flush. So maybe he won't call anything. Why would he? Because he's a bad player and might make a mistake. How bad? Really awful - can rarely make a correct decision.
So based on the extent of this lack of inability I did the only thing I could: I scooped up my whole stack and slammed it on the table. He called, strangely enough. Took him a while, and he 'knew' I had the flush, but there you go. The worse the player, the bigger mistakes they can make - if given the chance.
S
samsmoot
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I should be doing the garden but here's a few random tourney tips while I'm having a smoke:
1. If you get close to the bubble, keep an eye on the other table/s. You might even fold pocket Aces if an imminent knockout gets you ITM. That's an unlikely scenario but it helps make the point to be aware of what's happening on other tables near the bubble. If, for example, you were second chip leader, and the chip leader went all-in, you would get knocked out on the bubble if the Aces didn't hold up, so folding the hand may not be a bad decision.
2. Once you get confident and scary you can try my favourite 'dumb' move: the aggressive fold. So you know you are beat, and you know the other player likes his hand and is going to make a bet. What you do is as soon as he reaches for his chips, you throw in your cards swiftly and disdainfully. This kind of takes away the 'glory' of making you fold with a bet. I know it sounds a bit rubbish but it's a minor psychological 'trick' to add to your repertoire, and use if/when needed
3. Again, you know you are behind in the hand. But you also know that you can catch up. So you check the flop and the opponent is deciding his bet (by the looks of it). But you know he's an observant player who notices things, and he hasn't quite yet chosen to make the bet. And while he's doing that you stare him right in the face and grin broadly from ear-to-ear - a stupid big beaming smile. So he is a bit puzzled - so much so that he checks on the flop - and you end up losing the hand anyway after some betting on the turn and river.
Point being you got to see the turn for free. The opponent was disarmed by the stupid grin, and hence distracted, then rather confused. so he couldn't quite figure out that he should be betting because his initial judgement had been warped by the unexpected and bizarre. Yes, again it sounds a bit pathetic, and again it's just one more winning 'attitude' that you can pull out of the bag when needed. Yes, you lost the hand, but might have hit on the turn when you had no right to see the turn.
1. If you get close to the bubble, keep an eye on the other table/s. You might even fold pocket Aces if an imminent knockout gets you ITM. That's an unlikely scenario but it helps make the point to be aware of what's happening on other tables near the bubble. If, for example, you were second chip leader, and the chip leader went all-in, you would get knocked out on the bubble if the Aces didn't hold up, so folding the hand may not be a bad decision.
2. Once you get confident and scary you can try my favourite 'dumb' move: the aggressive fold. So you know you are beat, and you know the other player likes his hand and is going to make a bet. What you do is as soon as he reaches for his chips, you throw in your cards swiftly and disdainfully. This kind of takes away the 'glory' of making you fold with a bet. I know it sounds a bit rubbish but it's a minor psychological 'trick' to add to your repertoire, and use if/when needed
3. Again, you know you are behind in the hand. But you also know that you can catch up. So you check the flop and the opponent is deciding his bet (by the looks of it). But you know he's an observant player who notices things, and he hasn't quite yet chosen to make the bet. And while he's doing that you stare him right in the face and grin broadly from ear-to-ear - a stupid big beaming smile. So he is a bit puzzled - so much so that he checks on the flop - and you end up losing the hand anyway after some betting on the turn and river.
Point being you got to see the turn for free. The opponent was disarmed by the stupid grin, and hence distracted, then rather confused. so he couldn't quite figure out that he should be betting because his initial judgement had been warped by the unexpected and bizarre. Yes, again it sounds a bit pathetic, and again it's just one more winning 'attitude' that you can pull out of the bag when needed. Yes, you lost the hand, but might have hit on the turn when you had no right to see the turn.
