Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[John A]

Alright, I'm having one of those epic bad runs you have as a poker player every so often. Always fun... I'm in the process of moving as well, so just a ton of things going on this summer.

Any ways, I wanted to bring up another important point since I was talking about this with someone the other day. It involved a hand where they bluffed with so-so equity OOP on not a great board. It brought up a point I like to emphasize.

Keep almost all of your bluffing to in position.

It's common sense, but it makes a huge difference. When you can apply pressure to your opponent in position, you'll get massively better results than OOP. OOP you should be playing more defensive, and only bluffing high equity spots.

That being said... no one folds anymore, so don't bluff. lol

My latest results

 

[rhombus]

All my stats for nlhe on PStars, Your stats slightly better than mine lol, I'd never ran the Leakbuster - Overall Report before I guess the vs 3BetCall % is really bad at 60.4%

Not sure if coincidence or not but i also ran the same report for just this month and its identical at 60.4%

The PFR/VPIP Ratio - I know people mention try and keep them close together, what should be an ideal range for the ratio, at a guess I'd say 70-80

 

[Figaroo2]

Your 3 betting looks much better, even a little high but I would say your 4 betting is in need of improvement.
With a 4Bet ratio of 1% (nuts only) there is no fear of getting re-popped light by you. Ideally it should be around 4%
Actually your low fold to 3 bet probably protects you from light 3 betting to some extent but is likely to be a leak as you lose the initiative in the hand.
I would say look to 4 bet or fold more in response to 3 bets especially i n position from the button and cutoff.

 

[Figaroo2]

working on my 3 betting again

I play about 50% 6 max and 50% full ring which makes my vpip look a bit odd, sort of half way between the ideals for vpip at 6 max and full ring. I know my pfr is low, I have been big time bum hunting over the last few months. There are plenty of fish to be found even at 25nl full ring if you look around.
This has affected my 3 betting stats as fish almost never fold to 3bets, so I only 3 bet for value and I often limp to get into hands with the recreational players hence the lower pfr.
I will still 4 bet light other regs with high 3 bet stats and have got much better at picking my 4 bet spots recently. I have actually been toning down my 4 betting as it was getting up towards 7-8% when I was first experimenting and leakbuster had it as my number one leak.
As i'm looking to move up to 50nl I'm trying to get better at taking on the regs. I want to be crushing 25nl before I do this.
John I'm thinking of adding 4 bet% into the hitman Hud, 4 bets stats of nuts only seems pretty standard for most players at micro/small stakes and you know you can 3 bet them fairly light and safely fold if they re pop you. I think I mentioned before as ive got away from light 3 betting it has become a problem to pull the trigger and seeing the 4bet% will help me get rid of some of the fear of being re-popped.

 

[John A]

All my stats for nlhe on Pokerstars, Your stats slightly better than mine lol, I'd never ran the Leakbuster - Overall Report before I guess the vs 3BetCall % is really bad at 60.4%

Not sure if coincidence or not but i also ran the same report for just this month and its identical at 60.4%

The PFR/VPIP Ratio - I know people mention try and keep them close together, what should be an ideal range for the ratio, at a guess I'd say 70-80

Yeah, you're calling too many 3-bets for what you're opening. Your aggression is way too low also.

PFR/VPIP ratio should usually be about 75-85%. Mine is a little low because of my style (I cold call a little more in position at these stakes). If I were playing higher, or at my normal stakes, this would probably be about 85%.

You should get leak buster honestly then. You'll find enough value it to last you a long time.

 

[rhombus]

Yeah, you're calling too many 3-bets for what you're opening. Your aggression is way too low also.

PFR/VPIP ratio should usually be about 75-85%. Mine is a little low because of my style (I cold call a little more in position at these stakes). If I were playing higher, or at my normal stakes, this would probably be about 85%.

You should get leak buster honestly then. You'll find enough value it to last you a long time.

