The Guide to Pre-Flop (Day 6 Course Discussion)

[Debi]

You will play every hand pre-flop and in this Guide to Pre-Flop on Day 6 you will learn how important position is in determining your action.

If you have not yet read Day 6 and watched the video for Day 6 - take a few minutes now to do that and then come back here to discuss it:

The Guide to Pre-Flop

Katie reviews all of the factors you need to consider when playing pre-flop and when you should take more risks. She even explains how to read ranges. I found this chapter to be a great refresher and reminder to myself about making good decisions pre-flop. I won my league game after reviewing Day 6.

Remembering to calculate the effective stack was a concept I learned from Katie 10 years ago when I first started playing live poker.

Feel free to ask Katie and Collin any questions you have about pre-flop play - and engage in discussion with other players right here in this thread.

 

[onecardsteve]

Great Video, the one thing I see in $1/2 play is hand ranges are much wider than the usual list of hands you could put a player on. I see Aces being limped in as well as Ks. this makes it very difficult to put some players on the what you could call general hand ranges. The game has changed immensely, I try to keep the 3P's in mind
Patience, Position , and Percentages

 

[Polytarp]

Good video. Here are some aspects of pre-flop play that I consider:
without looking at my hand (if I'm in position) I look at who is in the hand, their chip stacks and initial bets then I estimate their card ranges (both prior and present to correlate their action) THEN I look at my hand and estimate my chances based on card strength, chip strength and table presence based on being caught in bluffs and making over bets when winning with strong cards.
Katie, for KJo when you said "King Jack off" that could be used for trash talk also (which I have done selectively). It's memorable and helps retain information about such hands..I usually use KJu where the "u" refers to "unsuited." A key concept that you mentioned was "what can you lose in a given hand?" Further, what would it mean to lose/win such a hand as the game progresses relative to your chip stack? In an STT I'm always thinking ahead to figure out how to eliminate players stronger than I am..either through weaker players or taking stronger players on directly so every hand is mitigated by surviving with enough chips to take out the smart ones...which may take several tries. It helps if other players have been bruised by a particular player and everyone may gang up on such a player (and conversely) which alters a game flow dramatically.
Statistically in any pre-flop situation, I try to be aware of a typical board texture (it has a card range too!) and the assumption that for every five players at least one will have an Ace. So when I'm looking at my hand I try to factor in all of the prior random board distributions and the cards that have been displayed. As in the "long run" there is an expectation of particular distributions (..ie. the straight flush you've never seen for several years..etc..), is this a valid consideration?

 

[Collin Moshman]

Poly, I think that some card distribution / removal effect considerations are over-complicating things at the low-stakes games. But some are definitely good. The best use I have for this is bluffing with blockers, or for sure, if you have many opponents on an ace-high it's a good assumption that one player is likely to hold an ace.

 

[Luvart]

Finished Day #6.

The basics of preflop hand selection.

This was the first pure strategy course, and it was extremely important. I will study it furthermore, because bad preflop play = a losing tournament player.

I will give my answer to the question:

-Effective stack: 23bb (Coolman20000's stack).

:icon_stud

 

[tagece]

One more good lesson. The concept of effective stack is presented very clearly. I read about that before, but never gave too much attention for it. It's the difference between knowing the meaning and really knowing the meaning of a term.
I have a question about attacking the limpers. I made a post here about it, but would like to know your opinion.

I like to play single table sit and go. I use to play 0,50 and 1,50 ones more often.
Every time I tried to use this strategy to punish the limpers, like some people say, it rarely worked. Sometimes I have 3 limpers, raise 5 BB and everybody calls. I think if I raise 10 BBs the result would probably be the same.

There is any way to use this strategy in micro stakes? If I have just a good hand, not a spectacular one, should I limp and acting after flop or raise in this situation, considering that I probably would only increase the pot and maybe making some player after me fold?

