$100 NLHE 6-max: Fast playing Ts vs 60VPIP

[Alucard]

UPoker - $1 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

SB: 208.5 BB
Hero (BB): 126 BB
UTG: 91 BB
MP: 111.4 BB
CO: 125.9 BB
BTN: 55.6 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Tc Td
fold, MP calls 1 BB, CO calls 1 BB, BTN calls 1 BB, fold, Hero raises to 11 BB, MP calls 10 BB, fold, BTN calls 10 BB

Flop : (34.5 BB, 3 players) 3c 4h 2s
Hero bets 23 BB, MP calls 23 BB, fold

Turn : (80.5 BB, 2 players) Kc
Hero bets 80.5 BB, MP calls 77.4 BB and is all-in

64 vpip whale. analysis? didn't want to play 3strts

 

[fundiver199]

Think this is fine given the player type. Its unlikely, the K helped him, and I think, he will still call with worse like his 55-99 or his AX gutshots.

 

[Aballinamion]

UPoker - $1 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

SB: 208.5 BB
Hero (BB): 126 BB
UTG: 91 BB
MP: 111.4 BB
CO: 125.9 BB
BTN: 55.6 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Tc Td
fold, MP calls 1 BB, CO calls 1 BB, BTN calls 1 BB, fold, Hero raises to 11 BB, MP calls 10 BB, fold, BTN calls 10 BB

Flop : (34.5 BB, 3 players) 3c 4h 2s
Hero bets 23 BB, MP calls 23 BB, fold

Turn : (80.5 BB, 2 players) Kc
Hero bets 80.5 BB, MP calls 77.4 BB and is all-in

64 vpip whale. analysis? didn't want to play 3strts

Lol, why didn't you raise 20 blinds? The question is why to use such a large sizings to play out of positions versus 60 VPIP whale, what is the point?
If you raised that much (11 BB) and everybody folds, it sucks. If you raised that much (11 BB) and whale in position calls, it sucks too.

The Preflop

Both MP and BTN calls, now there is a pot of 35 blinds, and we are out of position in relation to the whales, sounds good?

The postflop

The Flop

With such a huge ammount of blinds/risk involved, there is no point for exploitation out of position, no point in going for 2/3 pot, having information that Whale types are playing "faced-up" games, so they are going to call when they have us beat and fold when we have them beat, period.

The Turn

Preposterous move. Totally non-sense, because now Whale can call only with Kx, and hands that have us dead and fold all the rest. If we continue playing out of position, using exploitative lines such as this we are going to lose very much.
I also don't see the point in turning a strong value hand (TT) into a bluff here: we own nothing but a pocket pair, no draws, nothing, we are just speculating our opponent is weak enough to be calling down with air or 99, 88, etc.

PS: If you don't want to play 3 streets, for any personal reason, sit out of the table and go drink a glass of water. Once you decided to play poker, you gotta have solid reasons for your basic decisions, and not any excuse because "I didn't want to play 3 streets".

It is possible that you win this hand, but I find it very hard to believe. Besides, we are not result oriented, we do the best we can with incomplete information, which is not the case.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[elizeuof]

Why you bet so high on the turn with this K on the board? This card are in the villain range, if you don't have a good reason this will not be a profitable move.

It's strange when you bet so high, seems more a bluff, because a worthy hand will try to extract value and with this bet your play for kick out the player from the hand.

 

[Alucard]

Lol, why didn't you raise 20 blinds? The question is why to use such a large sizings to play out of positions versus 60 VPIP whale, what is the point?
If you raised that much (11 BB) and everybody folds, it sucks. If you raised that much (11 BB) and whale in position calls, it sucks too.

what are you even talking about? your eentire comment shows that you are totally clueless about the hand
It's so pointless posting hands on cc at times

 

[Aballinamion]

what are you even talking about? your eentire comment shows that you are totally clueless about the hand
It's so pointless posting hands on cc at times

I am going to reply this out of respect.

First of all: try to be kind and polite when someone analyse your hands. We have no obligations here, we do it because we enjoy doing so.

Second of all, the forum is not meant only for you.

With all due respect mate, you are clueless about the hand.

I am thinking as a meta-game structure, all the times, and when you elect to raise 11 blinds preflop, purely for fish exploitation, I have to comment about it, because other players might think that because you are playing 100 NLHE, which is a medium-poor stake, anything you do at the tables could be correct: this is not true.

To me is quite simple to observe that as many chips you decide to put in the pot, as soon as possible you are jamming. My point is that raising 11 blinds preflop, whether our opponents are regulars or fishes is clueless.

What causes me even more surprise is that you didn't change your preflop plan and decided to go for stacks postflop, not because you had equity, not because we bet for value and for bluff, not for any logical and rational reason, but you went for stacks because your opponent is a clueless 60 VPIP 'ish' fish.

Try to respect people who are trying to help you, instead of only complaining about the forum and the nice people who spend their sole times trying to help you. This is very rude from your part and the forum moderators should not allow this clueless behavior, for no reason but a damn gigantic personal ego.