Thanks, Believe it or not I already have leakbuster but need to learn how to use it properly as i've only really started playing cash again, mostly PLO8 & PLO MTTs for last few years

 

[rhombus]

Your 3 betting looks much better, even a little high but I would say your 4 betting is in need of improvement.
With a 4Bet ratio of 1% (nuts only) there is no fear of getting re-popped light by you. Ideally it should be around 4%
Actually your low fold to 3 bet probably protects you from light 3 betting to some extent but is likely to be a leak as you lose the initiative in the hand.
I would say look to 4 bet or fold more in response to 3 bets especially i n position from the button and cutoff.

as my stats state i only 4bet with ,monsters and never trid to 4bet bluff especially at 10nl as in my experience 99% of 4 bets will be AA KK

 

[Figaroo2]

as my stats state i only 4bet with ,monsters and never trid to 4bet bluff especially at 10nl as in my experience 99% of 4 bets will be AA KK

The point is if you 3 bet and someone with a 1% 4 bet range 4 bets you.....you can happily fold as you know what you are up against.....
That is when they are 4 betting you, not when you are 4 betting someone who has light 3 bet you from the blinds!
When you 4 bet if the villian had a hud with 4 bet displayed they know what you have and you will never get any calls unless they 3 bet you with real premium hands. They can see what you have and you lose value.
When you start 4 bet bluffing they don't know if you have the goods or not and you will get more calls and 5 bets against your premium 4 bet hands which is what you want.
So the people to 4 bet bluff are those who 3 bet too much as often they will have a polarised range and be 3 betting you with both premiums and lesser speculative hands.
You 4 bet bluff against them with hands that can still out flop them if they call like A rag.
Example say you open from the button 3bb with A4 suited. A villian in the blinds sees you hardly ever 4 bet and knowing your range is wide from the button he 3 bets you with QJ say to 10bb. (Say he has a 10% 3 bet stat or greater). You then 4 bet bluff (doubling his 3 bet sizing is usually enough) 20-25 bb. He folds.
If he had three bet you with AA rather than QJ he is probably 5 betting or shoving. You can then happily lay down your A rag hand knowing you are beat.
The hands you dont want to 4 bet are pairs 44-99, AJ AQ as if they ship on you, you are throwing away too much equity when you fold. These are the hands to 3 bet call in position.
All of this is explained in Johns workbook.....

 

[John A]

And honestly I'd say that at 25NL and below, if you're getting 4-bet, it's mostly going to be for value. Maybe a couple of your better regs might 4-bet light.

Like Fig said, if you look through the 3 and 4-betting section in polished poker, this should give you a lot of what you're need to do this successfully. When I finish the workbook for it, it will be even more clear. It's lagged a little after a fast start to it just because I've had a ton of life things going on (I'm moving to another town as I type tomorrow). It's at the top of my list as soon as I get into my new place.

But keep it simple to start. Start with the areas I talk about that are the easiest to 3 and 4-bet light, and then work out from there. It will get easier as you recognize profitable spots. A common spot that I put up in a video on this thread is 3-betting light when a reg ISO's a limper. Spots where their range will be wide, and they will be stuck in a spot of calling with a weak hand, or having to 4-bet bluff. Usually they will just fold unless they have a real hand.

Continue sticking with it guys. A lot of you are making really solid improvements and it's fun to watch. Our goal is to get everyone crushing right?

 

[John A]

Thanks, Believe it or not I already have leakbuster but need to learn how to use it properly as i've only really started playing cash again, mostly PLO8 & PLO MTTs for last few years

I hear you. And that's where the big VPIP/PFR gap comes in. You're used to cold calling a lot more or limping behind in PLO, which isn't what you want to do in no-limit holdem. It just puts a target in your back when you do. You're getting it though. Keep sticking with it and remain positive.

 

[rhombus]

Yeah, you're calling too many 3-bets for what you're opening. Your aggression is way too low also.

PFR/VPIP ratio should usually be about 75-85%. Mine is a little low because of my style (I cold call a little more in position at these stakes). If I were playing higher, or at my normal stakes, this would probably be about 85%.

You should get leak buster honestly then. You'll find enough value it to last you a long time.

When you mentioned Aggression too low was you referring to both the screenshots or the second one with 3000 hands. the one with 33000 hands 80-90% of those were from last year so prob a bad idea to post.

