Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

R

rhombus

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I didn't, but it's kind of the essence of game theory. There's no alternative solution where your opponent gains an advantage. The indifference comes out of their not being a solution where they have an advantage.

Why are you asking? Fyi, I wouldn't worry about this in your games right now.
Only reason I asked is I read it other day then saw this question about bluffing. :p

When I read it, it sounded ok but then realised, not an easy thing to do and at the micros the only thing you need to balance it to hold your mouse in one hand and a cold time in the other :eek:
 
R

rhombus

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Value to bluff should be 2:1 to make villain indifferent to calling. That said, I'm curious to know what hands we should be bluffing with? Is it dependant on villain or should that matter since we should assume that everyone at the table is watching how we play and will see our value/bluff bets?
As john mentions in the next post at our levels its not really a big thing.

The hand you posted above I couldn't really make out the details ???

But in general look at a hand matrix and click some combos that you would value bet if you had them and then divide that by 2 and select some combs of bluffs that you could have.

Also when bluffing you need to think of hands based on villain that he could actually have and will fold, or if hes a FISH he need alot of junk in his range before trying to bluff.
 
R

rhombus

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2 hands from tonight
Hand 1 my Achilles heel, think I've posted similar situations before, Call 3Bet OOP with a pair and flop overpair then ???

Hand2 DO I call the River???, In my mind when they check raised Turn, Either has Set, Flush or Draw, something like AT A8 with Aces of Spades


Hand1
poker stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $31.84 (318.4 bb)
BB: $10 (100 bb)
UTG: $23.94 (239.4 bb)
MP: $31.08 (310.8 bb)
Hero (CO): $10.18 (101.8 bb)
BTN: $16.73 (167.3 bb)40/40 3B 50 AG50% 5 hands

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7
spade4.gif
7
diamond4.gif

2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, BTN raises to $0.90, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.95) 3
diamond4.gif
4
spade4.gif
2
club4.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1, Hero calls $1

Turn: ($3.95) 6
heart4.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.90, Hero ???

Hand2
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $19.74 (197.4 bb)33/0 AG 67% 3hands
BB: $7.96 (79.6 bb)
UTG: $5.99 (59.9 bb)
MP: $10.60 (106 bb)
CO: $8.24 (82.4 bb)
Hero (BTN): $10 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 9
heart4.gif
T
diamond4.gif

3 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB calls $0.25, BB folds

Flop: ($0.70) 8
spade4.gif
5
heart4.gif
T
spade4.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.44, SB calls $0.44

Turn: ($1.58) 2
spade4.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.80, SB raises to $1.60, Hero calls $0.80

River: ($4.78) 9
diamond4.gif
(2 players)
SB bets $2.28, Hero ???
 
S

Sneaky Feet

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2 hands from tonight
Hand 1 my Achilles heel, think I've posted similar situations before, Call 3Bet OOP with a pair and flop overpair then ???

Hand2 DO I call the River???, In my mind when they check raised Turn, Either has Set, Flush or Draw, something like AT A8 with Aces of Spades


Hand1
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $31.84 (318.4 bb)
BB: $10 (100 bb)
UTG: $23.94 (239.4 bb)
MP: $31.08 (310.8 bb)
Hero (CO): $10.18 (101.8 bb)
BTN: $16.73 (167.3 bb)40/40 3B 50 AG50% 5 hands

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7
spade4.gif
7
diamond4.gif

2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, BTN raises to $0.90, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.95) 3
diamond4.gif
4
spade4.gif
2
club4.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1, Hero calls $1

Turn: ($3.95) 6
heart4.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.90, Hero ???

Hand2
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $19.74 (197.4 bb)33/0 AG 67% 3hands
BB: $7.96 (79.6 bb)
UTG: $5.99 (59.9 bb)
MP: $10.60 (106 bb)
CO: $8.24 (82.4 bb)
Hero (BTN): $10 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 9
heart4.gif
T
diamond4.gif

3 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB calls $0.25, BB folds

Flop: ($0.70) 8
spade4.gif
5
heart4.gif
T
spade4.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.44, SB calls $0.44

Turn: ($1.58) 2
spade4.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.80, SB raises to $1.60, Hero calls $0.80

River: ($4.78) 9
diamond4.gif
(2 players)
SB bets $2.28, Hero ???