If you don't like don't read, just try to respect others and their basic opinions/comments.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[Aballinamion]

By the way, I will never comment your hands anymore for your satisfaction.
You act very impolite and rude and that I cannot accept as a person and as a player.
If you are so good, keep your hands for yourself. Once you share them you must be prepared to comprehend one's rationality.

I have to bitch about it, you are always complaining about my comments, either because they are too long, either because you don't like, whatever, now be happy because there is one less clueless person to comment your awesome hands, have a nice day.

Respect always isn't just a personal moto.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[Alucard]

Lol, why didn't you raise 20 blinds?

Both MP and BTN calls, now there is a pot of 35 blinds, and we are out of position in relation to the whales, sounds good?

Preposterous move. Totally non-sense,

PS: If you don't want to play 3 streets, for any personal reason, sit out of the table and go drink a glass of water. Once you decided to play poker, you gotta have solid reasons for your basic decisions, and not any excuse because "I didn't want to play 3 streets".

your comment is filled up with making fun of my play using rude language as quoted above and you reply that my comment is insulting?
Saying "regards" at the end doesn't make it any better
Anyway you do you & enjoy the forum

I have to bitch about it, you are always complaining about my comments, either because they are too long, either because you don't like, whatever, now be happy because there is one less clueless person to comment your awesome hands, have a nice day.

Also point out a single time I was complaining about you & calling you out if you can
If I said anything it was constructive critisicm or a request for everyone commenting

And also if I feel confident of my game that I take others advice with a grain of salt(specially the ones in cc who doesn't post hands or play any cash games or stakes near me), it is because I've put a lot of work & effort to my game & continue to do so & that's the reason why I've made a living out of the game.

 

[beginnerbot]

I think playing this way vs a whale is fine. You want to be able to stack them off when they have a worse pair. However, I would bet a bit bigger on the flop. Draws will likely still call on the flop even if it was pot, but fold to either a 2/3 or pot turn bet

 

[John A]

I think it looks fine. Considering stack size I might have bet a little more on the flop to make the turn shove easier. But it's fine against a whale.

 

[c0rnBr34d]

I'm curious to how you came to the pre flop raise size. I would have considered 7 BB standard. I get that we can size up vs whales but I'm just curious how you came to the number 11 BB.

I also think post flop is fine. Sure we can size up flop a tad but BTN is already super short so this probably works best in a 3 way pot. If it was heads up vs MP then I would be more inclined to size up flop to set up the turn jam.

 

[okeedokalee]

"Preposterous move. Totally non-sense, because now Whale can call only with Kx, and hands that have us dead and fold all the rest. "
Carlos, you say the Whale will play when when he is ahead but fold behind. My experience of Whales is that they spray chips regardless of where they stand on any street.

 

[Alucard]

I'm curious to how you came to the pre flop raise size. I would have considered 7 BB standard. I get that we can size up vs whales but I'm just curious how you came to the number 11 BB.

No real math behind it. If it were a 3x UTG open I'd be 3betting 4x(12BBs) so I wanted to play as a similar 3bet pot here by lowering spr. Also once I know he is a bit inelastic I can size it up without much of a worry

 

[razzor94]

Don't know if Aballinamion is being serious or trolling
Anyway the line seems fine to me. He can surely call worse given the info.
Also he might fold underpairs, pair+ STD on some rivers so I really like the turn shove.

 

[Aballinamion]

"Preposterous move. Totally non-sense, because now Whale can call only with Kx, and hands that have us dead and fold all the rest. "
Carlos, you say the Whale will play when when he is ahead but fold behind. My experience of Whales is that they spray chips regardless of where they stand on any street.

Thanks for your attention and reply here mate. I will answer this out of respect for the CardsChat community.

Yes, I agree that I have exaggerated, Whales can do anything, including calling down a push OTT when it comes an overcard, having an underpair or a lower pocket pair.

This is not the point of the hand anymore. The point is that I made a very simple comment and the poster seemed not to undertand, which is very strange for me, because it plays 100 NLHE not 2 NLHE:

When I say that the player was polarizing its bet preflop, and the player says that it doesn't understand what I am saying, it looks like a mockery, irony, sarcasm.

Besides, other players had said exactly the same I did, but the poster didn't waste its time to tell others that they are "clueless", but for me.

You are right, whales spread chips regardless of the board configuration sometimes, but at 100 NLHE we don't expect it to happen very often.
The point I was trying to figure out is quite simple:

1) We bet for Value and for bluff, not because we felt ourselves on the mood for putting chips on the table, like the poster showed in its own comment.

2) We avoid to turn strong value hands into bluff, unless on very specific scenarios: TT is a very strong hand, but when it comes a Jx, Qx, Kx or Ax, we need to rethink and evaluate the situation again.

3) When we elect to jam OTT, and that's that I was trying to say with my poor comment is that is completely non-sense, to give the recreational player the opportunity to be folding 99, 88, 77, and other losing hands and to call down only when it have us beat. They can be calling with trash hands, but once we give the chance for them, we are being the recreational ourselves.

