Jurn8
Legend
Silver Level
Nice reply Bob, will be good to have an experienced player like yourself in this thread aswell as others like Jagsti etc
NineLions
Advanced beginner
Silver Level
More often 3-betting OOP, especially from the blinds, and with a wider range the lower the level, and a larger size the lower the level.
I find there's a heck of a lot of players for whom 3-bet always means AA/KK so when you do 3-bet, they assume you have AA/KK and they fold. Unless you play short stacked, where they assume you have two picture cards and their Ace-rag might be good.
I find there's a heck of a lot of players for whom 3-bet always means AA/KK so when you do 3-bet, they assume you have AA/KK and they fold. Unless you play short stacked, where they assume you have two picture cards and their Ace-rag might be good.
F
feitr
Legend
Silver Level
I think it is most profitable to play quite straight foward and not worry about balancing your range at all @ micro stakes. The players simply will never ever catch on partly coz you won't have much history, but mostly because they just aren't going to be good enough to make any correct adaptions (don't think you see this until at least nl100). So that means you 3B light players who either have wide opening ranges and but don't call 3Bs that light and even players who have a tight range, but have a super tight 3B calling range, coz they aren't comfortable playing in 3B pots without a monster and coz since they themselves are tight, they will give your 3B alot of credit. So you should cbet all day vs ppl who will fold and you should not cbet vs a loose passive player who will never fold the flop if you know your hand is unlikely to get to showdown ahead. You should steal the blinds of a nit 100%, but not bother vs an 80/2.
But in general, i don't think you should try to 3B light until at least nl50. The main focus of a micro player IMO should be to concentrate on good straightfoward tight play, paying great attention to range analysis (preflop and every postflop street of every "player type" - for instance with what type of hands is a 40/20 fish cold calling preflop, how wide are they continuing on the flop (gutshots, bottom pair, etc.), do they fold any of their flop range on the turn and if so how much?, etc. and from this range analysis learn how to get thin value when you know villain is calling light. I wouldn't focus much on trying to bluff, coz micro stakes players leak horribly because they call too much, so you are better off learning how to get thin value and that will put you miles and miles ahead when you start to move up (and then you can focus on trying to learn how to bluff alot more, as the games get more aggressive). I can't stress how big an advantage you will have when you move up if you can play good solid ABC poker and extract thin value from bad players. You need a solid basis before you want to start adding "big plays" like 3 street bluffs, etc.
pantin007
member
Silver Level
5nl, 10nl and 25nl
JimmyBrizzy
Visionary
Silver Level
Im sure 2NL counts too?!?!?!?!?!?!
Haha, AWESOME idea Jurn!!!!!!!
Took out most of my funds after playing up to 10NL 6-max, but grinding it back up from 2NL and now some 5NL FR, so anyone in the same boat who wants to talk let me know.
Haha, AWESOME idea Jurn!!!!!!!
Took out most of my funds after playing up to 10NL 6-max, but grinding it back up from 2NL and now some 5NL FR, so anyone in the same boat who wants to talk let me know.
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
I was playing 10NL today and made a 3-bet bluff.
Villain was in middle position and opened for 3BB
I re-raised AJs from late position.
Everyone else folded.
The villain called.
Now from the way he was playing, he was very tight. He was happy to open with looser hands in middle but would only call with something very strong like AK, QQ, JJ
He would reraise with AA, KK
So I reraised because I felt that I could read him. Had he reraised I was out of there!
Now came the flop A 6 xs
So here I had TP and a backdoor flush draw.
He checks to me and I raise 3/4 pot. He reraises.
Now I am very sure he has AK so my pair is no good. The flush is a real long shot.
I should really fold but I decide to make a play and raise all-in
The guy asks if I made a set of 6's.
He thinks and thinks and the time bank almost runs out. He then calls.
The turn and river were blanks so he wins.
He comments that he was genuinely surprised to have won that hand, and was seriously considering laying it down.
Everyone at the table berated my play .. started asking if I even knew how to play poker etc etc.
However I am glad I made this play, and vow never to do it again!!
The reason is this.
1). Firstly the guy was predictable.. I knew exactly what he had by the flop.
2). I had been playing the table for about an hour and a half.. and my table image was pretty solid.
3). If anyone was going to make that lay down.. it was this guy.. so I have proved to myself that trying to bluff someone off a hand in 10NL is not a good idea.
4.) I have also figured that had I hit a set and made the same big raise.. it would also have been called, so playing passively after the flop to prevent loosing customers isn't always necessary!!
5.) What exactly was I representing anyway? This made me think too.. a set of 6's A set of A's?? Had I had that hand.. I wouldn't have played it that way anyway.. so the 'story of the hand' didn't really make any sense either!
So I think by making the move .. I learned quite a bit.. as for the money.. within an hour I was in profit again!!
What made me chuckle a little was the vigor with which people commented on my play.. it was as though by highlighting the faults, they were somehow better players. I said nothing as I don't chat!!!.