Hand 1. If you're willing to call the flop you should be willing to call the turn. The 6 really hasn't done anything for villain but it has given you some extra outs to the nuts. Call the turn and play the river accordingly

Hand 2. I'm calling the river here with 2 pair. Why would villain 3 bet so small when the flush comes unless they're trying to see if they can make you fold? 1/2 pot bet on the river is a call to me. If villain bet bigger on the river I think I'm folding.... I may even raise here actually and fold to a shove. Any reads? Probably not with only 3 hands
 
John A

John A

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Ugh guys... if there's anything you guys take away from this thread let is be:

1) It's ok to be wrong
2) Don't make discussing poker analysis personal
3) You can only learn when you're wrong

I know you guys do a great job, and especially with #2.
 
Figaroo2

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Rhom yeah they are both marginal spots where sometimes we are good but it's really hard to know where we stand.
I go with Sneaky on these two the only thing I would probably do different is in the T9 hand I'm not betting the turn with a pair of tens with a weak kicker and the possibility that he's made a flush or I'm out kicked. I'm just trying to pot control and get a cheap showdown now. It's also opens the window for him to bluff and we have a decent catcher. I also still have the option to bet again on the river if we improve.
As played his turn min raise just looks like either a pot sweetner from a flush or something of medium strength that has picked up a flush draw. The 9 is one of those teasers that gives us 2 pair but may have filled a straight. We are beaten by a lot here and it would be a much easier crying call if we hadn't bloated the pot on the turn .
 
Figaroo2

Figaroo2

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Ugh guys... if there's anything you guys take away from this thread let is be:

1) It's ok to be wrong
2) Don't make discussing poker analysis personal
3) You can only learn when you're wrong

I know you guys do a great job, and especially with #2.

1) I am frequently

2) this is my hobby it's supposed to be enjoyable I can't be doing with it.
old sayings but "there's nowt as queer as folk" and "you can't please everyone" spring to mind.
Water off a ducks back and just stay humble.

3) I'm learning slowly considering how often I'm wrong! Old dog new tricks. I'm full of them today.
 
F

fletchdad

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2 hands from tonight
Hand 1 my Achilles heel, think I've posted similar situations before, Call 3Bet OOP with a pair and flop overpair then ???

Hand2 DO I call the River???, In my mind when they check raised Turn, Either has Set, Flush or Draw, something like AT A8 with Aces of Spades


Hand1
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $31.84 (318.4 bb)
BB: $10 (100 bb)
UTG: $23.94 (239.4 bb)
MP: $31.08 (310.8 bb)
Hero (CO): $10.18 (101.8 bb)
BTN: $16.73 (167.3 bb)40/40 3B 50 AG50% 5 hands

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7
spade4.gif
7
diamond4.gif

2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, BTN raises to $0.90, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.95) 3
diamond4.gif
4
spade4.gif
2
club4.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1, Hero calls $1

Turn: ($3.95) 6
heart4.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.90, Hero ???

Hand2
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $19.74 (197.4 bb)33/0 AG 67% 3hands
BB: $7.96 (79.6 bb)
UTG: $5.99 (59.9 bb)
MP: $10.60 (106 bb)
CO: $8.24 (82.4 bb)
Hero (BTN): $10 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 9
heart4.gif
T
diamond4.gif

3 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB calls $0.25, BB folds

Flop: ($0.70) 8
spade4.gif
5
heart4.gif
T
spade4.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.44, SB calls $0.44

Turn: ($1.58) 2
spade4.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.80, SB raises to $1.60, Hero calls $0.80

River: ($4.78) 9
diamond4.gif
(2 players)
SB bets $2.28, Hero ???


OK, I am gonna comment here without looking at other comments first. I am trying to do this more to get my own thought process together. Please comment on my comments, if you see anything worthy of commenting on....


Hand 1. Myself, with effective stacks around 100bb, I hate calling 3bets OOP. YOu hand sample is so small, that I am letting go here pre, as I see no reason to setmine, or reason to have a plan OTF, like leading out on x x x etc.. As played, a c/r OTF or a fold, and if you are calling down here, then you cant really fold OTT as nothing has really changed for you unless he has 55, which is such a small part of his 3betting range that we can discount it, but not a comfortable place to be in. Calling again sucks, and OTR, if an OC comes, we cant really continue to call here anyway. IMO, you need to fire OTF with a c/r or just be done with the hand.