5TR8 FLUSH
Legend
Loyaler
Hi everyone, so I just got back from playing my best tournament yet. I didn't cash, but got knocked out in 17th place. I could have easily made the FT, but I got to excited when I was able to almost get 5X what I had with J9o. I was down to about two blind, I'm on the SB with J9o, and there are four people in the pot. Flop comes 4 8 9, I'm fist to act to I shove. Everyone called, so they set the potential pot aside, which I one. I can't remember what came on the turn nor river, but I remember one of the big stacks bluffed on the river and everyone called, and I had best hand. Second best hand that took the other pot had 9 7o. I got lucky I hit flop and was back in the game with about 10BB.
The next hand I have 10h Kh on the button. This time there are already 3 people that called before me, so I limped, SB and BB called.
Flop 8x 7h Qx - everyone checks
Turn Jh - check to me, I bet 1.5X, everyone fold one call from BB who is the big stack that bluffed previous hand.
River 5x - I missed flush and straight on river and decided to bet 3X and big stack thinks and calls. He turn over J6o.
This hand took me down to about 4BB, and I was tilting a little because I was disappointed in how I played that hand. I got knocked out the following hand with As2c, I thought I had As2s, flop had to spades, thinking I had nut flush draw, I bet flop, shove turn and get beat by Ks5s. This player paired turn with 5's, but had second nut flush.
Thinking back at that hand with Kh 10h, I wish I would have bet more on turn and shoved river. Do you guys think doing this was the right play?
This was by far the funnest tournament, I won 4 out of 5 shoves. I kept going down to about 4BB or worse, but was at around 10BB most of tournament. I was at table 2 seat 6 the entire tournament. The person who knocked me out was woman to my right (seat 5) who ran hot early on. It was only her second time playing and you could tell, but she won many big hands. She reminded me when I first started recently (I'm still learning), had to be reminded when it was her turn, post blinds, etc. She mentioned she plays online and that this was second live tournament. She was catching up quickly, and was one of the big stack.
Last thing about tonight. I get pocket 10's (don't remember position) and the weirdest thing happened that I didn't know was possible. Up to the turn, all cards are less then 9 for example 7 4 9 5. I have about 4000 chips, there's a person with 2375, and the woman to my right (knocked me out later). Anyways, I bet 2000, person with 2375 shoves, woman calls, I shove, but dealer said since person with 2375 didn't double, I couldn't shove (weird right). River comes J, woman put me all in, I fold because she's been running hot till this point (most of tournament). She made trip J's on river.
Has anyone experienced something like this? I'm glad it happened because it kept me in the tournament, but feel that should have been eliminated there.
Sorry for long post, had to share funnest experience yet. Good night all.
The next hand I have 10h Kh on the button. This time there are already 3 people that called before me, so I limped, SB and BB called.
Flop 8x 7h Qx - everyone checks
Turn Jh - check to me, I bet 1.5X, everyone fold one call from BB who is the big stack that bluffed previous hand.
River 5x - I missed flush and straight on river and decided to bet 3X and big stack thinks and calls. He turn over J6o.
This hand took me down to about 4BB, and I was tilting a little because I was disappointed in how I played that hand. I got knocked out the following hand with As2c, I thought I had As2s, flop had to spades, thinking I had nut flush draw, I bet flop, shove turn and get beat by Ks5s. This player paired turn with 5's, but had second nut flush.
Thinking back at that hand with Kh 10h, I wish I would have bet more on turn and shoved river. Do you guys think doing this was the right play?
This was by far the funnest tournament, I won 4 out of 5 shoves. I kept going down to about 4BB or worse, but was at around 10BB most of tournament. I was at table 2 seat 6 the entire tournament. The person who knocked me out was woman to my right (seat 5) who ran hot early on. It was only her second time playing and you could tell, but she won many big hands. She reminded me when I first started recently (I'm still learning), had to be reminded when it was her turn, post blinds, etc. She mentioned she plays online and that this was second live tournament. She was catching up quickly, and was one of the big stack.
