Team CardsChat Little One For One Drop Rail Thread WSOP 2014

[Matt Vaughan]

You still are going to lose a lot, and that doesn't mean you should be satisfied with failure, but you should realize that if you've for example not cashed in 10 tournaments in a row (which in live tournaments for some people can be like an entire year's worth) you could still be doing everything right and just running bad.

Shoutout to me (it's up to 11 now lol)

But yeah basically 100% in agreement with hack here.

 

[Lheticus]

There is a difference between having a positive attitude and having unrealistic expectations. I've been grinding tourneys about 6 years now and I've finally learned you can't set yourself up for the emotional highs and lows that come along with expecting specific results from 1 particular tourney.

Yes, you should believe you can win and try to win. But it would be a very brutal, disappointing and depressing poker existence if you truly expected to win each tourney you entered.

There's that phrase "expect to win" again. I don't expect I WILL win in advance, I never intended to say that. What I expect is that I CAN win. In the (numerous) instances that I don't, I pick myself up and try again like everyone else, but what I DON'T do is pat myself on the back for a performance that didn't deliver.

My point was I'm not aiming for any one thing, I'm aiming for making the best decisions possible and other than certain icm situations am aiming for making the most +chipEV decisions possible. I am fully aware victory is possible and I am obviously always aiming for it.

Honestly though, a lot of this is the reason I play cash games. In cash games the hard work you put in is a lot more correlated with success. In cash games if I get lucky in 10 hands and unlucky in 10 hands, they even out. In tournaments getting lucky one than unlucky one 10 different times is just as bad as getting unlucky 10 times in a row, while getting lucky 10 times in a row is what it means to go deep in a tournament.

But I do play some tournaments. I just think it's important to realize what good decisions get you in tournaments. There is a probability distribution related to each player in the tournament. Making better decisions increases the expected value related to that probability distribution for you. You still are going to lose a lot, and that doesn't mean you should be satisfied with failure, but you should realize that if you've for example not cashed in 10 tournaments in a row (which in live tournaments for some people can be like an entire year's worth) you could still be doing everything right and just running bad.

So yeah when I play poker, whether it's live or online, cash or tournaments, I'm trying to make the best decisions possible to increase my ev. In tournaments that means giving me a better roi, in cash it means giving me a better winrate. If I continue to make good decisions throughout, I will have done all I can do. In the long run that will lead to more cashes, more final tables, and more wins. I just think "aiming" for something in particular that you will most likely not achieve is just sort of counter to the psychological state you want to be in, when instead you should be focusing on making good decisions rather than being results oriented. Hopefully that made sense.

I've heard this "+ev above all" stance from others on this forum, and it seems to be a common one among cash game players--and a very good one to have for cash games, I might add. But the fact is, for a reason you yourself have alluded to, the significance of EV in a tournament setting is significantly diminished compared to cash games. You can get unlucky ONE TIME, and that's it, game over, arrivederci. A scenario in which I would take an opponent for a whole bunch of chips 2/3rds of the time would have positive EV, right? But if he bets enough to put me all in, I call, and this happens to be that other time out of three, that positive EV is COMPLETELY irrelevant--I still lost, which means the ACTUAL value I got, assuming we're not through the money bubble yet, is ZERO.

I aim to play my best too--however, for me, this doesn't mean simply getting chips in with +ev every hand I can, which is almost definitely THE hugest reason I have so much trouble in cash games. You say I shouldn't be results oriented, but in a tournament, it's the results that MATTER. Of course I'm going to try to make good decisions, and place a large amount of focus on that--the two aren't mutually exclusive, here.

 

[hackmeplz]

I've heard this "+ev above all" stance from others on this forum, and it seems to be a common one among cash game players--and a very good one to have for cash games, I might add. But the fact is, for a reason you yourself have alluded to, the significance of EV in a tournament setting is significantly diminished compared to cash games. You can get unlucky ONE TIME, and that's it, game over, arrivederci. A scenario in which I would take an opponent for a whole bunch of chips 2/3rds of the time would have positive EV, right? But if he bets enough to put me all in, I call, and this happens to be that other time out of three, that positive EV is COMPLETELY irrelevant--I still lost, which means the ACTUAL value I got, assuming we're not through the money bubble yet, is ZERO.

I aim to play my best too--however, for me, this doesn't mean simply getting chips in with +ev every hand I can, which is almost definitely THE hugest reason I have so much trouble in cash games. You say I shouldn't be results oriented, but in a tournament, it's the results that MATTER. Of course I'm going to try to make good decisions, and place a large amount of focus on that--the two aren't mutually exclusive, here.