Again, very small sample. IMO hand is fine, but the turn is a fold for me. His range is so wide and we know nothing about him. Are there really enough bluff/semi bluff hands in his range that we are good against vs made hands that we are a dog to? I am letting it go.

I am now gonna see what others say....
 
John A

John A

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2 hands from tonight
Hand 1 my Achilles heel, think I've posted similar situations before, Call 3Bet OOP with a pair and flop overpair then ???

Hand2 DO I call the River???, In my mind when they check raised Turn, Either has Set, Flush or Draw, something like AT A8 with Aces of Spades


Hand1
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $31.84 (318.4 bb)
BB: $10 (100 bb)
UTG: $23.94 (239.4 bb)
MP: $31.08 (310.8 bb)
Hero (CO): $10.18 (101.8 bb)
BTN: $16.73 (167.3 bb)40/40 3B 50 AG50% 5 hands

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7
spade4.gif
7
diamond4.gif

2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, BTN raises to $0.90, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.95) 3
diamond4.gif
4
spade4.gif
2
club4.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1, Hero calls $1

Turn: ($3.95) 6
heart4.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.90, Hero ???


His bet sizing smells a lot like Ax. I mean if he had an overpair, he'd probably a check a large part of his range to keep the pot size smaller and at least induce a bluff or VB the river.

So against someone who you have very little info on and you're OOP, but that could very possibly be overly aggro folding/calling is somewhat trivial here. I don't think either way is a huge EV difference simply because you don't know what his real aggression will be quite yet. If you were confident he'd slow down after you call 2 streets in a 3-bet pot (which most people and even fairly aggressive players would do), then you peel again here.

I think w/o that info it's a lot better to just bet this turn (even though it looks a little goofy, it's still believable), or c/f. That way you don't have to do the check guess game against an unknown.

Hand2
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $19.74 (197.4 bb)33/0 AG 67% 3hands
BB: $7.96 (79.6 bb)
UTG: $5.99 (59.9 bb)
MP: $10.60 (106 bb)
CO: $8.24 (82.4 bb)
Hero (BTN): $10 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 9
heart4.gif
T
diamond4.gif

3 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB calls $0.25, BB folds

Flop: ($0.70) 8
spade4.gif
5
heart4.gif
T
spade4.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.44, SB calls $0.44

Turn: ($1.58) 2
spade4.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.80, SB raises to $1.60, Hero calls $0.80

River: ($4.78) 9
diamond4.gif
(2 players)
SB bets $2.28, Hero ???

Like we've talked about a lot in here before, a check min raise on the turn is almost always extremely strong. I would just believe him here in this spot and let it go. Your hand isn't that strong, and if you're behind to a flush, you have no hopes to outdraw. I think at this level in a turn min check raise spot, just believe your opponent until they give you reason not to in the future.
 
John A

John A

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1) I am frequently

2) this is my hobby it's supposed to be enjoyable I can't be doing with it.
old sayings but "there's nowt as queer as folk" and "you can't please everyone" spring to mind.
Water off a ducks back and just stay humble.

3) I'm learning slowly considering how often I'm wrong! Old dog new tricks. I'm full of them today.

Yeah, and I agree. You do a good job w/ this Fig.

Sometimes you have that clash of ego's with poker players. It's inevitable. Bottom line like you said is, stay humble. We all have a lot to learn, on many many levels.
 
R

rhombus

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2 hands from tonight
Hand 1 my Achilles heel, think I've posted similar situations before, Call 3Bet OOP with a pair and flop overpair then ???

Hand2 DO I call the River???, In my mind when they check raised Turn, Either has Set, Flush or Draw, something like AT A8 with Aces of Spades


Hand1
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $31.84 (318.4 bb)
BB: $10 (100 bb)
UTG: $23.94 (239.4 bb)
MP: $31.08 (310.8 bb)
Hero (CO): $10.18 (101.8 bb)
BTN: $16.73 (167.3 bb)40/40 3B 50 AG50% 5 hands

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7
spade4.gif
7
diamond4.gif

2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, BTN raises to $0.90, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.95) 3
diamond4.gif
4
spade4.gif
2
club4.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1, Hero calls $1

Turn: ($3.95) 6
heart4.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.90, Hero ???