To get some volume ive been playing mostly Zoom poker this month

 

[rhombus]

The point is if you 3 bet and someone with a 1% 4 bet range 4 bets you.....you can happily fold as you know what you are up against.....
That is when they are 4 betting you, not when you are 4 betting someone who has light 3 bet you from the blinds!
When you 4 bet if the villian had a hud with 4 bet displayed they know what you have and you will never get any calls unless they 3 bet you with real premium hands. They can see what you have and you lose value.
When you start 4 bet bluffing they don't know if you have the goods or not and you will get more calls and 5 bets against your premium 4 bet hands which is what you want.
So the people to 4 bet bluff are those who 3 bet too much as often they will have a polarised range and be 3 betting you with both premiums and lesser speculative hands.
You 4 bet bluff against them with hands that can still out flop them if they call like A rag.
Example say you open from the button 3bb with A4 suited. A villian in the blinds sees you hardly ever 4 bet and knowing your range is wide from the button he 3 bets you with QJ say to 10bb. (Say he has a 10% 3 bet stat or greater). You then 4 bet bluff (doubling his 3 bet sizing is usually enough) 20-25 bb. He folds.
If he had three bet you with AA rather than QJ he is probably 5 betting or shoving. You can then happily lay down your A rag hand knowing you are beat.
The hands you dont want to 4 bet are pairs 44-99, AJ AQ as if they ship on you, you are throwing away too much equity when you fold. These are the hands to 3 bet call in position.
All of this is explained in Johns workbook.....

Thanks, I'll try and add more 4B Bluffs obv. against right opponent and with Position.

One question If 4bet is called you are shoving if you have any part of the flop if checked to and also calling if you have about 35-40% equity if they shove into you as the SPR will be about 1.5

 

[rhombus]

Bit of a Rollercoaster session tonight
and hand below was it a nitty fold and should I have Cbet flop
poker stars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker Stars Converter Tool from http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

Button ($8.50)
SB ($39.82)
BB ($38.69)
Hero (UTG) ($23.83)
MP ($27.87)
CO ($8.16)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K

, K

Hero raises $0.35, 3 folds, SB calls $0.30, BB raises $1.20, Hero raises $3.90, 1 fold, BB calls $2.95

Flop: ($8.85) A

, J

, 5

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($8.85) 4

(2 players)
BB bets $5.65, Hero folds

Total pot: $8.85

Results below:

Spoiler

BB didn't show

 

[nabmom]

a nitty fold and should I have Cbet flop

A good flop to cbet perhaps, but villain's bet on the Turn (although you didn't tell us any reads on him, if you had them) makes me think he likely had the A. What range of hands would he raise and then call a reraise with? I'd think AA would have come over the top, but what about AK? AQ? KK-QQ? Did you have an image at the table established already?

 

[rhombus]

A good flop to cbet perhaps, but villain's bet on the Turn (although you didn't tell us any reads on him, if you had them) makes me think he likely had the A. What range of hands would he raise and then call a reraise with? I'd think AA would have come over the top, but what about AK? AQ? KK-QQ? Did you have an image at the table established already?

Didnt have many hands and o real reads as it was Zoom Poker

VPIP: 23, PFR: 19, 3B: 14, AF: 3.0, Hands: 31

 

[John A]

When you mentioned Aggression too low was you referring to both the screenshots or the second one with 3000 hands. the one with 33000 hands 80-90% of those were from last year so prob a bad idea to post.

To get some volume ive been playing mostly Zoom poker this month

Both. You are missing a lot of profitable semi bluffing and high equity bluff spots, and not value betting enough. That's generally what a low aggression is an indicator of.

Not sure if you remember one of the principles we talked about on here, but in general, if you're going to be calling a bet, you're better off being the bettor (especially on the turn). This only doesn't apply when you're trapping an aggressive player. But you shouldn't have a ton of aggressive players.

 

[John A]

Bit of a Rollercoaster session tonight
and hand below was it a nitty fold and should I have Cbet flop
Poker Stars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker Stars Converter Tool from http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

Button ($8.50)
SB ($39.82)
BB ($38.69)
Hero (UTG) ($23.83)
MP ($27.87)
CO ($8.16)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K

, K

Hero raises $0.35, 3 folds, SB calls $0.30, BB raises $1.20, Hero raises $3.90, 1 fold, BB calls $2.95

Flop: ($8.85) A

, J

, 5

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($8.85) 4

(2 players)
BB bets $5.65, Hero folds

Total pot: $8.85

Results below:

Spoiler

BB didn't show

Yeah, just half pot the flop. If he calls, he's checking the turn, and if you check behind, he's unlikely to bet unless he has an Ace. He's not going to have many draws here in a 4-bet pot, so it's almost always AK/AA-TT. QQ/TT will check the river nearly always at these stakes also, so you can fold if he bets the river.

 

[rhombus]

Both. You are missing a lot of profitable semi bluffing and high equity bluff spots, and not value betting enough. That's generally what a low aggression is an indicator of.