Not to be a dick but this is just completely wrong and playing with this mindset will lead you to not do very well in tournaments. ev is still important in tournaments it's just that sometimes $ev and chipev are not the same. For example if you're a shortish stack (but not super-short) on the bubble you definitely want to be avoiding flips. But it's not because you're scared of being busted out it's because the ev of winning the flip is nowhere near twice the ev of just folding. If you're ignoring ev and instead prioritizing staying in the tournament above all (for example folding when you're 2/3 to win because you might lose as in your example), you are simply playing scared money and it's the exact reason I do tell myself that even if I do everything right I am going to lose the heavy majority of the time, and that's to avoid being scared money and being terrified of busting out. You can't control the results of a flip, so focusing on it and saying "it's the results that matter" is just wrong.

 

[Lheticus]

Not to be a dick but this is just completely wrong and playing with this mindset will lead you to not do very well in tournaments. ev is still important in tournaments it's just that sometimes $ev and chipev are not the same. For example if you're a shortish stack (but not super-short) on the bubble you definitely want to be avoiding flips. But it's not because you're scared of being busted out it's because the ev of winning the flip is nowhere near twice the ev of just folding. If you're ignoring ev and instead prioritizing staying in the tournament above all (for example folding when you're 2/3 to win because you might lose as in your example), you are simply playing scared money and it's the exact reason I do tell myself that even if I do everything right I am going to lose the heavy majority of the time, and that's to avoid being scared money and being terrified of busting out. You can't control the results of a flip, so focusing on it and saying "it's the results that matter" is just wrong.

Not to be a dick, but I've already been through most of the motions of this argument already. I will fold when I'm 2/3rds to win, but if I lose, I'm out of the tournament, if I am confident I can make the money/make more money even if I don't win the hand through folding, given my current chip position. If I'm in a position where I'm not at all short stacked, I see no reason to take a risk for my ENTIRE stack when all that happens when I win is I chip up *more* when what happens when I lose is I'm out of the tournament, game over, 0 money made. There are other scenarios besides short stack as well when I will want to not pass up good EV situations, I expand on one of them in another thread I recently created. Perhaps we could continue this there. https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-poker-59/tournaments-expected-value-247552/

 

[S3mper]

I don't know what you guys are talking about I expect to win every single tournament I play in... Sometimes I thinkI'm going to win the tournaments I'm not playing in... I'm already the 2014 ME champion and I'm sitting in Iowa.. 0.o

 

[rifflemao]

Not to be a dick, but I've already been through most of the motions of this argument already.

I kind of feel like you baited us with your initial question. Would prefer that you had done it in a different thread, but it's free country.

 

[Lheticus]

I kind of feel like you baited us with your initial question. Would prefer that you had done it in a different thread, but it's free country.

I'm TRYING to do it in a different thread. Sorry. >_<

 

[JoeShowdown]

I was looking forward to the team picture being posted. I hope Elbert can tweak it so we are all visible. Thanks for trying and thanks for making a video. I loved that video you made of me in that carbon $10k added tourney in January.

Matt, you'll bink a tourney soon enough. Even I won 1 live tourney the week before Vegas so it can be done! Then went on to bomb 4 satellites and 2 wsop events! Didn't even last more than 4 hours in a satty and didn't get past level 2 in wsop
​

 

[rifflemao]

I was looking forward to the team picture being posted. I hope Elbert can tweak it so we are all visible. Thanks for trying and thanks for making a video. I loved that video you made of me in that carbon $10k added tourney in January.​

Hey Joe, I'm glad you liked the video and it was a real pleasure meeting you. I hope you can go next year too so we can all grind the Monster Stack.

Here is a brighter version of the team picture.

P.S. I really should have added some music to the rest of the video of your Carbon run. I can do that no problem if you want to upload a better version of it to your Youtube channel, or better yet the CC channel.​

 

[BearPlay]

Hey Joe, I'm glad you liked the video and it was a real pleasure meeting you. I hope you can go next year too so we can all grind the Monster Stack.

Here is a brighter version of the team picture.

P.S. I really should have added some music to the rest of the video of your Carbon run. I can do that no problem if you want to upload a better version of it to your Youtube channel, or better yet the CC channel.

You are a creative genius, Riffle! Loving the pic!

 

[joe777]

Very nice pic.

 

[blitzenfish]

Good looking crew! Thanks for making the time to forensic it Riffle.

Just a thought, I think it would be great to post to CardsChat Facebook page and do the name to face thingy for history.

Again, wtg everyone.....pleases me to see and rail and hopefully join up with ya'll one day at a circuit or maybe even Vegas,,,, big thumbs up

 

[Debi]

We will definitely be posting it in SM.