Hand2
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $19.74 (197.4 bb)33/0 AG 67% 3hands
BB: $7.96 (79.6 bb)
UTG: $5.99 (59.9 bb)
MP: $10.60 (106 bb)
CO: $8.24 (82.4 bb)
Hero (BTN): $10 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 9
heart4.gif
T
diamond4.gif

3 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB calls $0.25, BB folds

Flop: ($0.70) 8
spade4.gif
5
heart4.gif
T
spade4.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.44, SB calls $0.44

Turn: ($1.58) 2
spade4.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.80, SB raises to $1.60, Hero calls $0.80

River: ($4.78) 9
diamond4.gif
(2 players)
SB bets $2.28, Hero ???


Hand 1- I shoved when he bet the turn. He called with TT and the River was a 2
Hand 2 - I did call and he had flopped set of 8s which made sense raising the turn when the flush draw appeared, but i would have raised more.
 

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R

rhombus

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Ugh guys... if there's anything you guys take away from this thread let is be:

1) It's ok to be wrong - as long a the villain is wronger* than you :p
2) Don't make discussing poker analysis personal - Assuming this can work both ways, i.e. if you misinterpret the opinion
3) You can only learn when you're wrong - so true. Think life would be so boring if you was right all the time.

I know you guys do a great job, and especially with #2.

* Just made a word up!!
 
John A

John A

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Hand 1- I shoved when he bet the turn. He called with TT and the River was a 2
Hand 2 - I did call and he had flopped set of 8s which made sense raising the turn when the flush draw appeared, but i would have raised more.

Hand 1 is interesting because that's pretty aggressive for that stake level. I'd expect most opponents to be checking w/ most mid over pairs since there's literally only a couple of combos they beat, and the rest they lose to.

Hand 2, it was pretty clear you were behind, but a check min raise on the 3rd flush is a little weird and not ideal. But that's why I say, never say never in poker. People do a lot of illogical things, or sometimes random thinks just based on a mood they are in.
 
Figaroo2

Figaroo2

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Mirroring.... just think poker here
A common personality trap for analysts (us looking at poker hands) is known as mirror-imaging. This is the assumption that the people being studied (villains) think like the analysts (heros) themselves.
Experienced analysts may recognize that they have fallen prey to mirror-imaging if they discover that they are unwilling to examine variants of what they consider most reasonable in light of their personal frame of reference. (just because you don't call 3bets oop with 56s doesn't mean others won't). Less-perceptive analysts affected by this trap may regard legitimate objections as a personal attack, rather than looking beyond ego to the merits of the question. Peer review (especially by people from a different background) can be a wise safeguard. Organizational culture can also create traps which render individual analysts unwilling to challenge acknowledged experts in the group.​
 
Last edited:
Figaroo2

Figaroo2

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Frame of reference

I publishing this hand for a couple of reasons, firstly to show that you really don't need that many hands on someone to know they are an aggro donk.
secondly my frame of reference is that this villain was barreling some sort of draw....wrong...

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $6.60 (66 bb)
BB: $25.99 (259.9 bb)
UTG+2: $10.15 (101.5 bb)
MP1: $9.35 (93.5 bb)
Hero (MP2): $10.83 (108.3 bb)
MP3: $10 (100 bb)
CO: $10 (100 bb)
BTN: $13.17 (131.7 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A
diamond4.gif
Q
diamond4.gif

UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.45, 5 folds, MP1 calls $0.35

Flop: ($1.05) 5
spade4.gif
7
club4.gif
Q
club4.gif
(2 players)
MP1 bets $1, Hero calls $1

Turn: ($3.05) 7
diamond4.gif
(2 players)
MP1 bets $3, Hero calls $3

River: ($9.05) T
diamond4.gif
(2 players)
MP1 bets $4.90, Hero calls $4.90

Results: $18.85 pot ($0.85 rake)
Final Board: 5
spade4.gif
7
club4.gif
Q
club4.gif
7
diamond4.gif
T
diamond4.gif

MP1 showed J
spade4.gif
6
diamond4.gif
and lost (-$9.35 net)
Hero showed A
diamond4.gif
Q
diamond4.gif
and won $18 ($8.65 net)
 

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Figaroo2

Figaroo2

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Yeah they look familiar. Don't publish the results for at least a few days. If you specifically want feed back from John post here as well. These links are fine.
 
