How strong do you play Ace Rag?

[ol_sin]

You're joking, right?

3- or 4-handed, A8s becomes a huge hand. Everything down to A2o is very much play- and raise-able.

While you wait around for A-Q and A-K I take down pot after pot unchallenged by raising every ace I get dealt. And when you do finally take a stand, I know I'm probably beat and won't lose a lot of money to you.

who says I'll be waiting for A-Q or A-K?

at 3 or 4 handed, A-8 is playable, not a huge hand. Its the kind of hand you try and steal blinds with, not the kind of hand you want to get into a big pot with.

you are saying A - Rag is a huge hand and then start to give examples where you are stealing blinds. Yeah, good steal blinds with, 3-4 handed when the blinds are large. But not a huge hand.

if you want to start talking more about short handed games and headups play, then you are talking about and entirely different beast.

 

[coljung]

well you must be playing the same tables than me because i also keep getting beaten by A2 , A3...

 

[twizzybop]

AX is great 4 handed... for instance you are UTG which means there is only the button next to act. The blinds are put up, you raise with say A6, what are the odds that you are always beat going to the flop if anybody just calls you. You have position on the blinds and if the button flat called you pre-flop. Pretty darn good chance that your ace is good pre-flop when the ace does fall. 4 Handed, one can now raise pre-flop with these types of hands.

 

[Chris_TC]

at 3 or 4 handed, A-8 is playable, not a huge hand.

Of course A-8 is huge on a 3-handed table. Wanna do the math and find out how likely it is for one of your two opponents to be holding a better hand?

5% chance of one of your opponents holding a better Ace (i.e. A-9, A-T, A-J, A-Q or A-K).
11% chance of one of your opponents holding a pocket pair that is not 88 or AA
1% chance of one of your opponents holding AA or 88.

With A-8 on a 3-handed table you're 83% to be holding the best hand, these are better odds than overpair vs. underpair.

If you remove the bottom half of all pocket pairs (statistically a coinflip, but they'll rarely call you to the river without a set), you're almost a 90% to be ahead going into the flop. This certainly fits my definition of "huge".

 

[ol_sin]

Wanna do the math and find out how likely it is for one of your two opponents to be holding a better hand?

not really. just because your opponent is holding a better hand less of the time doesn't make this a profitable a profitable hand.

the fact about A-Rag is, yeah, perhaps a decent amount of the time you will win a pot when it comes down to the end.

but when you pair of Aces with a crappy kicker you can get bluffed.
when you overplay Aces with a crappy kicker you can lose alot to Aces with a better kicker


alot of you guys fail realize that just because a hand has a good chance of winning most of the time, doesn't make it a profitable hand. There is still strategy and tactics to think about.

statistically 72 is not the worst hand. but it is still the worst hand with regard to profitability.

 

[rob5775]

Of course A-8 is huge on a 3-handed table. Wanna do the math and find out how likely it is for one of your two opponents to be holding a better hand?

5% chance of one of your opponents holding a better Ace (i.e. A-9, A-T, A-J, A-Q or A-K).
11% chance of one of your opponents holding a pocket pair that is not 88 or AA
1% chance of one of your opponents holding AA or 88.

With A-8 on a 3-handed table you're 83% to be holding the best hand, these are better odds than overpair vs. underpair.

If you remove the bottom half of all pocket pairs (statistically a coinflip, but they'll rarely call you to the river without a set), you're almost a 90% to be ahead going into the flop. This certainly fits my definition of "huge".

Thats some fuzzy math. How did you get 90% again? At a three handed table holding A8 against two random hands your hand is 38% favorite to win. Not quite the lock of 90%.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.115% 38.23% 01.95% 3630115 184933.83 { A8o }
Hand 1: 30.006% 28.63% 01.42% 2718901 134764.33 { random }
Hand 2: 29.878% 28.43% 01.50% 2699015 142483.33 { random }


And if you are ranking it in starting hand value, Skalansky hand rankings put it at 100/169. Not a huge hand. Really.

A8 is a playable hand three handed but it definitely not the lock you are portraying.

 

[Chris_TC]

Thats some fuzzy math. How did you get 90% again? At a three handed table holding A8 against two random hands your hand is 38% favorite to win. Not quite the lock of 90%.

Where exactly did we come up with the fact that both opponents call me preflop, on the flop, on the turn and on the river with their random hands?

I didn't talk about a triple race situation, I talked about the best hand preflop. Any old J2o can hit a flop when A8 misses, but that wasn't my point. Because any old J2o can hit when AKs misses, and the big slick would by most be considered "huge".