 

[Luvart]

Carelessness creates mistakes.

Of course, the effective stack is MP's stack of 78bb.

For the bonus questions:

i)I would just limp behind with pocket deuces.
ii)I would muck this hand.
iii)I would raise to 5bb with KQs.

 

[MattRyder]

How to play when you're never dealt playable hands? In a cash game, it's simple - you sit and wait or you leave.

But my question relates to tournaments. I'm sure I'm not alone, when I say that some tourneys you just rarely get the first-in hands that you mention in the book, at least not till you're so short it doesn't matter anymore. Typically what happens is you're dealt something playable, you 2X - 3X open, you're called by one or two or three players, you miss the flop, you try a semi-bluff as/when appropriate, that fails, you lose. Do that a couple of times and you're so short that the rest of the game is pretty much predetermined.

I won't ask if this ever happens to you (since I know it does). My question for Collin or Katie is what percentage of tournaments do you play where you never make it to the money simply because you're just not getting the cards, and when you do - they fizzle, you get short, and you lose?

 

[Collin Moshman]

Thanks Tagece! Yes you can still use this strategy in micro-stakes, in fact that's the main area we designed this course for. The key point is that you're content to get called.

For example, let's say that you have KJs on the button and raise to 5bb after two limpers. If they fold, great. But if they both call, then you're playing with a strong hand (you likely hold an equity advantage) and position. So it will be a winning approach even against calling stations so long as you don't take it too far.

If you have a hand like 87s for example, then go ahead and limp behind. But raise your strong hands with position!

 

[Collin Moshman]

Matt, sometimes that happens to everyone, you just get bad hand after bad hand. Don't worry! Just play your best. If you have a profitable situation to get involved with, like playing a strong hand or attacking a weak opponent with a junky hand, then do it. Otherwise fold and move on to the next one even if you've been folding a lot. The system works in the long run even if sometimes you spend a tourney mostly folding

 

[tagece]

Thanks Tagece! Yes you can still use this strategy in micro-stakes, in fact that's the main area we designed this course for. The key point is that you're content to get called.

For example, let's say that you have KJs on the button and raise to 5bb after two limpers. If they fold, great. But if they both call, then you're playing with a strong hand (you likely hold an equity advantage) and position. So it will be a winning approach even against calling stations so long as you don't take it too far.

If you have a hand like 87s for example, then go ahead and limp behind. But raise your strong hands with position!

Thank you for your kindness in answering me again, Colin. I tend to limp behind speculative hands in these situations, but I've been told that this was wrong. It's good to hear it.

 

[jeanpierre1279]

Day 6 - The Guide to Pre-Flop

Excellent this chapter for a better understanding of exactly where or the player is in the game.

It was great to observe the level of blinds in the case of an effective stack because we will know how to get into the hands that are sometimes common, but which can generate excellent pots.

Regarding the ranges, I recognize that I am terrible at memorizing tables, but with experience and study it will be a natural thing. It is not a cast concept, but it helps a lot, especially in intermediate and final stages where the high stacks and blinds are about to swallow you up.

Good luck e Let's move foward.:aetsch:

 

[magistrant420]

if pocket deuces I`m fold.
if call. I`m want to see flop.
if KQs - raise 2.5-3bb.

 

[Katie Dozier]

Excellent this chapter for a better understanding of exactly where or the player is in the game.

It was great to observe the level of blinds in the case of an effective stack because we will know how to get into the hands that are sometimes common, but which can generate excellent pots.

Regarding the ranges, I recognize that I am terrible at memorizing tables, but with experience and study it will be a natural thing. It is not a cast concept, but it helps a lot, especially in intermediate and final stages where the high stacks and blinds are about to swallow you up.

Good luck e Let's move foward.:aetsch:

Thanks very much, JeanPierre!

 

[PsychoVas]

Finished Day #6.

The basics of preflop hand selection.