S

Sneaky Feet

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I publishing this hand for a couple of reasons, firstly to show that you really don't need that many hands on someone to know they are an aggro donk.
secondly my frame of reference is that this villain was barreling some sort of draw....wrong...

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $6.60 (66 bb)
BB: $25.99 (259.9 bb)
UTG+2: $10.15 (101.5 bb)
MP1: $9.35 (93.5 bb)
Hero (MP2): $10.83 (108.3 bb)
MP3: $10 (100 bb)
CO: $10 (100 bb)
BTN: $13.17 (131.7 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A
diamond4.gif
Q
diamond4.gif

UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.45, 5 folds, MP1 calls $0.35

Flop: ($1.05) 5
spade4.gif
7
club4.gif
Q
club4.gif
(2 players)
MP1 bets $1, Hero calls $1

Turn: ($3.05) 7
diamond4.gif
(2 players)
MP1 bets $3, Hero calls $3

River: ($9.05) T
diamond4.gif
(2 players)
MP1 bets $4.90, Hero calls $4.90

Results: $18.85 pot ($0.85 rake)
Final Board: 5
spade4.gif
7
club4.gif
Q
club4.gif
7
diamond4.gif
T
diamond4.gif

MP1 showed J
spade4.gif
6
diamond4.gif
and lost (-$9.35 net)
Hero showed A
diamond4.gif
Q
diamond4.gif
and won $18 ($8.65 net)

Wow villain is just bad. Gotta love running into these guys! I stacked 3 guys last night but they were all short stacked so I didn't get too far lol
 
R

rhombus

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Wow villain is just bad. Gotta love running into these guys! I stacked 3 guys last night but they were all short stacked so I didn't get too far lol
Don't you just hate it when that happens. A donkey willing to give you chips has only 1/2 a stack but when you flip or are in a cooler and lose, they are full stacked or deeper:eek:
 
John A

John A

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Mirroring.... just think poker here
A common personality trap for analysts (us looking at poker hands) is known as mirror-imaging. This is the assumption that the people being studied (villains) think like the analysts (heros) themselves.
Experienced analysts may recognize that they have fallen prey to mirror-imaging if they discover that they are unwilling to examine variants of what they consider most reasonable in light of their personal frame of reference. (just because you don't call 3bets oop with 56s doesn't mean others won't). Less-perceptive analysts affected by this trap may regard legitimate objections as a personal attack, rather than looking beyond ego to the merits of the question. Peer review (especially by people from a different background) can be a wise safeguard. Organizational culture can also create traps which render individual analysts unwilling to challenge acknowledged experts in the group.​

Yes... and I say this all of the time. I mean if you understand a group and how they think, then your approach should be, most of the time X group does Y. But that doesn't mean always.

Any ways, it's a very easy trap to fall into. It probably happens about every 5 seconds on this forum.
 
John A

John A

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I publishing this hand for a couple of reasons, firstly to show that you really don't need that many hands on someone to know they are an aggro donk.
secondly my frame of reference is that this villain was barreling some sort of draw....wrong...

You assume some kind of reasonable range, but when you know they are aggro and a donk, you add a lot more hands in there. :) I'm sure you've heard me say this many times in live sweats. We start with a reasonable range that makes sense, but also add the fact that it's also going to include wtf are you doing hands? :)
 
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You assume some kind of reasonable range, but when you know they are aggro and a donk, you add a lot more hands in there. :) I'm sure you've heard me say this many times in live sweats. We start with a reasonable range that makes sense, but also add the fact that it's also going to include wtf are you doing hands? :)

Aren't you supposed to include the WTF range from the start, remember a post once, think it was Splitsuit who said you start with a range and narrow down based on actions throughout the hand, but never add hands in when other cards appear.

Or is that the exception to the rule when WTF players are in the pot ????
 
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Don't you just hate it when that happens. A donkey willing to give you chips has only 1/2 a stack but when you flip or are in a cooler and lose, they are full stacked or deeper:eek:

OMG yes!
 
John A

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Aren't you supposed to include the WTF range from the start, remember a post once, think it was Splitsuit who said you start with a range and narrow down based on actions throughout the hand, but never add hands in when other cards appear.

Or is that the exception to the rule when WTF players are in the pot ????

