Phoenix Wright
Legend
Loyaler
I found it comical how Hellmuth called out Negreanu on this lol
He is right though, suited connectors are over-valued far too often by many and Negreanu's "small ball" approach did popularize playing these types of hands. However, even Negreanu noted the drawbacks with playing this style. Agreeing with Hellmuth, Negreanu prefers to play these hands in position. Negreanu's play style here is a risky one for sure. His play-style is hoping on getting paid off against top pair and times where he hits the board hard, but even Negreanu acknowledges that you need the ability to fold even your made hands like flushes if the action becomes too much (don't forget how good Negreanu is at hand reading).
Too often will Negreanu (or any amateur playing smaller suited connectors like 98s) hit a flush, but then someone with a higher flush will have him crushed. What makes this work for Negreanu and not the average player is that he will recognize the situation and fold his made flush! Playing suited connectors requires a lot of post-flop ability that many players simply do not posses. It is not easy to hit your hand and still have to fold.
What makes this profitable for Negreanu is his style of play to attack the blinds (which these hands might be good for doing) and then adjust in many cases. The opponents might think Negreanu is playing way looser than he actually is and then he capitalizes on them overplaying their hand like top pair.
As one might have figured out, including suited connectors like this into regular play requires a change in play style/table image because you'll be playing a lot more hands. There is also a danger in becoming way looser than you might want. If you begin to play hands like 98s, then 75s is basically the same thing or at least 76s right? Next thing you know, you are playing hands like 32s and shocked when you flop a 5-high straight but lose the hand! Even more likely to be the case with something like you holding 98s and the flop comes QJT rainbow; you just hit your straight, but AK has you dominated with the nut straight!
They can be useful to play, but you need a ton of discipline to make them profitable long term.
He is right though, suited connectors are over-valued far too often by many and Negreanu's "small ball" approach did popularize playing these types of hands. However, even Negreanu noted the drawbacks with playing this style. Agreeing with Hellmuth, Negreanu prefers to play these hands in position. Negreanu's play style here is a risky one for sure. His play-style is hoping on getting paid off against top pair and times where he hits the board hard, but even Negreanu acknowledges that you need the ability to fold even your made hands like flushes if the action becomes too much (don't forget how good Negreanu is at hand reading).
Too often will Negreanu (or any amateur playing smaller suited connectors like 98s) hit a flush, but then someone with a higher flush will have him crushed. What makes this work for Negreanu and not the average player is that he will recognize the situation and fold his made flush! Playing suited connectors requires a lot of post-flop ability that many players simply do not posses. It is not easy to hit your hand and still have to fold.
What makes this profitable for Negreanu is his style of play to attack the blinds (which these hands might be good for doing) and then adjust in many cases. The opponents might think Negreanu is playing way looser than he actually is and then he capitalizes on them overplaying their hand like top pair.
As one might have figured out, including suited connectors like this into regular play requires a change in play style/table image because you'll be playing a lot more hands. There is also a danger in becoming way looser than you might want. If you begin to play hands like 98s, then 75s is basically the same thing or at least 76s right? Next thing you know, you are playing hands like 32s and shocked when you flop a 5-high straight but lose the hand! Even more likely to be the case with something like you holding 98s and the flop comes QJT rainbow; you just hit your straight, but AK has you dominated with the nut straight!
They can be useful to play, but you need a ton of discipline to make them profitable long term.
D
donpiatnik
Rock Star
Silver Level
In the case of 2 large cards, it doesn't really matter (preflop), since (AQ, AK ..) because if they are not of the same suit, you still act with them. I typically have 7-8s, 9-10s, and different well-combined suited cards have signs. Given the circumstances I like to act into combat with these cards, as my opponent usually doesn’t even count on them, so it can cause surprises that can take away big pots.
And of course for suited pocket pairs is important too... but that's relatively rare!
And of course for suited pocket pairs is important too... but that's relatively rare!
Phoenix Wright
Legend
Loyaler
lol I almost thought the same, but re-read closer. The op titled it "suited pocket cards" and not "pocket pairs." They are probably newer to poker or perhaps even English not a first language. It is a pretty small thing; I'm virtually certain they simply mean suited "hole" cards instead of "pocket." Poker terms "hole cards" and "pocket cards" are often used interchangeably in poker meaning the exact cards you hold. Usually "pocket" is in the sense of pairs, but I don't think this is a requirement - just customarily phrased this way.