Not sure if you remember one of the principles we talked about on here, but in general, if you're going to be calling a bet, you're better off being the bettor (especially on the turn). This only doesn't apply when you're trapping an aggressive player. But you shouldn't have a ton of aggressive players.

Thanks, shouldnt the last bit be
This doesn't apply when you're trapping an aggressive player. But you shouldn't have a ton of aggressive players.

 

[John A]

Yes, you can be my editor.

 

[Figaroo2]

Bad running and bad redline

John I'm having trouble identifying why my red line has gone so bad again. The bad running is effecting my play somehow.
You did promise me a session. I know you have been busy with your house move. When are you free? I've just finished work for the holidays and am away next week so any time up to Sunday night would suit.

 

[John A]

Post up some of your stats from this period. Post overall and positional stats and I can give you some feedback.

Yes, we will get a session going soon. I just got moved in. There's just been a ton going on this summer. Moving out of town is a much bigger pain then a regular move and we literally just are getting settled today.

Any ways, we'll get you straightened out.

 

[Figaroo2]

recent stats

John
Have a look at my post at #1029 above it explains some of the stats and issues.
I have also been running into more than my fair share of monsters and suck outs. Especially at 6 max which is mainly where I take on most of the fish and maniacs on Ipoker.
All of the full ring is on pokerstars
I will also post a hand from this evening where I tried and failed to bluff (again), I feel like bluffing the river is one of my weaknesses.

 

[Figaroo2]

biggest loss of the eve,

(Poker Stars) $25.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, August 08, 04:33:40 ET 2014
Seat 2 is the button
Seat 2: Player2 ( $25.00 USD ) - VPIP: 13, PFR: 9, 3B: 1, AF: 2.0, Hands: 353
Seat 3: Player3 ( $25.18 USD ) - VPIP: 30, PFR: 22, 3B: 0, AF: 4.0, Hands: 27
Seat 4: Hero ( $42.53 USD ) - VPIP:16 , PFR: 12, 3B: 8.1, AG% 65, Hands: 92
Seat 6: Player6 ( $30.61 USD ) - VPIP: 15, PFR: 10, 3B: 5, AF: 1.8, Hands: 457
Seat 7: Player7 ( $26.28 USD ) - VPIP: 15, PFR: 12, 3B: 0, AF: 2.3, Hands: 97
Seat 8: Player8 ( $40.34 USD ) - VPIP: 16, PFR: 3, 3B: 3, AF: 2.3, Hands: 90
Seat 9: Player9 ( $31.77 USD ) - VPIP: 16, PFR: 12, 3B: 2, AF: 2.2, Hands: 212
Player3 posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
Hero posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 6s As ]
Player6 folds
Player7 folds
Player8 folds
Player9 raises [$0.75 USD]
Player2 folds
Player3 folds
Hero calls [$0.50 USD] OK I had three bet this guy twice already in the previous 10 minutes or and he had folded both times, (looks like I should have done so again) My 3 bet is up to 8% so thinking of game flow this time I just call. Usually I would fold this hand here but with 65% in late he opens all sorts from LP.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9s, 7d, 5d ]
Hero checks
Player9 bets [$1.00 USD]
Hero calls [$1.00 USD] I think this was the mistake in the hand actually rather than the bluff at the end. If i had raised him here with my gut shot and back door flush draw he would probably have folded his hand.
I would be assuming this board hits my calling range pretty hard

** Dealing Turn ** [ 2d ] pot is around $3.50
Hero bets [$2.58 USD] Ok im repping a flush
Player9 calls [$2.58 USD] ok now Im thinking he might have what i'm repping lol, I'm putting him on high cards probably with a big diamond maybe a pair like 88 1010 JJ
** Dealing River ** [ Ts ] this is a decent bluffing card is it not? Brings in some straights for him to worry about as well.
Pot is $8.76
Hero bets [$6.27 USD] trying to make this look like a solid value bet.
Player9 calls [$6.27 USD]
Hero shows [6s, As ]
Player9 shows [2c, 2s ] f u c a duck, honestly, typical of my running recently.
Player9 wins $20.34 USD from main pot

 

[BLACKSTACK]

aww crap,just started my lb trial and ive got a D- grade,its like school all over again

 

[Figaroo2]

It seems I forgot Johns post last week about not bluffing out of position lol