Logic and Hand Reading (Day 18 Course Discussion)

[ronn6583]

I understand correctly, players can enter the game preflop with any hands (depending on the style of the game), and here the key point will be the size of the bets.
If you have a small raise and call, you can expect any preflop cards on hand. If you raise and re-raise with a subsequent call, then these are already quite strong hands.
On other streets, everything will depend on how you hit the board and how likely it is to strengthen your existing hand.
And here the size of bets will be important for narrowing the range of hands of the opponent.

 

[BentleyBoy]

A great session both in the book and the video.

In the second example hand where hero has 84o and is heads up against the BB who eventually shows Q9o, it would be interesting to run a session with the hero having Q9 and villain 84o in the BB and see how hand analysis and how hero should play his Q9o.

I will give some thought and get on over to the odds calculator to run it through using what I have learned so far.

Thanks

BB

 

[marvinsytan]

Need to practice my hand reading skills, right now im at 2/10. Just lost at Final Table final 3 because I forgot to put my opponent hands on flush draw he called me twice and I checked river because i have showdown value but I chicken out to call his 30% river bet. I have top pair on the flop with flush draw in board. Opponent showed me busted flush draw. Damn

 

[Collin Moshman]

I think hand reading is one of my biggest strengths. This is one of the first videos, where I had the same thought process as you Collin the whole way through. It's really just an extension of the Day 3 - ranges video.

That busted flush example is usually a pretty easy one to spot and happened earlier today to me. I had trips and he made a huge donk bet on the river, which was very easy to call because I narrowed his range down.

Nice call! You're right for sure, this topic ties in very nicely with Day 3.

Need to practice my hand reading skills, right now im at 2/10. Just lost at Final Table final 3 because I forgot to put my opponent hands on flush draw he called me twice and I checked river because i have showdown value but I chicken out to call his 30% river bet. I have top pair on the flop with flush draw in board. Opponent showed me busted flush draw. Damn

Don't worry Marvin, just learn from it and move on. You are taking exactly the right lesson here, which is that you should bluff-catch facing a bet when draws have missed. You'll get him next time!

 

[zam220]

Hand reading comes with game experience! The first three years of the game I didn’t even try to do this, but played on my own hand! Without thinking what the opponent may have! A very important aspect of the game is reading the hands of the opponent!

 

[lollipopas]

I'm trying to improve my hand reading. Very helpful examples in the video. I did get the quiz question right, but the hand reviews before the quiz, I would not have figured out in the moment.
In the first example (where hero has KT), you don't believe they have a set because they would have raised earlier? What is your thinking about AT? It might make sense, right? But it's just since it's only 1 hand, the probability of it being this exact hand is low so we're not afraid of it?
Same with AA?
And then JQ with a flush draw is just too special as well, and with JQ they wouldn't call earlier bets, right?

 

[Collin Moshman]

I'm trying to improve my hand reading. Very helpful examples in the video. I did get the quiz question right, but the hand reviews before the quiz, I would not have figured out in the moment.
In the first example (where hero has KT), you don't believe they have a set because they would have raised earlier? What is your thinking about AT? It might make sense, right? But it's just since it's only 1 hand, the probability of it being this exact hand is low so we're not afraid of it?
Same with AA?
And then JQ with a flush draw is just too special as well, and with JQ they wouldn't call earlier bets, right?

Let’s take KT as an example.

A set is definitely possible, but there are only 6 of these for him to have (besides final KK combo). Since he also didn’t raise earlier like you said, the combination of his passive line with the few set combos he could have make the busted draw the most likely.

Remember with this and the other examples, you never know for sure! He could have a straight, set, king, or nothing. We’re just figuring out what we think is most likely based on how all streets have gone.

 

[Good Man]

I realized during the hand that the opponent's hand ranges may remain the same or narrow, but they cannot expand.
Also, when a thinking player chooses the range of hands they want to play, they turn on logic. It takes into account such factors as: stack depth; position; players sitting behind their backs, etc. They will decide which hand is worth continuing with against the counter-bet, or which hand is worth the value-bet. This means that if I can penetrate and understand the opponent's logic, I can read their hands very well.
Another point I think is to learn and adapt, it is better to take into account this new information received (when the opponent shows us his hand at the showdown) and just adjust accordingly your approach to reading this opponent's hands in the future.





Life is a game , play beautiful

__________________

 

[Collin Moshman]

I realized during the hand that the opponent's hand ranges may remain the same or narrow, but they cannot expand.
Also, when a thinking player chooses the range of hands they want to play, they turn on logic. It takes into account such factors as: stack depth; position; players sitting behind their backs, etc. They will decide which hand is worth continuing with against the counter-bet, or which hand is worth the value-bet. This means that if I can penetrate and understand the opponent's logic, I can read their hands very well.
Another point I think is to learn and adapt, it is better to take into account this new information received (when the opponent shows us his hand at the showdown) and just adjust accordingly your approach to reading this opponent's hands in the future.



Life is a game , play beautiful

__________________

That's great how you put it: An opponent's range can narrow, but it shouldn't expand. Exactly.

 

[carmenzu]

I loved this chapter, as well as I liked the one on the range, I appreciate these lessons a lot, they change our way of seeing the opponent, now we analyze their "personality in poker" more in depth

A very important lesson.
Thanks a lot.

