Live Grind: How to Not Fall Asleep at the Table

[Beanfacekilla]

one thing you should realise about live is due to the prevalence of limping, raising is actually a much stronger and narrower range than online, equally people dont pillage as wide and very rarely steal light

Aboslutely not true. The other day someone reraised all in with J-9 suited. People also raise weak suited aces. K-j off like they are aces.

As for rarely stealing light...

At many card rooms, you can straddle on the button. Pretty frequently, the straddler will try to squeeze after the action returns to him. The straddler will do this with ATC. I think that some people feel when they straddle, it is lucky, and they absolutely will not fold their straddle. I have seen squeezes with 9 high or worse.

Live players are simply the worst you will play against. They will raise OOP with hands like J-9 off.

I think some people will have a narrow range when raising, but for the most part, they do not. A-10off is regarded by many live players as a strong hand. They will reraise this.

 

[duggs]

i hardly think its the norm to get it in that light, and im yet to see anyone reraise me without JJ+ in live. so what you are saying is that their limping range existing makes their raising range weaker?

the average live player is extremely loose passive, and thats what the generalisation pertained to. (thought that was obv as loose aggressive opponents dont limp pre)

 

[duggs]

and you are kidding yourself if you think the average live player is that aggressive/spewy, else you could get it in pre 100bb deep with 77+ A10o A9s KQo+ but just raise 4bet shoving over any action.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

yea, except the field strength is exponentially weaker. And almost nobody is paying attention anyway.
iv played maybe 20 hours of live poker in my life. maybe more its hard to say, I've only been playing poker a little over a year or so.

I thought it was you who said this. 20 hours of live in your life.

i hardly think its the norm to get it in that light, and im yet to see anyone reraise me without JJ+ in live. so what you are saying is that their limping range existing makes their raising range weaker?

the average live player is extremely loose passive, and thats what the generalisation pertained to. (thought that was obv as loose aggressive opponents dont limp pre)

Well whether you believe it or not, that's the way it is. And how exactly do you know what the average live player is anyways? Is this based on you 20 hours of live play?

I am absolutely not lying. They are that bad.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

and you are kidding yourself if you think the average live player is that aggressive/spewy, else you could get it in pre 100bb deep with 77+ A10o A9s KQo+ but just raise 4bet shoving over any action.

Unlike you, I have seen hundreds of thousands of hands live. If there is one thing I am sure of, it is this: live players are aggressive spewing calling stations.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Uhm, skepticism of claim about hundreds of thousands of hands aside (even at a speedy 40/hour it would take 250 ten-hour-long sessions to reach 100,000 hands), I have seen very little raising live. This implies naturally that people (on average) are not raising that wide. Limped pots are absurdly common, implying that play is MORE passive than online.

I suppose how you define loose/tight and aggressive/passive can differ, but relative to online, play has seemed looser and more passive. I'm not claiming to have as much experience as you. But if what you say is true of the AVERAGE live player, that they are raising J9o in MP or worse, then most pots would be raised, wouldn't they?

If 7 of the 9 players at a table will raise J9o or better (~23% of hands, for the sake of making a range) from 2/3 of the positions, this implies a pretty big statistical improbability of having extremely frequent limped pots.

 

[JusSumguy]

spoilers don't work. -.-

Spoiler

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[Beanfacekilla]

I have been playing live for 7 years. I am pretty sure have seen at least a couple hundred thousand.

Just recently. I have aces on the BB. MP raises to 12, one call. I reraise to $37. Both of them call. To make a long story short, MP raised with 5-7 off, and calldd $37.

Many people will raise thier lucky cards (2-4 suited, etc).

If you don't believe me that's fine. The live game is changing big time always. It is really tough to put people on ranges, as they play so wacky. They will raise with A-2 suited, yet they limp with K-K.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

And of course there is a ton of limping. But the comment about raising makes the ranges thin was not true at all.

 

[vinylspiros]

Spoiler

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pleasant surprise out of nowhere.hheheheheheheh

 

[natsgrampy]

Glad to see this thread about live games.

See you are from Boston and wondered where you play live? Where you going to school? I am originally from the Boston area now in CT.

I like to play live at Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun. I play 1/2 NL, I buy in for $100 and will rebuy for another $100. That is the most I will lose in a session. There is a distinct difference between the play at these two places.

Players at Mohegan, seem to actually know how to play. They appear to be mostly regs who pay attention to what's going on. ABC poker here will be profitable most of the time.I am +7 Buy ins there, over the course of about 45 hours this year.