Now I am sure that kind of play works at higher levels.. although the crafting of my bluff was poor.. but at 10NL, its not a profitable move.
Villain was in middle position and opened for 3BB
I re-raised AJs from late position.
Everyone else folded.
The villain called.
Now from the way he was playing, he was very tight. He was happy to open with looser hands in middle but would only call with something very strong like AK, QQ, JJ
He would reraise with AA, KK
So I reraised because I felt that I could read him. Had he reraised I was out of there!
Now came the flop A 6 xs
So here I had TP and a backdoor flush draw.
He checks to me and I raise 3/4 pot. He reraises.
Now I am very sure he has AK so my pair is no good. The flush is a real long shot.
I should really fold but I decide to make a play and raise all-in
The guy asks if I made a set of 6's.
He thinks and thinks and the time bank almost runs out. He then calls.
The turn and river were blanks so he wins.
He comments that he was genuinely surprised to have won that hand, and was seriously considering laying it down.
Everyone at the table berated my play .. started asking if I even knew how to play poker etc etc.
However I am glad I made this play, and vow never to do it again!!
The reason is this.
1). Firstly the guy was predictable.. I knew exactly what he had by the flop.
2). I had been playing the table for about an hour and a half.. and my table image was pretty solid.
3). If anyone was going to make that lay down.. it was this guy.. so I have proved to myself that trying to bluff someone off a hand in 10NL is not a good idea.
4.) I have also figured that had I hit a set and made the same big raise.. it would also have been called, so playing passively after the flop to prevent loosing customers isn't always necessary!!
5.) What exactly was I representing anyway? This made me think too.. a set of 6's A set of A's?? Had I had that hand.. I wouldn't have played it that way anyway.. so the 'story of the hand' didn't really make any sense either!
So I think by making the move .. I learned quite a bit.. as for the money.. within an hour I was in profit again!!
What made me chuckle a little was the vigor with which people commented on my play.. it was as though by highlighting the faults, they were somehow better players. I said nothing as I don't chat!!!.
Now I am sure that kind of play works at higher levels.. although the crafting of my bluff was poor.. but at 10NL, its not a profitable move.
Mase31683
Legend
Silver Level
I'm a 6max $25nl player. My 3bets are pretty standardized in that if I am in position, I'm 3betting to 3x the original raise, unless it was an unusually small raise to begin with in which case I'll make it larger.
If I'm oop, then I'm making it 4x, as a fold becomes a nicer proposition in contrast to playing a big pot oop.
If I'm oop, then I'm making it 4x, as a fold becomes a nicer proposition in contrast to playing a big pot oop.
S
switch0723
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
I dont mind the 3 bet, but you pretty much have to 100% check the flop back, since villains range is like JJ,QQ,AQ and AK, villains will only call a flop bet with AQ or AK, so i check the flop. As for the shove, it is unbelievably horrific, a tight nit has check/raised in a 3 bet pot, your a,j is never ever good here and villain is never ever folding to a shove with a huge portion of his stack in and he is only afraid of pocket Aces
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
^^^^
What you wont understand from just reading the post is just how tight and predictable this guy was.
I'm not defending the play.. but I felt that if such a play were to have any chance then this was the time.. so i tried it. It didnt work so I'm happy to move on.
I knew he had AK.. (when I say I knew he had AK.. I dont mean he had a hand like AK, or AK was in his range.. I knew he had exactly AK.. this guy was extremely predictable) and yet the way he had played.. it was very possible that he might fold it!! - I just wanted to find out if someone who plays like this could be made to fold such a hand.
He even commented thet he was seriously considering calling it and took the full time bank to make up his mind.
What you wont understand from just reading the post is just how tight and predictable this guy was.
I'm not defending the play.. but I felt that if such a play were to have any chance then this was the time.. so i tried it. It didnt work so I'm happy to move on.
I knew he had AK.. (when I say I knew he had AK.. I dont mean he had a hand like AK, or AK was in his range.. I knew he had exactly AK.. this guy was extremely predictable) and yet the way he had played.. it was very possible that he might fold it!! - I just wanted to find out if someone who plays like this could be made to fold such a hand.
He even commented thet he was seriously considering calling it and took the full time bank to make up his mind.
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
No - this guy was afraid of pretty much everything!! Thats why I risked the shove..
Its not something I would normally do.. I just wanted to see what would happen. Had he snap called... well he wouldnt .. thats the point.. even with AK, this guy was afraid of a set.
What I learned from this was that even someone this fearfull cant be pushed off a hand.. I hadnt come across someone like this before.. so I wanted to see what he would do.
Jagsti
I'm sweet enough!
Silver Level
Excellent advice imo. No need for FPS at these stakes. Just solid poker is enough, I'm sure to get you guys up the limits asap. Keep things simple guys!
JimmyBrizzy
Visionary
Silver Level
Great advice Feitr!
I agree 100% from what I've seen....I think there was a post on understanding thin value not too long ago.
A great majority of time I'm only 3-betting is with a monster, or from the blinds with a decent hand on a player that is stealing often and knows it.
