Katie Dozier
Poker Expert
Silver Level
SeniorTurtle
Rising Star
Bronze Level
should I have bet more on the river for value?
I'm in the process of putting the lessons of the course into practice. Here's a hand I recently played. Should I have bet more on the river, like closer to the full pot, or even going all-in at the river?
[FONT=Lato, sans-serif]
[/FONT]Online Freeroll - Holdem - 8 players
Early-stage of the freeroll
UTG: 48 BB
MP: 47 BB
LO: 60 BB
HJ: 66 BB (Villain)
CO: 47 BB
BTN: 47 BB
SB: 48 BB
BB: 33 BB (Hero)
SB posts SB 0.5BB, BB posts 1BB
Pre Flop:(pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q♥8♥
Everyone folds to HJ (Villain) who limps, fold, fold, fold, BB (Hero) checks
Flop:(2.5BB, 2 players) A♥ 3♠ 6♥
BB (Hero) bets 2.5BB, HJ (Villain) calls
Turn:(7.5BB, 2 players) 4♣
BB (Hero) checks, HJ (Villain) bets 3.75BB, Hero calls
River:(15 BB, 2 players) T♥
BB (Hero) bets 7.5BB
HJ (Villain) calls
Villain has A♦8♣
Hero wins the pot with a flush
Looking forward to your thoughts as to how I could have played this hand better. Did I extract the most value, or was there some more juice left to squeeze?
I'm in the process of putting the lessons of the course into practice. Here's a hand I recently played. Should I have bet more on the river, like closer to the full pot, or even going all-in at the river?
[FONT=Lato, sans-serif]
[/FONT]Online Freeroll - Holdem - 8 players
Early-stage of the freeroll
UTG: 48 BB
MP: 47 BB
LO: 60 BB
HJ: 66 BB (Villain)
CO: 47 BB
BTN: 47 BB
SB: 48 BB
BB: 33 BB (Hero)
SB posts SB 0.5BB, BB posts 1BB
Pre Flop:(pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q♥8♥
Everyone folds to HJ (Villain) who limps, fold, fold, fold, BB (Hero) checks
Flop:(2.5BB, 2 players) A♥ 3♠ 6♥
BB (Hero) bets 2.5BB, HJ (Villain) calls
Turn:(7.5BB, 2 players) 4♣
BB (Hero) checks, HJ (Villain) bets 3.75BB, Hero calls
River:(15 BB, 2 players) T♥
BB (Hero) bets 7.5BB
HJ (Villain) calls
Villain has A♦8♣
Hero wins the pot with a flush
Looking forward to your thoughts as to how I could have played this hand better. Did I extract the most value, or was there some more juice left to squeeze?
AllinIgor
Rock Star
Silver Level
Hey bro, all right?
I hope so.
See, I believe you played your hand up the turn very well, kept control of the pot, however when you hit your flush, you could have extracted enough chips from the villain, maybe if you had applied an over bet, it would be the best move, probably he would not let go of the hand thinking that you could be bluffing.
Good luck at the tables!
I hope so.
See, I believe you played your hand up the turn very well, kept control of the pot, however when you hit your flush, you could have extracted enough chips from the villain, maybe if you had applied an over bet, it would be the best move, probably he would not let go of the hand thinking that you could be bluffing.
Good luck at the tables!
Katie Dozier
Poker Expert
Silver Level
I think you played this hand very reasonably, but with the strength of our hand I would personally suggest overbet shoving the river. While of course it will likely cross our opponent’s mind that we could have a flush, it will look more “bluffy” if we shove. Our opponent’s range isn’t particularly strong here (which favors a smaller bet) but since we’re essentially hoping for a hero call, I think we can extract more value in the long run by overbet shoving which will I believe induce more hero calls from a player that is most likely to call to frequently (based on the late position limp pre-flop).
SeniorTurtle
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Katie thank you very much for your detailed response to this question. I really appreciate that both you and Collin take an active part in these forum discussions. It makes the whole process of learning so much easier knowing that there is a place to ask questions and resolve any ambiguities during the learning process. It makes the whole process of learn, apply, review and hopefully improve go much smoother since one is not learning in a vacuum. I'm sure I'll have more questions going forward on my journey to playing better poker as I try to internalize the material presented in this course.
David macdonald
Legend
Bronze Level
henriquemaduro
Visionary
Bronze Level
Don't be so agressive, if you don't want to let the villain see the river and are behind, u will lose a lot of times, like this and the lessons before taught, there are a lot of situations that our hand isn't strong enough before river but we have something to do, instead of just fold.
In the example of the video, the hand that hero holds 99, if you bet hard to villain don't see the river, he just fold and you don't gain his chips.
Last edited:
barbados
Legend
Platinum Level
For some reason, it seems to me that you have the most balanced assessment. Since it is still difficult for me personally to draw conclusions from this lesson.
BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch
Visionary
Bronze Level
Day 12: Ask Yourself This Question Every Time you Bet the River
What I gathered from past videos in the series is you value bet the river when you think you have the best hand but you don't bet the river when you have some type of showdown value.
Video Tidbits:
Slide:
If I bet or raise, what better hands will fold?
If I bet or raise, what worse hands will call?
You need experience with flops like being able to read a board and putting folks on a range by what they're playing and showing down with to get this lesson. This stuff with you having any 2 cards and you don't look at a flop might make this lesson seem like Charlie Brown's teacher saying "Waaa wwaaa waaaaaaa", lol.
Collin says "You bet to get worse hands to call (ie a value bet) and you bet the river to get better hands to fold (ie a bluff)". I got it.
equity Denial Bet- "Betting with the purpose of getting a worse hand to fold".
So your "Equity" is the possession of a pot shown by the odds of you winning the pot like the percentages on TV during a poker hand. In the example you have 33 with a flop of T 8 2 rainbow. Its a hypothetical, so lets ASSUME you're in the SB with 33 and the BB has any two random cards which are over 33 and that's reasonable.
Collin pulls up Equilab to get an idea of players "equity" in the pot and throws in Q7 which gives you the hero with 33 a 72% of winning the pot vs 28% odds for villain. The important part is your opponent has a percentage of the pot with RANDOM CARDS so they have a chance to win but you bet to get them to fold that "equity" in the pot and that's what an Equity Denial Bet is.
A Bet for Protection is another bet that denies a straight or flush draw.
In stud variations I can really see this concept in action because you can see opponents cards but it would be a lot harder in holdem or omaha unless you could put them in a range from watching previous hands and how they play and/or like in the example of holding 33
Collin emphasizes opponents combined equity is something to be aware of in the 73 example. We can play around with the odds calculator at Cardschat to get a better of understanding of this by plugging in villains hands or even adding more villains into the hand to see our equity go down.
The thinking Collin demonstrates while going over the hands is what everyone should be doing during a hand. The first five minutes of the video goes over Equity denial and it can be a little over whelming but then he spends like 10+ mins going over examples and it goes fast.
For the review question I just said the hand had showdown value so just check it. but the real question is why doesn't the AQ raise preflop? But its just a hypothetical to highlight a point so that doesn't matter, lol.
Ebook Tidbits.
"Equity Denial Bet: A bet to get worse hands to fold, because those worse hands still have descent equity against us."
The ebook emphasizes Harrington "If I bet or raise here, what better hands will fold, and what worse hands will call?" The 83 example highlights the concept.
And we're done. I need to study river play some more but I understand what's going on here or I think I do, lol. Another good lesson.
Need to do 10 and 11 to finish off the 2nd week.
Key Take Away is I want to work on my post flop game after finishing this course.
What I gathered from past videos in the series is you value bet the river when you think you have the best hand but you don't bet the river when you have some type of showdown value.
Video Tidbits:
Slide:
If I bet or raise, what better hands will fold?
If I bet or raise, what worse hands will call?
You need experience with flops like being able to read a board and putting folks on a range by what they're playing and showing down with to get this lesson. This stuff with you having any 2 cards and you don't look at a flop might make this lesson seem like Charlie Brown's teacher saying "Waaa wwaaa waaaaaaa", lol.
Collin says "You bet to get worse hands to call (ie a value bet) and you bet the river to get better hands to fold (ie a bluff)". I got it.
equity Denial Bet- "Betting with the purpose of getting a worse hand to fold".
So your "Equity" is the possession of a pot shown by the odds of you winning the pot like the percentages on TV during a poker hand. In the example you have 33 with a flop of T 8 2 rainbow. Its a hypothetical, so lets ASSUME you're in the SB with 33 and the BB has any two random cards which are over 33 and that's reasonable.
Collin pulls up Equilab to get an idea of players "equity" in the pot and throws in Q7 which gives you the hero with 33 a 72% of winning the pot vs 28% odds for villain. The important part is your opponent has a percentage of the pot with RANDOM CARDS so they have a chance to win but you bet to get them to fold that "equity" in the pot and that's what an Equity Denial Bet is.
A Bet for Protection is another bet that denies a straight or flush draw.
In stud variations I can really see this concept in action because you can see opponents cards but it would be a lot harder in holdem or omaha unless you could put them in a range from watching previous hands and how they play and/or like in the example of holding 33
Collin emphasizes opponents combined equity is something to be aware of in the 73 example. We can play around with the odds calculator at Cardschat to get a better of understanding of this by plugging in villains hands or even adding more villains into the hand to see our equity go down.
The thinking Collin demonstrates while going over the hands is what everyone should be doing during a hand. The first five minutes of the video goes over Equity denial and it can be a little over whelming but then he spends like 10+ mins going over examples and it goes fast.
For the review question I just said the hand had showdown value so just check it. but the real question is why doesn't the AQ raise preflop? But its just a hypothetical to highlight a point so that doesn't matter, lol.