Last thing about tonight. I get pocket 10's (don't remember position) and the weirdest thing happened that I didn't know was possible. Up to the turn, all cards are less then 9 for example 7 4 9 5. I have about 4000 chips, there's a person with 2375, and the woman to my right (knocked me out later). Anyways, I bet 2000, person with 2375 shoves, woman calls, I shove, but dealer said since person with 2375 didn't double, I couldn't shove (weird right). River comes J, woman put me all in, I fold because she's been running hot till this point (most of tournament). She made trip J's on river.
Has anyone experienced something like this? I'm glad it happened because it kept me in the tournament, but feel that should have been eliminated there.
I need to work on this still, I give out to much info. On a hand early in the tournament I had As7s and on turn I made two pair, person to my left shoved (seat 7), and I folded and showed. The turn also was the third diamond out and other player acted first. I put him on either flush or trips because earlier in the game, he tried to bluff with small bets and I called to river and won hand with second pair. He didn't show and I wondered if he had me beat or not.
I've gone now a hand full of time, and yes there are many regulars. I noticed the majority of people know each other and they're starting to recognize me. I'm not very social, but talked the most tonight (mostly to the two people besides me). I'm trying to break out of my shell, and me a little more social and stay focused in the game.
Sorry for long post, had to share funnest experience yet. Good night all.
N
Niykk
Visionary
Bronze Level
In live poker tournament, in my opinion, it's important to be rested and to be able to memorize your cards by just glancing at them once and never to look at them again until the hand is over. Also wear sunglasses if they are allowed as eyes don't lie. Good luck!
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IADaveMark
Rock Star
Silver Level
5TR8 FLUSH
Legend
Loyaler
Thank you for the advice Niykk, I'm not sure if sun glasses are allowed. I'll pay attention next time.
Thank you for sharing this Dave, and taking the time to check out the thread.
S
samsmoot
Enthusiast
Silver Level
So check.
Poor bet.
Checking would have been best because you can't bluff a bluffer.
Mmm...
You certainly could have represented the Queen with a pot-sized bet. But without knowing your demeanour and your opponent's level of thinking and observation I can't be sure that this would have induced a fold. That might have been a better play, even at the risk of losing big time. Really depends on how convincing you can be - with this particular player you have to be much more careful than when up against a player like myself, who is TAG.
Being careful in my case could have entailed betting a smallish amount, as I may not have continued on a board like that with a hand like that. If I did continue I would likely have AJ or a set, but as it stands the kicker is too poor and I wouldn't like it at all, and may well have folded there and then with J6. If I'm calling you might worry unless I'm chasing a draw, because I may be slow playing a good hand. I wouldn't usually be checking on the flop with top pair because I will also have a good kicker, and as a TAG player I keep it simple and bet when I have a good but not nut hand.
Being careful against the player above would best be done by either betting large or not at all. And trying to bluff through that many players at once isn't a standard play, really. Someone is likely to look you up due to a possible perception that you are playing your position as opposed to your hand. A call on the turn could have been dealt with by checking/folding on the river if you were insecure about continuing.
Not at all.
Yes, it's normal. A raise needs to be at least equal to the last bet, so the 2375 was not a raise. It was a short-stack all-in, which is different because the amount raised falls short of a proper raise. So you can't reraise because there has been no legitimate raise - even though the pot has actually been raised. If the all-in had 4001 chips that would be a raise and you could then reraise, but anything less than 4000 you can't. 3999 all-in would not have allowed a reraise.
On this subject, don't ever let anyone try and put you all-in with a short bet. Player A bets 10,000, player B asks for your chip count, which is 18,000, so player B 'raises' to 18,000, which isn't a legal bet. If they want to get you all-in then make them pay 20,000 for it. You won't win any more money (it appears) but player B may lose 2,000 more than he intended to if player A wins the hand. Not only that, the legitimate reraise which you forced player B to make now paves the way for another reraise from player A, which player B isn't going to like. And not only that, player A could then raise enough to make player B fold, which gives you a lot more chance to win the hand, as you're now up against only one opponent. And player A might be correct to reraise because player B is keener on getting you all-in than he is in getting HIS chips in, and that shows weakness.
