I give you a hand with a poll

[Xife]

so he puts pot size in on turn and river and you call both down and he shows some hand like A9 suited or something like that and you feel ok with that?

so basicly you let him control the whole hand and really didnt have clue what he had.

Or how about this you check and a Q hits turn and he flips over QQ and you lose where he would of folded to your continuation bet. Just seems silly to me.

I was going to say this, Or he shows up something like 99... I still agree with what I said earlier (To bet 4~5) , but am interested to see other people's view on why checking is a good decision.

 

[dbitel]

dorkus,

if villain has Ax, checking >>>> betting

storm,

1) protecting vs 2 outs is silly, esp when i might be the person that needs to see the free card drawing to 2 outs

2) Without reads, my standard line is to call turn and fold river (ie. lose exactly the same when behind as i would had I bet the flop)

 

[x-Longshot-x]

I will bet this flop nearly all the time with both AK and with 78s.

If he fires the turn, of cource I'm calling, folding would be retarded

so, you would rather let him take the lead on the turn? so he can control what goes on with the hand? Also, checking gives him a chance to catch up with something Like 89s or something retarded like that. If he has 44 and hits his set on the turn you would feel awfully silly losing this pot wouldnt you?
Checking, and saying checking is good is advocating passive play. Passive play=bad; aggressive play=good; good>bad. equations dont lie. What is your name on any site....i would love to play you sometime ^_^

 

[stormswa]

k

dorkus,

if villain has Ax, checking >>>> betting

storm,

1) protecting vs 2 outs is silly, esp when i might be the person that needs to see the free card drawing to 2 outs

2) Without reads, my standard line is to call turn and fold river (ie. lose exactly the same when behind as i would had I bet the flop)

Think I see where reasoning is going so I will wait.

I dont see it as protecting though I see it betting to see where you stand in the hand.

your 2nd line makes sense and I kinda agree with it.

 

[x-Longshot-x]

dorkus,

if ivillain has Ax, checking >>>> betting

storm,

1) protecting vs 2 outs is silly, esp when i might be the person that needs to see the free card drawing to 2 outs

2) Without reads, my standard line is to call turn and fold river (ie. lose exactly the same when behind as i would had I bet the flop)

Bold Keyword is IF what if he has 88? betting is okay?

Underline That is refrickintarded....why call on the turn and plan to fold to another bet on the river? way to lose more money!

 

[Dingodaddy23]

bet 7 and shut down if called

 

[stormswa]

actully

Bold Keyword is IF what if he has 88? betting is okay?

Underline That is refrickintarded....why call on the turn and plan to fold to another bet on the river? way to lose more money!

longshot his 2nd point makes sense, its same thing as you betting and him calling on flop then him firing on turn and u folding to his ace.


or check/check flop, him betting turn and you calling and you folding river.


actully the 2nd one is more +ev because u see more cards.


yea dude after writing that I see point.

I actully like checking here better good thread.



plus he wont always bet the river and get to see showdown.

 

[dbitel]

What is your name on any site....i would love to play you sometime ^_^

 

[x-Longshot-x]

You get too see more cards!!!! YAY lets celebrate cause guess what....so does he....dont give him the time to check up, you are behind a lot fewer hands on the flop as you are on the river.

Here are the way the hands can play out

Bet Flop-He Folds-You win
Bet Flop-He raises-You Fold
Bet Flop-He calls-Checks turn-You revaluate
Bet Flop-He calls-Bets turn-you fold

If you check tou are setting yourself up to get bluffed if he has the gusto to fire 2 bullets. You are also setting yourself up to lose more money than you should. If you are going to fold the river then you shouldnt even call the turn bet. if you do you are saying that you are calling for your 2 outs which is a bad move

 

[stormswa]

well

I love to argue with this guy but I have to admit throwing around different things that could happen during hand, checking it seems to be the best +ev.


with KK with a ace out you really want to go to showdown and playing it by checking you most likley will get to go to at least the river and maybe even see a cheap showdown. A-rag usually wont bet the whole hand because they are scared there ace is no good. You get to see showdown and see what villian will run, also not even putting into account how much he will bluff.