A8 is a playable hand three handed but it definitely not the lock you are portraying.

Alright then. I really wanna play you shorthanded

 

[rob5775]

Where exactly did we come up with the fact that both opponents call me preflop, on the flop, on the turn and on the river with their random hands?

I didn't talk about a triple race situation, I talked about the best hand preflop. Any old J2o can hit a flop when A8 misses, but that wasn't my point. Because any old J2o can hit when AKs misses, and the big slick would by most be considered "huge".

You still didn't answer MY question. What math are you using to put A8 as a 90% favorite preflop. I just showed you it wasn't. Skalansky rates it at 100 out of 169 starting hands. In case you don't understand: starting hand = preflop. That makes it a approximate 60% favorite if you go that route. Real monster buddy.

Alright then. I really wanna play you shorthanded

What's that have to do with anything. Because I consider A8 a playable, raise able hand but not a monster in a shorthanded game you think I'm a bad player? That says a lot about you.:stupid:

 

[Chris_TC]

In case you don't understand: starting hand = preflop. That makes it a approximate 60% favorite if you go that route. Real monster buddy.

If you see all five cards, then you're a 62% favorite against a random hand, that's true. But going by that reasoning, you'd be only a 67% with AKs against a random hand. Real monster buddy.

Once again, in most cases your opponent won't get to see five cards. So you're considerably more than a 60% to win. If your opponent plays Q9 and doesn't hit a pair on the flop (he'll hit a pair only 1/3 of the time and you may hit yourself) then the pot is practically yours.

You can't give him a 38% to win when he gets to see only 3/5 of the board.

To put it differently: what do you consider AKs on a 9-handed table? Does that qualify as huge?
If so, then why does A8s on a 3-handed table not qualify as huge?

 

[rob5775]

Once again, in most cases your opponent won't get to see five cards. So you're considerably more than a 60% to win. If your opponent plays Q9 and doesn't hit a pair on the flop (he'll hit a pair only 1/3 of the time and you may hit yourself) then the pot is practically yours.

Just because an opponent doesn't pair a flop doesn't automatically give you the pot. Most pots won HU/shorthanded are won with out pairing your hole cards. I don't understand what that has to do with A-Rag being a monster hand. Initially you were talking being a favorite huge favorite preflop now you're saying A8 takes down flops because your opponent doesn't pair? Slightly confused.:dontknow:

You can't give him a 38% to win when he gets to see only 3/5 of the board.

So then just throw out all starting hand rankings. Of course the assumption when ranking hands PREFLOP is that you will see all 5 cards, and of course that rarely happens. BUT that was not the original discussion. You stated "you're almost a 90% to be ahead going into the flop" (direct quote). I was curious how you came up with 90%.

To put it differently: what do you consider AKs on a 9-handed table? Does that qualify as huge?
If so, then why does A8s on a 3-handed table not qualify as huge?

Yes, A8 gains value at a shorthanded table - I never disagreed with that. I have already said that and I'm getting tired of saying it. A8, however, is not some 90% monster that is a lock to win. That's all I'm saying.

Hijack over.

 

[jeffred1111]

Ace rag gaisn value when you go very shorthanded and it's a nice hand HU (since Kx and Qx might call a raise). On a full table, when it is suited and I have the pot odss to chase a flush, I might sometimes go for it, but you ahve to realize that a lot of people are playing Aces so you're pretty much assured that flopping an Ace means someone else has flopped an Ace against 4 +opponents. Plus, Aces are usually action-killers unless you are facing big pp.

I love people overplaying them at my table though.

 

[Chris_TC]

So then just throw out all starting hand rankings. Of course the assumption when ranking hands PREFLOP is that you will see all 5 cards, and of course that rarely happens. BUT that was not the original discussion. You stated "you're almost a 90% to be ahead going into the flop" (direct quote). I was curious how you came up with 90%.

I spelled the math out pretty clearly, I'm not sure how else to explain it.

I'll repost the paragraph though for your convenience:

5% chance of one of your opponents holding a better Ace (i.e. A-9, A-T, A-J, A-Q or A-K).
11% chance of one of your opponents holding a pocket pair that is not 88 or AA
1% chance of one of your opponents holding AA or 88.

With A-8 on a 3-handed table you're 83% to be holding the best hand [preflop].

It's almost a 90% if you throw out pairs 22 through 77.

 

[rob5775]

5% chance of one of your opponents holding a better Ace (i.e. A-9, A-T, A-J, A-Q or A-K).
11% chance of one of your opponents holding a pocket pair that is not 88 or AA
1% chance of one of your opponents holding AA or 88.