In front row from left to right:

Ryan Laplante, Katie Stone, Debi O'Neill, Anna Khait, Chris Baud

Middle row:

Kristin Ting, Nancy Birnbaum, Lisa Nichols, Elbert Pruitt, Joe Mussat, Zach Hall, Matt Vaughn

Back Row:

Shauna Madrigal, Rex Clinkscales, Carl DiVeglia III

 

[Tammy]

What a great pic! Debi, I love your purse!

 

[Debi]

What a great pic! Debi, I love your purse!

Yea it is my favorite - got it at the Coach outlet store for about $100 - reg price was over $400

 

[S3mper]

ummm, did some one forget to tell Anna Khait some one was taking the picture? She's looking the wrong way =o

 

[Matt Vaughan]

IIRC someone was doing something distracting off to the side - if you notice, Chris is facing kind of inbetween but is actually looking in the same direction as Anna lol.

@Joe: Well I've binked a live tourney before actually so ironically I'm still prob not that far below EV lifetime in tourneys lol. It still hurts to go 0/11 in a row though. Was awesome meeting you btw, along with everyone else. It's clear you're passionate about playing the game, and I feel the same way and appreciate that trait in others.

@Elbert: Beautiful job saving the picture! Link to the video/your youtube channel though? Would love to see the vid + more. Was awesome meeting you as well, and your comment about my blog frankly made my day/trip. I don't always have time to put energy into it my writing but when I do I'm very thoughtful and put a lot of work into what I write. I don't have a big readership though, so hearing that kind of positive comment means more than you can possibly know or I can possibly express.

 

[XXPXXP]

We will definitely be posting it in SM.

In front row from left to right:

Ryan Laplante, Katie Stone, Debi O'Neill, Anna Khait, Chris Baud

Middle row:

Kristin Ting, Nancy Birnbaum, Lisa Nichols, Elbert Pruitt, Joe Mussat, Zach Hall, Matt Vaughn

Back Row:

Shauna Madrigal, Rex Clinkscales, Carl DiVeglia III

Nice picture
Using photoshop to edit it...LOL

 

[rifflemao]

@Elbert: Beautiful job saving the picture! Link to the video/your youtube channel though? Would love to see the vid + more. Was awesome meeting you as well, and your comment about my blog frankly made my day/trip. I don't always have time to put energy into it my writing but when I do I'm very thoughtful and put a lot of work into what I write. I don't have a big readership though, so hearing that kind of positive comment means more than you can possibly know or I can possibly express.

Thanks Matt, added some fill light with Picasa to brighten us up. :icon_sunn I have a project to finish before I can start on the video but I hope to have it done by mid-week of next week, or maybe this weekend if I finish up the other thing early. I will get it on the CC channel along with a better version of Joe's vid and link it here.

I have thought well before the trip that you definitely live up to the "Professional Thinker" description, and your writing and hand discussions are very clear to me. I'm not a cash game specialist by any stretch so I appreciate how you think through various situations in the hands you've posted on your blog.

I enjoyed meeting and hanging out with you too, and look forward next year's adventures. Gonna be too long of a wait! Somehow I managed to get in and out of Vegas without drinking a single beer, but that's not going to happen next time. :beer:


@XXP, cool pic!


@everyone, ICYMI:

http://twitter.com/RealChrisBaud

Chris Baud is making a deep run in the WPT500 at Aria, and is staked by Melissa Burr!!

 

[BearPlay]

@Debi

What about starting a CC Event Scrapbook / Member Photos thread?

 

[Debi]

I enjoyed meeting and hanging out with you too, and look forward next year's adventures. Gonna be too long of a wait! Somehow I managed to get in and out of Vegas without drinking a single beer, but that's not going to happen next time. :beer:

I tried to get you to drink with me on the last night!

@Debi

What about starting a CC Event Scrapbook / Member Photos thread?

Great idea - will have to dig up all of the old meet-up threads!

 

[rifflemao]

I tried to get you to drink with me on the last night!

I was having another #nitcast moment, lol. It may happen again, but not about beer. Gonna try to live a little next time. :beer:

 

[S3mper]

You should of used photo shop to turn Anna 25 degrees to the left lol

It's okay though cause she looks like a cutie so I forgive her

 

[Zorba]

Nice to put faces to the names, nice pic.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Shockerz that we're talking about Anna being a cutie pie itt.

@riffle: Thanks for the flattery But yeah I seriously will need to go for more than 3 gosh darned days next time (if only so I have a chance at having a > 10bb winning cash session for once). And beer will DEFINITELY be a must!