Well... never say never. But the problem w/ that approach of setting a pre-flop range and then working back each street is the hand analysis can get crazy wide and deep. I mean, anyone can deviate from their normal hand range at any point. So you'd be including a lot of hands each analysis. I personally just like looking at the point of the decision, and then based on the action just decide what range of hands fits this action. It's just faster and more effective imho. I don't see an issue w/ doing it that way.

The bottom line is you want likelihood but if you catch you or someone you know saying, they can't have X hand... especially when it's at all reasonable, correct yourself quick. I could point out a ton of threads in the cash game area on this forum where people say that. Hey, he wouldn't have AA/KK because he didn't 3-bet in this spot. No, no, no, no... he's less LIKELY to have AA/KK, but it's still in his range very much.
 
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stacked 3 times tonight. Coolers or avoidable??? and how best to play them if I screwed up.

Think the KT was probably bad especially as deep but the other 2 not sure what else I could've done

Hand 1

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $10.18 (101.8 bb)
BB: $11.42 (114.2 bb)67/33 AG67% 3 hands
UTG: $19.25 (192.5 bb)
MP: $20.70 (207 bb)
Hero (CO): $10 (100 bb)
BTN: $10.21 (102.1 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K
club4.gif
K
heart4.gif

2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, BTN calls $0.30, SB folds, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.95) 8
diamond4.gif
Q
club4.gif
Q
heart4.gif
(3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.45, BTN folds, BB raises to $2.26, Hero calls $1.81

Turn: ($5.47) Q
spade4.gif
(2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($5.47) 7
heart4.gif
(2 players)
BB bets $8.86, Hero calls $7.44 and is all-in

Results: $20.35 pot ($0.92 rake)
Final Board: 8
diamond4.gif
Q
club4.gif
Q
heart4.gif
Q
spade4.gif
7
heart4.gif

BB showed Q
diamond4.gif
J
club4.gif
and won $19.43 ($9.43 net)
Hero showed K
club4.gif
K
heart4.gif
and lost (-$10 net)

Hand 2
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $21.52 (215.2 bb)
BB: $10 (100 bb)16/13 AG 50% 93 hands
Hero (UTG): $10.59 (105.9 bb)
MP: $20.29 (202.9 bb)
CO: $3 (30 bb)
BTN: $19.20 (192 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A
heart4.gif
Q
spade4.gif

Hero raises to $0.30, MP calls $0.30, 3 folds, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.95) Q
club4.gif
6
diamond4.gif
7
club4.gif
(3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.70, MP folds, BB calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.35) A
spade4.gif
(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.49, BB raises to $5.40, Hero raises to $9.59 and is all-in, BB calls $3.60 and is all-in

River: ($20.35) 5
diamond4.gif
(2 players, 2 are all-in)

Results: $20.35 pot ($0.92 rake)
Final Board: Q
club4.gif
6
diamond4.gif
7
club4.gif
A
spade4.gif
5
diamond4.gif

BB showed 6
heart4.gif
6
spade4.gif
and won $19.43 ($9.43 net)
Hero showed A
heart4.gif
Q
spade4.gif
and won $0.00 (-$10 net)

Hand 3
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $18.10 (181 bb)22/9 AG38% 32 Hands
Hero (BB): $13.96 (139.6 bb)
UTG: $12.70 (127 bb)
MP: $5.99 (59.9 bb)
CO: $45.30 (453 bb)
BTN: $4.85 (48.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K
heart4.gif
T
diamond4.gif

3 folds, BTN raises to $0.30, SB calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.90) K
club4.gif
T
club4.gif
7
heart4.gif
(3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $0.43, SB raises to $1.40, Hero calls $1.40, BTN folds

Turn: ($4.13) 6
spade4.gif
(2 players)
SB bets $2.50, Hero raises to $8.45, SB raises to $16.40 and is all-in, Hero calls $3.81

River: ($28.65) 8
club4.gif
(2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $28.65 pot ($1.29 rake)
Final Board: K
club4.gif
T
club4.gif
7
heart4.gif
6
spade4.gif
8
club4.gif

SB showed 7
spade4.gif
7
diamond4.gif
and won $27.36 ($13.40 net)
Hero showed K
heart4.gif
T
diamond4.gif
and lost (-$13.96 net)
 
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