It's almost a 90% if you throw out pairs 22 through 77.

No, you didn't explain. How did you come up with the percentages in bold?

 

[Bentheman87]

Rob, sure ace 8 suited is not a lock hand, but neither is QQ, KK, or AK. QQ is only 72% to win vs king 3 offsuit. And Ace 8 suited at a short table IS a HUGE hand.

 

[rob5775]

Rob, sure ace 8 suited is not a lock hand, but neither is QQ, KK, or AK. QQ is only 72% to win vs king 3 offsuit. And Ace 8 suited at a short table IS a HUGE hand.

Sigh.... That wasn't the point of my posts. I was curious where the other poster came up with his percentages. Obviously he couldn't explain.

I never said A8 was not a good hand short handed but, no, it is not huge. You would probably play QJs the same way. Hands that are marginal at a fulltable can gain a lot of value at a shorthanded table. The problem is that there are a ton of marginal hands. Play them hard but please realize they are not monsters... they have gained some value but do not overvalue them.

 

[Chris_TC]

No, you didn't explain. How did you come up with the percentages in bold?

Actually, it looks like I miscalculated. Here's the math:

9% chance of one of your opponents holding a better Ace (i.e. A-9, A-T, A-J, A-Q or A-K).
There are a total of 1326 starting hand combinations (52x51 / 2)
When you already hold one Ace, there are exactly 12 ways [(3x4 + 4x3) / 2] for your opponent to hold A-9, 12 ways to hold A-T, 12 ways to hold A-J, 12 ways to hold A-Q and 12 ways to hold A-K.
That's a total of 60 out of 1326 possible hands, or 4.5%.
The same is true for opponent number 2, so the correct total is ~9%.

10% chance of one of your opponents holding a pocket pair that is not 88 or AA
There are 6 ways (4x3 / 2) to be dealt any specific pocket pair that is not 88 or AA.
6 x 11 = 66 out of 1326 possible hands, or 5.0%.
Dito for the other opponent, so the correct total is ~10%.

1% chance of one of your opponents holding AA or 88.
There are 3 ways (3x2 / 2) to be dealt 88 or AA when one A and one 8 is gone.
3 x 2 = 6 out of 1326 possible hands, or 0.5%
Dito for the other opponent, so the correct total is ~1%.

 

[QITC]

Personally I fold A2-A7 without unless I'm in the blinds with no raises

But I'll call to see a flop as long as its not moe than 2x the blind with A8-AT

Otherwise I fold

That's just me tho

 

[phatjose]

I will occasionally play ace rag if it is suited and I have position. Even then, I am playing for the flush and not for the ace if it hits, since you can pretty much count on being out kicked. That's for a full table though (9 or 10 people).

Short handed, with 3 or 4, I will raise pretty much any ace I get since the odds of someone else having you beat pre flop is so low.

 

[rob5775]

Actually, it looks like I miscalculated. Here's the math:

So you hammered out how many aces and pairs are better/worse. But are they 100% better or your A8 100% worse? And what about all the rest of the starting hands? You are going on the premise that a starting hand is best without seeing all five cards, or any cards for that matter. Therefore your math is flawed.

If you take your idea then AA is a 100% favorite over KK preflop, everytime. That is not so. You have to take into account the cards to come and the cards dealt out.

Sigh.. I'm drunk so hopefully that made sense. I like your train of thought though.

 

[GivPeace]

I tend to only play Ax rag when it is suited, I will not call a raise unless in a late postion and I would consider raising on the button only if everyone behind limped in. If played right u will find your self pulling the nut flush draw more often.

 

[Chris_TC]

So you hammered out how many aces and pairs are better/worse. But are they 100% better or your A8 100% worse?

No, but this is never the case. AA vs. JJ is only an 80%.
A8s is about a 61% against Q9o.

But there's an important difference between these two examples. The Jacks are almost always going to see 5 cards, either because there's an all-in preflop (we're 3-handed after all) or because they look like they're the best hand post-flop.
The Q9o however will rarely see all 5 cards. Unless the flop comes Queen high or includes TJ, the Q9o is unlikely to make it to the river.

If the flop comes 57T rainbow, will the Jacks go away when the Aces bet out? No, they'll almost certainly see a turn and a river, giving them their full 20% against the Aces.
Even if the flop comes 58K with one overcard, the Jacks are unlikely to fold to a bet.

Now take A8s vs. Q9o. If the flop comes 57T or 57K and A8s bets out, is Queen high going to call?
Remember, Q9o is only a 39% if it sees 5 cards, not 3.

 

[thebigeasy59]

i throw it strongly in the muck