This was the first pure strategy course, and it was extremely important. I will study it furthermore, because bad preflop play = a losing tournament player.

I will give my answer to the question:

-Effective stack: 23bb (Coolman20000's stack).

:icon_stud

Watch the video again.


Nice breakdown of terms, Katie!
To my taste your opening ranges are slightly on the loose side, but I'm a renouned nit.
KQs is a very strong hand with great post-flop potential, even if the limpers call the raise and we go multiway.
A6o up to A9o I would fold. A2s up to A9s I would overlimp, kinda "flush mining".

 

[pip77]

if pocket deuces I`m fold.
if call. I`m want to see flop.
if KQs - raise 2.5-3bb.

What's your thinking about folding 22?

The way I see it is to call as I would be getting good odds to call on a hand that if hits a 2 on the flop will likely get me a big pot.If I miss the 2, then I shut down.

The only way I would fold here is if the players left to act are likely to re-raise.

 

[pip77]

When I used to play sng the starting ranges I had was a lot tighter in the early positions. This was before antes on stars though and also a good few years ago.

I suppose the reason for a wider RFI starting hands is due to the antes.

 

[magistrant420]

I don’t know how to play these small pocket pairs ((((when they are in my hands - I fold. My statistics show that I am doing the right thing. They can be played by limping better.

Что ты думаешь о фолде 22?

Я вижу, что это колл, так как у меня были бы хорошие шансы для колла на руке, которая, если попадет на 2 на флопе, скорее всего, принесет мне большой банк. Если я пропущу 2, то я закроюсь.

Единственный способ, которым я мог бы сбросить здесь, - это если игроки, оставленные для действия, могут ре-рейзить.

 

[Collin Moshman]

What's your thinking about folding 22?

The way I see it is to call as I would be getting good odds to call on a hand that if hits a 2 on the flop will likely get me a big pot.If I miss the 2, then I shut down.

The only way I would fold here is if the players left to act are likely to re-raise.

You can often play 22 pre-flop, including sometimes from any position if stacks are deep. Otherwise you will want to be opening this hand in late position or getting good implied odds to setmine.

You're right that it's often easy to play 22 in a multiway pot -- just fold when you don't hit that beautiful 2

 

[cferdi]

Good video. Here are some aspects of pre-flop play that I consider:
(..ie. the straight flush you've never seen for several years..etc..), is this a valid consideration?

had one the other day

 

[cferdi]

Another great chapter! I think my range is slightly tighter, but it was great to see a range for the Small Blind. I find range guides often omit the blinds altogether and I sometimes struggle to know what to do there (do I follow EP or LP?)

Once again, thanks for the amazing content - and all this for free! wow:elefant:

 

[belizebum]

How to play when you're never dealt playable hands? In a cash game, it's simple - you sit and wait or you leave.

But my question relates to tournaments. I'm sure I'm not alone, when I say that some tourneys you just rarely get the first-in hands that you mention in the book, at least not till you're so short it doesn't matter anymore. Typically what happens is you're dealt something playable, you 2X - 3X open, you're called by one or two or three players, you miss the flop, you try a semi-bluff as/when appropriate, that fails, you lose. Do that a couple of times and you're so short that the rest of the game is pretty much predetermined.

I won't ask if this ever happens to you (since I know it does). My question for Collin or Katie is what percentage of tournaments do you play where you never make it to the money simply because you're just not getting the cards, and when you do - they fizzle, you get short, and you lose?

Sounds like the league games to me...lol

 

[belizebum]

I use specific range sheets which I keep handy. For the most part they work nicely for preflop. The range you specified is definitely wider than mine. I do try to throw in some wider ranges on occasion. I also agree with Matt, sometimes the cards just are not there and you can only bluff so many times.

 

[MattRyder]

Sounds like the league games to me...lol

That's for sure!

 

[Marcelobp]

Great video. I´m learning about poker and is this video guide me to understand better about pre´flop.