This could happen if you had 19,999 chips - MAKE THEM PUT THE CHIP IN!
If a player asks for a chip count, and you think it's to get you all-in, AND it looks like they might try a short raise, you could try putting them off by telling them that, as above, 20,000 will put you all-in. So they don't need to know the exact amount if it's less, do they? They kind of do because you have to declare your stack size if asked or get the dealer to do it, but they'll get the point and may decide not to raise after all.
Imagine you have 15,000 chips instead - that's 5,000 chips player B is saving if he manages to pull a fast one, so spotting the attempt may put player A off the raise. You can't always rely on the dealer to spot technical errors, and nobody else is likely to interfere (unless I'm there, of course!).
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S
samsmoot
Enthusiast
Silver Level
roger perkins said:
'NEVER NEVER show do not give away free information'
This is great advice for the most part. But next time you play, see if anyone shows their pocket Aces. And see how that compares to showing other hands. You may or may not come to the notion that players tend to show pocket Aces - it's kind of like a 'tradition', at least in my part of the world.
It may have struck you that a lot of stuff I mention is a bit deep or obscure or seemingly petty. Here's an example of me playing pocket Aces which is very deep, obscure, but possibly far from petty in the long run. I think that even though the actual plays I will describe may have no relevance to your current play, what I'm showing, in essence, is how deep a studious player thinks, and how a consistent style of play pays dividends.
I always bet the pot and raise the pot. Always.
So I played pocket Aces in a straightforward and typical way. Pre-flop raise, call, pot bet on flop, player folds, I show.
Same player a few weeks later. We know each other's play well. I play AKos the exact same way pre-flop. This time player raises 'the max', so I raise 'the max'. Player eventually folds.
Now, the question is: did me playing AK the exact same way as I would have played pocket Aces have ANY influence on that particular player? Could they think I had pocket Aces? More so than if I had not shown my Aces previously, perhaps? I do not know, but I do know that having previously shown my Aces did me no harm.
I still wonder what the other player would have had. He was big enough to fold a high pair such as Kings or Queens. He would probably not have reraised with AK. He could have had AQ but I doubt it. To my mind folding Kings is very difficult for most players, folding Queens not so much. So after the third raise the player had to consider that I could have AA, KK, AK, but not really AQ or JJ. Given my likely range of hands in that situation AA would definitely be considered as a strong possibility. KK too. AK maybe.
Therefore QQ might get folded. AK might get folded. KK might even get folded. QQ against AKos is about 50/50 IF I have AKos. If I have KK or AA, which it looks like I could have, he's on to a loser. So all told the best he can hope for is that I have AK for a 50/50 shot if he has pocket Queens. I think that's probably what he had. If he had AK he was unlikely to have played the hand so hard with the reraise (but see below). I think KK unlikely but you never know.
To some extent there was an element of challenge with the player's raise to 'the max'. A kind of test. Wanting to take control etc. But also there may have been an awareness that I might outplay him on the flop. If he did have AK he'd have to do a lot of quick thinking on the flop if he didn't hit, and maybe even if he did. And so that means he may have been trying to avoid playing on the flop by making a large pre-flop reraise. That might not apply to QQ so much but I still think he would have been lacking confidence in his hand and/or his ability to play the hand properly after the flop.
This is a specific situation with a specific player. At another time or against another player I may have folded to the first raise. I was taking advantage of my image and fearlessness against a very good player who was capable of perceiving these things.
'NEVER NEVER show do not give away free information'
This is great advice for the most part. But next time you play, see if anyone shows their pocket Aces. And see how that compares to showing other hands. You may or may not come to the notion that players tend to show pocket Aces - it's kind of like a 'tradition', at least in my part of the world.