No real need to balance your 3-bet range at these levels, you'll probably just be overthinking and screwing yourself over.
I agree 100% from what I've seen....I think there was a post on understanding thin value not too long ago.
A great majority of time I'm only 3-betting is with a monster, or from the blinds with a decent hand on a player that is stealing often and knows it.
No real need to balance your 3-bet range at these levels, you'll probably just be overthinking and screwing yourself over.
F
feitr
Legend
Silver Level
Ok here is some advice. Unfortunately almost everything you said there was the opposite of what you should be thinking.
Initial 3B - you already say that you know that if he calls your 3B you are crushed by his range AQ+, JJ+ or whatever). So by 3Bing all you are doing is putting alot of money in the pot with a heavily dominated hand vs villain's range. Hopefully it should be obvious to you that this is really really bad. If you want to play AJ vs somebody like this you can only flat call, because AJ fairs much better vs villain's opening range than vs his 3B OOP flatting range (which we know crushes you). So you say you 3B to "see where he is at" (and fwiw THIS IS THE MOST IDIOTIC POKER CLICHE EVER CREATED) so why are you doing it with a goodish, but not great hand? You are better off reraising him with 78s, because you aren't ever going to be in a kicker dominated position and it is alot easier to know how good your hand is postflop. The value in 3Bing here is that we think we can get villain to fold enough of his range to make the 3B profitable, not that we do it with a hand that is crushed by villain's 3B calling range but is going to be hard to get away from if we flop a pair.
Now mistake number 2. Don't bet the flop. You shouldn't even be in this situation but since we know villain is never going to have AT or worse here and isn't going to call more than one street with an underpair (presumably), betting the flop accomplishes nothing.
So mistake number 3. You get reraised, know villain almost certainly has AQ/AK and is not folding, but yet you shove. Good rule of thumb is too assume that nobody is ever in a million billion trillion years going to fold TPTK in a 3B pot especially not when TP is a pair of aces. Trying to make somebody fold TPTK in a 3B pot is probably the most -EV thing you could possibly do. You can't ever represent 66 here, it ilooks more like a spaz shove because you don't want to fold TP, IMO. Almost nobody reraises 66 preflop, and nobody would ever give you credit for a set in a 3B pot (think about it - 3 combos of a hand that is almost certainly not in your preflop range). Your hand looks exactly like what it is (AQ or AJ).
Hopefully that clears some things up about the thought processes you should be using. It is good you are thinking through your mistakes tho and trying to not repeat them.
S93
Legend
Silver Level
I agree there isn't much need to balance your 3bet range but that doesn't mean u cant 3bet light profitable.
For example there are plenty of players at 10NL that will open light but have a fold to 3bet % of 90 and fold to c-bet of 80%.
These are player u can 3bet basically with ATC profitable.....
bob_tiger
Legend
Silver Level
If you think about it, in villains eyes the hand that shoves on flop would be some sort of A with a weak kicker trying to take it down on flop. I'm not saying nobody ever plays their hand fast but in villains eyes you are only shoving weak Ace. On a dry flop like that not many people would shove a set as you said you wouldn't play a set like that. Shoving a set there would be a play against someone we know very well like so if you knew he had that AK, then shoving a set here would of been a good play.
Dwilius
CardsChat Regular
Silver Level
I'm using the free (voluntary donation) Realtime for now, think Sindri and dg do too. Its from the maker of HEM and he can credit a donation up to $20 to the purchase of HEM when you want to upgrade.
I find myself playing 5nl, though I'm overrolled for 10nl :dong:. Want to move up to 25nl, but losing stacks bigger than that would make me sick to my stomach :s: In other words, I should be a regular in this section for quite a while
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I find myself playing 5nl, though I'm overrolled for 10nl :dong:. Want to move up to 25nl, but losing stacks bigger than that would make me sick to my stomach :s: In other words, I should be a regular in this section for quite a while
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bob_tiger
Legend
Silver Level
Right thats what I was saying, it can be even weaker than that. Like sindri said, I know many people will come raising with weak A when its folded to them and fold to a 3-bet because they are scared to play post flop, those are the people we want to 3-bet light. And then there are people who will raise with those weak A hands and then flat, we also love them and can C-bet almost any flop and make very nice profit in long run. I'm not saying we need to be fancy or anything since feit said people tend to call way too much and solid ABC poker is very profitable, but those are the plays we can use once we are the table for a good 30 minutes or so and have an idea of how people play.
bob_tiger
Legend
Silver Level
I'm using the free (voluntary donation) Realtime for now, think Sindri does too. Its from the maker of HEM and he can credit a donation up to $20 to the purchase of HEM when you want to upgrade.
I find myself playing 5nl, though I'm overrolled for 10nl :dong:. Want to move up to 25nl this year, but losing stacks bigger than that would make me sick to my stomach :s: In other words, I should be a regular in this section for quite a while
Man it really shouldn't be about the money. You have to play your game no matter how much money is at stake.