Players at Foxwwods seem to be more recreational players who travel to play poker and that is what they want to do. These players are never folding, they came to play. You have to play careful as they will play ATC and you can easily get felted with a great starting hand PF. That being said, knowing this can be extremely profitable. Over the course of this year, about 10 sessions, say about 6 -7 hours each I am + 2 Buy Ins. This takes into account that I have only had 2 winning sessions there and each has been enough to cover the 8 losing sessions.

I guess my point is you really need to learn what you can about the players and the venue, and play your game to account for that knowledge.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

Glad to see this thread about live games.

See you are from Boston and wondered where you play live? Where you going to school? I am originally from the Boston area now in CT.

I like to play live at Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun. I play 1/2 NL, I buy in for $100 and will rebuy for another $100. That is the most I will lose in a session. There is a distinct difference between the play at these two places.

Players at Mohegan, seem to actually know how to play. They appear to be mostly regs who pay attention to what's going on. ABC poker here will be profitable most of the time.I am +7 Buy ins there, over the course of about 45 hours this year.

Players at Foxwwods seem to be more recreational players who travel to play poker and that is what they want to do. These players are never folding, they came to play. You have to play careful as they will play ATC and you can easily get felted with a great starting hand PF. That being said, knowing this can be extremely profitable. Over the course of this year, about 10 sessions, say about 6 -7 hours each I am + 2 Buy Ins. This takes into account that I have only had 2 winning sessions there and each has been enough to cover the 8 losing sessions.

I guess my point is you really need to learn what you can about the players and the venue, and play your game to account for that knowledge.

Very good post. This is very true. At some rooms, terrible play is standard.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Glad to see this thread about live games.

See you are from Boston and wondered where you play live? Where you going to school? I am originally from the Boston area now in CT.

I like to play live at Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun. I play 1/2 NL, I buy in for $100 and will rebuy for another $100. That is the most I will lose in a session. There is a distinct difference between the play at these two places.

Players at Mohegan, seem to actually know how to play. They appear to be mostly regs who pay attention to what's going on. ABC poker here will be profitable most of the time.I am +7 Buy ins there, over the course of about 45 hours this year.

Players at Foxwwods seem to be more recreational players who travel to play poker and that is what they want to do. These players are never folding, they came to play. You have to play careful as they will play ATC and you can easily get felted with a great starting hand PF. That being said, knowing this can be extremely profitable. Over the course of this year, about 10 sessions, say about 6 -7 hours each I am + 2 Buy Ins. This takes into account that I have only had 2 winning sessions there and each has been enough to cover the 8 losing sessions.

I guess my point is you really need to learn what you can about the players and the venue, and play your game to account for that knowledge.

Fantastic points, thanks for gracing the thread with your presence

I guess this may help to clarify some of the disagreements about play. And Beanface, I see what you mean about how while some people may not be raising a lot, it doesn't necessarily define and narrow their range much, while for others, when they raise you can instantly categorize their possible hand types.

Yes, I'm from the Boston area, but I go to school in Cleveland. I play at the (still pretty new) Horseshoe Cleveland casino. I've only been 21 for about 2.5 months, but I've played a total of about 80 hours. Finally to that point where I don't feel nerves for the early part of the session.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

And ty for the good spoiler - no clue why it wasn't working for me. I'll try it again:

Spoiler

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[duggs]

Unlike you, I have seen hundreds of thousands of hands live. If there is one thing I am sure of, it is this: live players are aggressive spewing calling stations.

lol, pulling volume out doesnt change anything. volume/time spent playing doesnt determine how good someone is or prove their argument

 

[Beanfacekilla]

lol, pulling volume out doesnt change anything. volume/time spent playing doesnt determine how good someone is or prove their argument

No of course it doesn't. But if you have only played 20 hours of live, you are not experienced. How do you know what people play like live?

You don't. How can you possibly know from 20 hours at a table?

You are just generalizing, incorrectly.

Edit:
You are a smart player, and you seem to know alot about poker theory. However, perhaps I deserve just a little bit of credit for knowing something about live play. I have sat at many a poker table, and I am pretty sure I know what people are capable of.

 

[duggs]

no, im not generalizing, im simply stating that if an opponent has a limping range then that changes their raising range ie makes it narrower, to imply that live fish correctly balance their limping/raising ranges and therefore are difficult to range is absurd.

I got limp/called by AK the other day, since we seem to like using single examples to prove a point.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

I think the best strategy is to assume everyone is a complete unpredictable donk, until you see otherwise.

If you sat down at a table, and you did not know how people play, that is a bad time to stereotype. Let's say we follow the advice that someone has a hand if they raise, this is a good way to get your cap peeled.