Ebook Tidbits.
"Equity Denial Bet: A bet to get worse hands to fold, because those worse hands still have descent equity against us."
The ebook emphasizes Harrington "If I bet or raise here, what better hands will fold, and what worse hands will call?" The 83 example highlights the concept.
And we're done. I need to study river play some more but I understand what's going on here or I think I do, lol. Another good lesson.
Need to do 10 and 11 to finish off the 2nd week.
Key Take Away is I want to work on my post flop game after finishing this course.
Oranaro
Rock Star
Bronze Level
Border situation
Awesome lesson, I have a question about river betting, there is an idea, when you bet, to give the odds to villain to call, so you maximize your income. For example, you hit A on the river, which makes you top pair, with K top kicker. You know from the bets that villain had a strong hand, but there is no draws. He could have of course a set. So if you bet, he will fold worse hands, but call better hands, so sets. So if I bet enough so I give him the odds for worse hands to call, for example he may hit J , and makes JJ , betting 33% should give him the odds, as it's 1.3/0.3 -> 4 - 1 . He is more likely to get a pair than a set, so for us betting may be befenic on the long run. On the other hand, checking would be the same as folding when he has a pair, as he may be afraid of a check raise when we re out of position, and when we are on position, well the result is the same as we would check after him. What do you think of this situation?
Awesome lesson, I have a question about river betting, there is an idea, when you bet, to give the odds to villain to call, so you maximize your income. For example, you hit A on the river, which makes you top pair, with K top kicker. You know from the bets that villain had a strong hand, but there is no draws. He could have of course a set. So if you bet, he will fold worse hands, but call better hands, so sets. So if I bet enough so I give him the odds for worse hands to call, for example he may hit J , and makes JJ , betting 33% should give him the odds, as it's 1.3/0.3 -> 4 - 1 . He is more likely to get a pair than a set, so for us betting may be befenic on the long run. On the other hand, checking would be the same as folding when he has a pair, as he may be afraid of a check raise when we re out of position, and when we are on position, well the result is the same as we would check after him. What do you think of this situation?
mariussica88
Legend
Platinum Level
Finished day 12...18 to go
Really nice lesson this one. I tend to bet a lot more the river when i am facing just one opponent, but i have a question about Collins first example. If instead of 73o i would have AKo or AKs, would you guys bet on that river?
Really nice lesson this one. I tend to bet a lot more the river when i am facing just one opponent, but i have a question about Collins first example. If instead of 73o i would have AKo or AKs, would you guys bet on that river?
Oranaro
Rock Star
Bronze Level
I think that you can't bet to protect your hand here, you still may have the better hand, with A high, so if you bet, it will be a value bet, but better hands, like 45 or 56 will call. While worse hands would fold. You still have a draw with the A so it could be also a semi bluff bet. You have more reasons to bet with an A than to do not. I would bet not much, to value my high card and semi bluff. If the opponent raises I would fold, unless he raises not much, 33% would give the odds to get a K , an A or a 5 (11 outs) , so I call.
C
Chase
Rock Star
Silver Level
Another interesting lesson.
"If I bet or raise here, what better hands will fold, and what worse hands will call?"
Seems like a pretty important question and a pretty important street. I like the concept of Equity Denial though. Why wait for your opponent to make a random pair when you can bet him out of the hand on the flop or turn when you still have the best hand.
"If I bet or raise here, what better hands will fold, and what worse hands will call?"
Seems like a pretty important question and a pretty important street. I like the concept of Equity Denial though. Why wait for your opponent to make a random pair when you can bet him out of the hand on the flop or turn when you still have the best hand.
Atararo14
Visionary
Platinum Level
Day 12 finished.
Thank you for this important lesson, asking the question "If I bet or raise here, what better hands will fold, and what worse hands will call ?" is a very intelligent reaction at the river.
The quiz answer :
1. The correct play is check because it's a multi-way spot and opponents cannot call with worse hand.
Thank you for this important lesson, asking the question "If I bet or raise here, what better hands will fold, and what worse hands will call ?" is a very intelligent reaction at the river.
The quiz answer :
1. The correct play is check because it's a multi-way spot and opponents cannot call with worse hand.
Gutshot Gus
Visionary
Platinum Level
On the test Q, I think that because of having three villans that I would check it down.
I like the idea of stopping to ask yourself what will happen if I bet or raise. There will be places that you can get in an extra bet and improve your win rate!
I like the idea of stopping to ask yourself what will happen if I bet or raise. There will be places that you can get in an extra bet and improve your win rate!
jonasz warzecha
Visionary
Platinum Level
I would bet the river
No action pre flop post flop and the turn somehow would tell is big chance to put everyone on fold.
Maybe like you said that should be raise preflop and we probably would play only against A3.
No action pre flop post flop and the turn somehow would tell is big chance to put everyone on fold.
Maybe like you said that should be raise preflop and we probably would play only against A3.