It may have struck you that a lot of stuff I mention is a bit deep or obscure or seemingly petty. Here's an example of me playing pocket Aces which is very deep, obscure, but possibly far from petty in the long run. I think that even though the actual plays I will describe may have no relevance to your current play, what I'm showing, in essence, is how deep a studious player thinks, and how a consistent style of play pays dividends.
I always bet the pot and raise the pot. Always.
So I played pocket Aces in a straightforward and typical way. Pre-flop raise, call, pot bet on flop, player folds, I show.
Same player a few weeks later. We know each other's play well. I play AKos the exact same way pre-flop. This time player raises 'the max', so I raise 'the max'. Player eventually folds.
Now, the question is: did me playing AK the exact same way as I would have played pocket Aces have ANY influence on that particular player? Could they think I had pocket Aces? More so than if I had not shown my Aces previously, perhaps? I do not know, but I do know that having previously shown my Aces did me no harm.
I still wonder what the other player would have had. He was big enough to fold a high pair such as Kings or Queens. He would probably not have reraised with AK. He could have had AQ but I doubt it. To my mind folding Kings is very difficult for most players, folding Queens not so much. So after the third raise the player had to consider that I could have AA, KK, AK, but not really AQ or JJ. Given my likely range of hands in that situation AA would definitely be considered as a strong possibility. KK too. AK maybe.
Therefore QQ might get folded. AK might get folded. KK might even get folded. QQ against AKos is about 50/50 IF I have AKos. If I have KK or AA, which it looks like I could have, he's on to a loser. So all told the best he can hope for is that I have AK for a 50/50 shot if he has pocket Queens. I think that's probably what he had. If he had AK he was unlikely to have played the hand so hard with the reraise (but see below). I think KK unlikely but you never know.
To some extent there was an element of challenge with the player's raise to 'the max'. A kind of test. Wanting to take control etc. But also there may have been an awareness that I might outplay him on the flop. If he did have AK he'd have to do a lot of quick thinking on the flop if he didn't hit, and maybe even if he did. And so that means he may have been trying to avoid playing on the flop by making a large pre-flop reraise. That might not apply to QQ so much but I still think he would have been lacking confidence in his hand and/or his ability to play the hand properly after the flop.
This is a specific situation with a specific player. At another time or against another player I may have folded to the first raise. I was taking advantage of my image and fearlessness against a very good player who was capable of perceiving these things.
A
Amblo
Legend
Bronze Level
It's good to share these experiences. In live poker you have to pay a lot more attention as some actions that are automatic online are not live. The player in seat five was probably experienced and took advantage of his carelessness.
The first time I played live I made every mistake possible, like betting before my turn, celebrating a hand before winning and losing on the river
IoIThe experience will bring you more security, good luck next time!
5TR8 FLUSH
Legend
Loyaler
I would like to develop my live game to this level of playing. At the moment I'm still learning to keep up with what's going on, more specifically knowing how much chip I have, and how many blinds I have. I don't play out of turn anymore and learned the button is always last to act post flop.
For some reason I'm stuck betting small or 1/3 pot, maybe I should get a little more aggressive. When I feel strong.
I agree, live poker is much different than online poker. I am still making "beginner" mistakes. Last time I went, the first hand I won, I started collecting chips, and was told to let dealer do that. I got a little embarrassed, but didn't do that again LOL.The first time I played live I made every mistake possible, like betting before my turn, celebrating a hand before winning and losing on the river
S
samsmoot
Enthusiast
Silver Level
That's the spirit!
The best thing for you at the moment is to do these three simple things the next time you go so as to get a feel for TAG play:
1. Play these starting hands ONLY: Any pair, AK down to A10, suited Ace. With small pairs you hope to make a set. With A9 you can't make a straight. With A suited you know you'll have the best flush if it comes. If you are short stacked things obviously change - any Ace or two high cards can be added in that case for an all-in, and a low pair could hold up if against only one other player.