...so...suited hole cards
andreypuch
Rock Star
Silver Level
+EV, flash, street, street flash. And if u in pos, u God.
Phoenix Wright
Legend
Loyaler
Actually it varies slightly based on which exact cards and the board texture/runout. 5% more equity sounds too high though. Having holdings suited or off-suit is more like a 2% difference - maybe 3%. It basically makes no difference which is why it is overvalued too often. Even if both your cards are suited, that doesn't mean the Flush will get there for your suit and exactly so that it wouldn't have otherwise.
Here are some examples just to see how much suited or not matters according to the free poker calculations of Equilab:
AKo vs random hand has 65.32% equity while AKs has 67.04% equity. Roughly 2% difference.
JTo vs random hand has 55.25% equity while JTs has 57.53% equity. Roughly 2% difference.
54o vs random hand has 38.16% equity while 54s has 41.45% equity. Roughly 3% difference.
Examples help illustrate how suited versus non-suited isn't actually a huge difference objectively speaking. Why then is there so much emphasis put on suited cards by some players? Yes, extra outs to a possible Flush is nice to have but we already revealed how little equity that matters.
I think the "hidden reason" suited cards are more sought after is because there are less of them. Non-pocket pairs (like AK) have 16 possible combinations that make them. Out of those 16 possible hand combinations of Ace-King possible, only 4 are suited and 12 off-suit. From the perspective of building ranges, it might make sense to only play suited cards if they are on the cusp of playability because you aren't including them as often. This keeps you with a tighter range (for whatever that is worth).
Chances are, most people are going to want to play a powerful preflop hand like Ace-King...suited or not. What about Ax hands though? This is great example of when suited might be a better option if you choose to play lower Ax at all. Say you want to include Ace-Deuce into your default range for a certain position at the table (for whatever reason). Deciding to play any Ace-deuce you get gives you 16 possible hands you might play, but deciding to play only Ace-deuce suited gives you only 4 hands to play (one per suit).
Daniel72
Legend
Bronze Level
I can confirm in the micros they all love these suited hands, even crap like J4s.
If they reach the flush, selective memory will confirm teir play in their minds.
And these sooted cards look so nice, its psychology too.
These players forget: they can easily lose too a higher flush too, when they get there.
But even suited Aces are overrated preflop.
If they reach the flush, selective memory will confirm teir play in their minds.
And these sooted cards look so nice, its psychology too.
These players forget: they can easily lose too a higher flush too, when they get there.
But even suited Aces are overrated preflop.
perrypip
Rock Star
Silver Level
When you have suited cards, you have a 10.9% chance of flush draw on the flop, and a 0.8% chance of flopping a flush
When you have connected cards you have 10.4% chance of flopping an OESD and a 1.3% chance of flopping a straight.
You also have about 4.4% chance of flopping 2 pair or better with any two non pair cards.
So all in all you have about a 21.3% chance of flopping a decent draw and a 6.5% chance of flopping a big hand with a suited connector
Worth playing in multiway flops and if you have about 20 to 1 implied odds in a 2 way pot, more or less. Also worth defending a big blind.
Side note: a one gapper has about 7.2% chance of flopping a OESD and a about 1.0% chance of flopping a straight. So a suited one gapper has a 18.1% chance of a decent draw and a 6.5% chance of flopping a big hand.
When you have connected cards you have 10.4% chance of flopping an OESD and a 1.3% chance of flopping a straight.
You also have about 4.4% chance of flopping 2 pair or better with any two non pair cards.
So all in all you have about a 21.3% chance of flopping a decent draw and a 6.5% chance of flopping a big hand with a suited connector
Worth playing in multiway flops and if you have about 20 to 1 implied odds in a 2 way pot, more or less. Also worth defending a big blind.
Side note: a one gapper has about 7.2% chance of flopping a OESD and a about 1.0% chance of flopping a straight. So a suited one gapper has a 18.1% chance of a decent draw and a 6.5% chance of flopping a big hand.
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