 

[stormswa]

no

You get too see more cards!!!! YAY lets celebrate cause guess what....so does he....dont give him the time to check up, you are behind a lot fewer hands on the flop as you are on the river.

Here are the way the hands can play out

Bet Flop-He Folds-You win
Bet Flop-He raises-You Fold
Bet Flop-He calls-Checks turn-You revaluate
Bet Flop-He calls-Bets turn-you fold

If you check tou are setting yourself up to get bluffed if he has the gusto to fire 2 bullets. You are also setting yourself up to lose more money than you should. If you are going to fold the river then you shouldnt even call the turn bet. if you do you are saying that you are calling for your 2 outs which is a bad move

just because he bets the turn dosent mean he is betting the river longshot, you are assuming this guy is going to fire a 2nd bullet on river. Ace rag usually wont and you lose same amount as if you would bet flop but guess what you get to see showdown this time.

if the guy wants to bluff this board then let him and wait for better spot to bust him. You are letting your emotions cloud your thinking, your my buddie longshot but you really need to step back and think about this.

also lets get off this I will play you anywhere bs, we are all here to learn from eachother not prove how much better we are then eachother.

 

[x-Longshot-x]

just because he bets the turn dosent mean he is betting the river longshot, you are assuming this guy is going to fire a 2nd bullet on river. Ace rag usually wont and you lose same amount as if you would bet flop but guess what you get to see showdown this time.

if the guy wants to bluff this board then let him and wait for better spot to bust him. You are letting your emotions cloud your thinking, your my buddie longshot but you really need to step back and think about this.

also lets get off this I will play you anywhere bs, we are all here to learn from eachother not prove how much better we are then eachother.

Im not gonna say anything else....checking is passive play....passive play is -ev nuff said

 

[stormswa]

well

Im not gonna say anything else....checking is passive play....passive play is -ev nuff said

what if you induce him to bluff, thats +ev


just because you are the on not betting dosent mean you arnt controlling hand! think about it.

 

[x-Longshot-x]

what if you induce him to bluff, thats +ev

but we arent trying to induce him to bluff? i thought we werent sure where we were? so how can we induce a bluff when we arent sure if we have the best hand? also inducing a bluff isnt +ev if you are folding to the river bluff

 

[dbitel]

Im not gonna say anything else....checking is passive play....passive play is -ev nuff said

and who told you this?

It sounds to me like a concept misapplied. Do you truly believe that there is no spot where it is better to be passive than aggressive?

 

[stormswa]

huh

but we arent trying to induce him to bluff? i thought we werent sure where we were? so how can we induce a bluff when we arent sure if we have the best hand? also inducing a bluff isnt +ev if you are folding to the river bluff

who said we are folding everytime? if he checks turn also and makes a real stupid small bet we might be calling.

I know we arnt trying to get him to bluff but im saying what if he does?

are hand is strong but not real stong at this point we want to get to showdown cheap.


play big pots with big hand and small pots with weak hands, with ace out our KK becomes somewhat weak, its still strong but not real strong.

 

[x-Longshot-x]

and who told you this?

It sounds to me like a concept misapplied. Do you truly believe that there is no spot where it is better to be passive than aggressive?

yes there are some spots, and this is not one of them, i just do not understand why you would not only let him see two more cards but also call the bet on the turn but not on the river.....just wondering here.....what if he checks on the turn? do you check again? or do you lead out? and if he RR you?......you cannot play scared just because the only overcard in the deck fell...thats just not right....if you are going to play passively like this each time the ace hits you might as well chuck it preflop

 

[Dingodaddy23]

well i replied before i read all the other replies, and now I see what you are trying to explain. I know its a WA/WB situation, but I was of the thought that checking right here would show too much weakness and cause us to be moved off the best hand too often? I see you say your standard line is to call turn, fold river, so you lose as much when behind as you win when ahead, which makes perfect sense, but what is your play vs an ultra-aggro villian. You say you'll be firing at this flop with AK, so doesn't checking behind sorta turn your hand face up to a smart villian? And if that's the case, they will be double barrelling with a higher frequency. I dunno, maybe im just thinking too much, is this one of those times where you may or may not have the best hand but you can certainly find a better spot? Or do you take the call turn fold river line because most villains at 100 NL are very unlikely to double barrel bluff on this board against the preflop raiser?