 

[duggs]

thats not what im saying. you see them open limp twice, they then raise and their raising range is narrower. people are def not unpredictable. people are bad yes, but not unpredictable.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

no, im not generalizing, im simply stating that if an opponent has a limping range then that changes their raising range ie makes it narrower, to imply that live fish correctly balance their limping/raising ranges and therefore are difficult to range is absurd.

I got limp/called by AK the other day, since we seem to like using single examples to prove a point.

Ok. It is pointless to argue. You obviously think you know more than I do. I really don't think you should even be commenting on what you consider to be common at live tables, since you have barely played live. Was the A-K situation live or online?

You are absolutely right duggs. I surrender the argument to you.

 

[duggs]

Edit:
You are a smart player, and you seem to know alot about poker theory. However, perhaps I deserve just a little bit of credit for knowing something about live play. I have sat at many a poker table, and I am pretty sure I know what people are capable of.

correct me if im wrong but you are the guy suggesting deliberately trying to tilt people live yes?

 

[duggs]

obv live, why would i give an online hand example

 

[duggs]

lol matt you are welcome to tell me my input is unneeded

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Well a few things:

One, I think that we all need to accept that we've all had diff experiences, and that as was mentioned before, different locations see different play styles being the norm.

I appreciate input from any and all who offer it.

I think that Beanface obv has a ton of experience live, but perhaps (just perhaps, speculating here) not the same view points on various things as most of the players here who are primarily online players. I think duggs has a ton of theoretical poker knowledge, and has honed it while playing online. I think a lot of it applies to live, but some of it is less useful live.

While I believe a raise indicates a narrower range than a limp, I also have seen people raise with some ridiculous nonsense, as well as citing ridiculous reasons for why they did so.

Edit: Also, I'm talking about averages here. Some players play straightforward, some raise 72o but only UTG, and only on Thursdays, cause it's a lucky situation.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Okay, well, just pulled an overnight session (yaaaay free time during finals!!), and went +2.1 BIs so I am officially in the positive. Things that have been working for me that I plan to continue:

1.) Tightening up: It's a concept in poker that I've had to learn and relearn multiple times, and I find it a useful one nearly every time I make a "transition" in poker (FR -> 6m, moving up limits, online -> live). The thing is, no one is paying enough attention live to realize you're playing tight unless you haven't played a hand in 4 hours, and even then it's questionable. So they will still stack off TPGK against your obvious overpair.

2.) "Table selecting": Well I can't quite table select, because we aren't allowed to pick seats at my casino. But I do have the ability to "reject" games ("game rejection" is a term I think Tommy Angelo uses). Basically, if a table is full of regs, or just will not be profitable (or AS profitable as some other table), I can ask to be moved. Or, if it seems things just won't go well, I can quit earlier than expected. A small example of the opposite of this was last night, I was planning to head home around 2am or so, but the table I was at was so good that I ended up staying all night and didn't leave until about 8:30am. Normally those times the games are reg-filled, but for whatever reason, that table was just full of awful play.

3.) Getting away from marginal spots: I'm not Phil Ivey. And as such, there are plenty of situations at a poker table that either confuse me, or about which I'm not sure how I will pull a profit. These are marginal spots, and at 1/2 live, there's just no good reason to put myself into too many marginal spots. Part of this is the preflop tightening up, but part of it is finding the flop fold "button" more frequently. When I'm not sure if I'm ahead on the flop, call a check-raise, then am faced with a gross turn decision, it's pretty unclear whether the flop play was justified, as it created a tougher situation later. Point being, erring on the safe side will typically be better in marginal spots, because there are so many NON-marginal spots that come up at these limits, and these are what will be drawing the huge majority of profits.

Think those are all the specifics for now, but I think I'll toss a hand up here, just to see what you guys think. Just a preflop spot that I think is pretty standard, but I'm curious if you all would have done anything differently.

I'm in MP and look down at AhAs. It's folded to me (we're 7-handed), and I raise to $15. It folds to the button, who flats, and the BB 3bet to $45. (Yes, it's 3x, but he didn't seem like an online player, or at least not a great one.)

BB had about $130 or so behind, and BTN had about $200 behind the original $15. I had them both covered, with roughly $400 in my stack. In the end I elected to 4bet it to roughly $150. A roughly effective all in against the BB, and the threat of one to the BTN.

Thoughts? I sort of decided not to flat because I didn't want to go 3way to a flop (since the BTN definitely would have flatted the 3bet behind me), and I thought there was a chance of stacking off against an underpair. So I figured I'd make my intentions (getting it in) known and let the other 2 decide what to do.