2. Always bet the pot. This applies equally to pocket Aces pre-flop or a pair of threes with no kicker on the river. This saves you thinking about bet size, which is convenient, and gives nothing away due to bet-sizing anomalies.
3. Do not chase flush and straight draws unless it's very cheap to do so. I might force the action on the flop with the draw plus overcards, such as AK suited, but that's a dangerous play and maybe not for you right now.
You can always try something different next time, but if you give what I suggest one go you'll at least have a plan and someone to blame if it ends in disaster.
A
Amblo
Legend
Bronze Level
But online poker is an excellent school! And a lot of fun too!
S
samsmoot
Enthusiast
Silver Level
5TR8 FLUSH said:
I would like to develop my live game to this level of playing.
I think it would be helpful if I provide some context:
My whole aim was to make a long term profit rather than enjoy playing poker.
My level was 'novice semi-pro'.
My earnings were an average £60 per session ($80) at the time.
I played 3 times per week on average.
So each week I played poker I would be making £180.
This wasn't quite a living wage but it was getting there.
Breaking the figures and tournaments down I might play 5 tourneys over a couple of weeks and win £350 once and lose the others, for an average of £60 profit per game. This takes into account buyin fees, taxis, tips etc.
The games would typically go like this:
1. Played well, got unlucky. Maybe made it to near the bubble short stacked and got called with a better hand and got knocked out.
2. Played well but poor cards. Happens sometimes and it's annoying.
3. Played badly. Maybe tried to bluff a well-known bluffer. Duh.
4. Played well and got good hands. And won.
5. Played OK but got lucky then not so lucky. Maybe went all-in with a flush draw against a set and and won the hand, then got beat when my two pair didn't stand a chance due to another player having the same two pair and another player who I couldn't see properly and who I didn't know anything about having a set.
My play would be consistent with the main exceptions being whether I would:
1. Be less aggressive or more aggressive pre-flop during the tourney.
2. Usually raise pre-flop or not with AK during the tourney.
I would pick one from each category and more or less stick to that.
I would like to develop my live game to this level of playing.
I think it would be helpful if I provide some context:
My whole aim was to make a long term profit rather than enjoy playing poker.
My level was 'novice semi-pro'.
My earnings were an average £60 per session ($80) at the time.
I played 3 times per week on average.
So each week I played poker I would be making £180.
This wasn't quite a living wage but it was getting there.
Breaking the figures and tournaments down I might play 5 tourneys over a couple of weeks and win £350 once and lose the others, for an average of £60 profit per game. This takes into account buyin fees, taxis, tips etc.
The games would typically go like this:
1. Played well, got unlucky. Maybe made it to near the bubble short stacked and got called with a better hand and got knocked out.
2. Played well but poor cards. Happens sometimes and it's annoying.
3. Played badly. Maybe tried to bluff a well-known bluffer. Duh.
4. Played well and got good hands. And won.
5. Played OK but got lucky then not so lucky. Maybe went all-in with a flush draw against a set and and won the hand, then got beat when my two pair didn't stand a chance due to another player having the same two pair and another player who I couldn't see properly and who I didn't know anything about having a set.
My play would be consistent with the main exceptions being whether I would:
1. Be less aggressive or more aggressive pre-flop during the tourney.
2. Usually raise pre-flop or not with AK during the tourney.
I would pick one from each category and more or less stick to that.
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5TR8 FLUSH
Legend
Loyaler
I'm gonna try it out next time I go (maybe next week, too tired today). I will increase my bets to about pot size, not chasing draws will be a challenge for me, but will try to be more discipline, the first suggestion may be the most challenging because I play a wide range of hands, but will try to tighten up.
I think it's cool that you played well enough to make a weekly profit. Nothing crazy, but winning is winning.
I enjoy online poker, our CC freerolls and the CC league games. Online poker is more easier and comfortable for me.