 

[x-Longshot-x]

who said we are folding everytime? if he checks turn also and makes a real stupid small bet we might be calling.

I know we arnt trying to get him to bluff but im saying what if he does?

are hand is strong but not real stong at this point we want to get to showdown cheap.


play big pots with big hand and small pots with weak hands, with ace out our KK becomes somewhat weak, its still strong but not real strong.

I still do not see how giving him a chance to catch up is a good idea? what if he is playing JJ or something and catches up? it just makes no sense

 

[stormswa]

wish I had time

yes there are some spots, and this is not one of them, i just do not understand why you would not only let him see two more cards but also call the bet on the turn but not on the river.....just wondering here.....what if he checks on the turn? do you check again? or do you lead out? and if he RR you?......you cannot play scared just because the only overcard in the deck fell...thats just not right....if you are going to play passively like this each time the ace hits you might as well chuck it preflop

I wish I had time to explain to you what I have learned through thread and private message with new guy (sorry forgot name). Im sure he will explain it, I have to go but trust me its pretty interesting concept longshot. Just be open to new ways to play hands longshot, get your nose out of the begginer poker book.

its a advanced concept that is used.

 

[x-Longshot-x]

I wish I had time to explain to you what I have learned through thread and private message with new guy (sorry forgot name). Im sure he will explain it, I have to go but trust me its pretty interesting concept longshot. Just be open to new ways to play hands longshot, get your nose out of the begginer poker book.

its a advanced concept that is used.

If he can explain the play fully to the point where i understand how more money will be won by playing it this way then i will understand. But until it is explained im betting the flop

 

[zebranky]

If he can explain the play fully to the point where i understand how more money will be won by playing it this way then i will understand. But until it is explained im betting the flop

I'm with Longshot here - I'd love to see any realistic logic of why you shouldn't bet this one. I, for one, fail to see any way to increase your longterm profit on this one without betting the flop. Without knowing that your opponent is the tightest "I only play hands made of A's and K's" guy, I just don't understand how checking helps you. I can see potentially making more money on this particular hand by checking through and hitting a K, or betting a huge river as a semi-bluff, but the risk-return on that is pathetic longterm.

So - not to be rude - but if you don't have time to explain why checking is better, don't waste our time by saying you know but don't have time to tell us. It just makes you sound like someone trying to be knowledgable with no reality to back it up. Unless your name is Negranu or Ivey in real life, nobody is going to simply take your word on it. Show me.

 

[x-Longshot-x]

I'm with Longshot here - I'd love to see any realistic logic of why you shouldn't bet this one. I, for one, fail to see any way to increase your longterm profit on this one without betting the flop. Without knowing that your opponent is the tightest "I only play hands made of A's and K's" guy, I just don't understand how checking helps you. I can see potentially making more money on this particular hand by checking through and hitting a K, or betting a huge river as a semi-bluff, but the risk-return on that is pathetic longterm.

So - not to be rude - but if you don't have time to explain why checking is better, don't waste our time by saying you know but don't have time to tell us. It just makes you sound like someone trying to be knowledgable with no reality to back it up. Unless your name is Negranu or Ivey in real life, nobody is going to simply take your word on it. Show me.

well, it wasnt swa who said the play was right at first...it was someone else..swa had to go on a cruise....so i dont blame him, but i want this other guy to explain it for sure

 

[CACADETORO]

I would probably come out betting pot , but if he still calls down or reraises i would fold and show kk/
that's one of my bad hands to play , always an ace on flop, or turn or river lol

 

[RiverNoHelp]

I would probably come out betting pot , but if he still calls down or reraises i would fold and show kk/
that's one of my bad hands to play , always an ace on flop, or turn or river lol

I wouldn't show there cacade..That could give your opponent valuable information..If you will show that you'll fold to a bet everytime an overcard to your pocket pair flops, you'll be giving away chips..Actually, I would possibly call all the way down(within reason, and read dependent of course) and then show your KK to let your opponent know you aren't scared of playing a big hand to the river even if an overcard hits..