 

[Phyrrura]

Good one!

Nice class, now I just need to keep training and training 'till I can figure out when to win lots of money busting some bluffers.

 

[Collin Moshman]

I loved this chapter, as well as I liked the one on the range, I appreciate these lessons a lot, they change our way of seeing the opponent, now we analyze their "personality in poker" more in depth

A very important lesson.
Thanks a lot.

Glad to hear that Carmenzu!

 

[imnoobpoker]

Good training day again! Thank you so much for the information. People can "read" hands due to experience. After seeing so many hands, you can calculate a bit what kind of range somebody is. Think the rule here is: Stay focused in the game to read all the signs. Let's go to day 19!

 

[Collin Moshman]

Good training day again! Thank you so much for the information. People can "read" hands due to experience. After seeing so many hands, you can calculate a bit what kind of range somebody is. Think the rule here is: Stay focused in the game to read all the signs. Let's go to day 19!

Thanks! And very well said. Sometimes top players can't do a great job articulating their hand reading process, but the experience counts for a lot. You can make a solid effort to match them by being observant and vocalizing the deductions you're making.

 

[xOneCoolHandx]

Quiz

Of the hands that you gave TT is most likely, but I think there is a strong possibility that it is also AK (not an option)..I have seen a lot of players 3 bet with AK and then check (usually to check call) when OOP with AK and if it checks around, they lead the turn as a bluff because they think no one has anything.

 

[perrypip]

Tracking software can really help with hand reading.

For example if a player 3 bets only 3% of the time you know he's 3-betting a very tight range. Maybe JJ+ and AK.

OTOH if he 3 bets 10% that's a very wide range you know he 3 bets light. A heat map can also show whether he 3 bets a polarized range or not.

If he flat calls you, you can use his VPIP and 3 bet stats (or heat maps) to put him on a capped range.

 

[Collin Moshman]

Tracking software can really help with hand reading.

For example if a player 3 bets only 3% of the time you know he's 3-betting a very tight range. Maybe JJ+ and AK.

OTOH if he 3 bets 10% that's a very wide range you know he 3 bets light. A heat map can also show whether he 3 bets a polarized range or not.

If he flat calls you, you can use his VPIP and 3 bet stats (or heat maps) to put him on a capped range.

Great point Perry, particularly if you have at least a couple hundred hands and feel confident the 3bet stat is fairly accurate.

 

[eberetta1]

Hand reading is what made me a fan of Negreanu. He does not have to be right all the time, but when he is on target, it is a cool thing.

The other thing I like about Kid Poker, which is the opposite of me, is he starts chatterboxing way more when he has a good hand. It reminds an auctioneer looking in the crowd for a higher bid before he says bidding is closed, sold to the highest bidder. When I get a good hand, lots of time I will go into quiet mode. When Negreanu starts talking, I would be looking at folding.

 

[barbados]

All right, guys. I thought that reading the range of hands is allowed only to palmists and clairvoyants. But in this lecture you show that it is possible for everyone. I'll take note of that. And I'm going to practice today. Thanks!

 

[mariussica88]

Finished Day 18...12 to go

I do believe that when we master the Hand Reading then we ( us beginners or recreational players that tend to became more then that ) will become wining poker players. Enjoyed this lesson a lot.

 

[Oranaro]

I have a question about some unpredictable plays, that usually could be a trap or a bluff, mainly limping polarised hands. They could go for double barrel flop and river, and I suppose that with no bluff catchers it's obvious we shouldn't continue but what if we have a good hand, or a bluff catcher? Usually it's played that way with made hands on flop, or turn, high pairs, straights or flushes, sometimes three of a kind.

 

[Chase]

This lesson to me truly is the secret of the poker magicians.

Hand selection is good, but once the flop is out all bets are off. Aggression is good, but only goes so far when the other guy has you beat or is willing to go all the way with his draw (which he inevitably makes). bluffing is good, period, till it isn't anymore.

But hand reading and logic. Yes, that's the secret sauce! This is what I will spend most of my time working to develop and refine.

 

[Atararo14]

Finished day 18

I find this lesson to be exciting. How beautiful it is to guess the opponent's hand !

The quiz answers :

1. Small blind 3-bet preflop means he has a strong hand most of the time but his check on the flop shows a bit of hesitation as there is a flush draw and a possible straight draw.

In my opinion, if small bling has AA, KK or even QQ he mostly bets for value against all draws and against Qx, but when he checks I see the most likely hand he can have is a pair lower than JJ, because we block JJ. The best bottom pair to JJ is TT.

2. It's obvious to call on the turn because the opponent knows the other players don't have Q, so he can raise with his middle pair. Here we often have the best hand hoping that he checks on the river because we have showdown value and we don't need to increase the pot.

 

[Eduard0Felipe]

Putting your opponent in a range of hands, that's a theme that I didn't even apply until recently, a fundamental theme, positioning your opponents in a range, you can easily extract value, whether by betting or checking, it can reduce your lost disadvantages too, thank you again for another fantastic class!


18/30.

 

[Gutshot Gus]

The point that came across to me was that you have to pay attention to what's going on. There's a story being told and you may be able to read it .
On the test Q, I felt like the villain bet out on the turn hoping for me to fold. I would call him down and maybe even raise him there to see if he will fold. I did not have him on a strong hand and did not expect a big river showdown.