4) Yes, it seems that many hands are played like this, with no interest into logics and poker structure, but only about ego situations and that's I cannot stand. For this reason I am going to quit my posts here on the forum.

5) When we jam OTT, and we expect worst hands to be paying we are being so recreational. When we jam OTT we have no other option, we turned a value hand into a bluff and now only god can decide our lives: poker is a game where we have options, we can choose between, betting, checking, the sizing of our bets, it is the only thing we can really control and when I see these exploitative lines, versus players that DO NOT THINK ABOUT THE GAME, I feel myself overwhelmed and embarassed at the same time.
I feel ashamed to be a poker player when I see that.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[Alucard]

This is not the point of the hand anymore. The point is that I made a very simple comment and the poster seemed not to undertand, which is very strange for me, because it plays 100 NLHE not 2 NLHE:

You are right, whales spread chips regardless of the board configuration sometimes, but at 100 NLHE we don't expect it to happen very often.

2NL,100NL it doesn't vary much. 60VPIP fish is still a massive fish. Finding these kind of players in higher limits is a skill itself.

When I say that the player was polarizing its bet preflop, and the player says that it doesn't understand what I am saying, it looks like a mockery, irony, sarcasm.

Besides, other players had said exactly the same I did, but the poster didn't waste its time to tell others that they are "clueless", but for me.

As I quoted above your entire comment is making fun of my play intentionally or not. It's quite ironic you lash out after that.
The only reason I called out out there is because of that.

1) We bet for Value and for bluff, not because we felt ourselves on the mood for putting chips on the table, like the poster showed in its own comment.

I said I didn't want to play 3strts not because of how I was feeling. You've completely misinterpreted that. It's because I wanted to GII within 2streets because the board is not favouring us & can have bad runouts that can draw him the nuts or completely kill the action

2) We avoid to turn strong value hands into bluff, unless on very specific scenarios: TT is a very strong hand, but when it comes a Jx, Qx, Kx or Ax, we need to rethink and evaluate the situation again.

3) When we elect to jam OTT, and that's that I was trying to say with my poor comment is that is completely non-sense, to give the recreational player the opportunity to be folding 99, 88, 77, and other losing hands and to call down only when it have us beat. They can be calling with trash hands, but once we give the chance for them, we are being the recreational ourselves.

This is not a bluff jam. It's a value jam. The K on turn isn't that relavant at all. Sure he can have some Kx that have us beat but he has way more weaker holdings or draws that would call to hit that we are ahead of
How does getting it in good makes us the recreational?

4) Yes, it seems that many hands are played like this, with no interest into logics and poker structure, but only about ego situations and that's I cannot stand. For this reason I am going to quit my posts here on the forum.

If I play a hand correctly exploiting a player type would that be wrong & based on my ego?
Again these type of comments show that you aren't understanting the hand properly.

5) When we jam OTT, and we expect worst hands to be paying we are being so recreational. When we jam OTT we have no other option, we turned a value hand into a bluff and now only god can decide our lives: poker is a game where we have options, we can choose between, betting, checking, the sizing of our bets, it is the only thing we can really control and when I see these exploitative lines, versus players that DO NOT THINK ABOUT THE GAME,

Again, how does making worse hands pay out by jamming on turn makes us the rec?
Again, this isn't a bluff

Again, I play poker for a living, I've played around half a million hands 100NL+, I pay for subscriptions/content to improve my game, I post hands daily in mulitiple forums & channels.
So excuse me for not taking your advice or similar peoples' who doesn't post hands or play stakes anywhere near me while making fun of my game using rude language

 

[fundiver199]

The Turn

Preposterous move. Totally non-sense, because now Whale can call only with Kx, and hands that have us dead and fold all the rest.

Even a whale typically has some kind of logic to, what he does, and in this case he called a very large isolation raise preflop and a big C-bet on the flop in a big pot. So first of all the K is not that relevant, since it rarely hit him. Even a whale probably does not call 11BB preflop with K2-K5, and those were the only KX hands, that connected with the flop.

For sure he will sometimes have a hand, that beat Hero, like he made a silly limp-call with AK, and now he has top pair. Or he flopped a straight and played it slow. Or he does in fact have K4 or 32. But in general we should be looking at a lot of AX, and this is why, it makes sense to GGI on the turn. If we check, we are essentially giving him a free card to draw out on us. And if we bet small like 30% pot, he is not making a mistake, if he sticks around.

Just imagine, that you are Villain, and you have a hand like AJ. Which turn action would you not want to see, a check, a small bet, or a jam? The answer is, you would not want to see a jam, because then you would have to give up and fold. And whatever our opponent does not want us to do, is typically the line of action, we should look to take.

 

[Ahoy]

LOL this Nemo guy is clueless

 

[Aballinamion]

Even a whale typically has some kind of logic to, what he does, and in this case he called a very large isolation raise preflop and a big C-bet on the flop in a big pot. So first of all the K is not that relevant, since it rarely hit him. Even a whale probably does not call 11BB preflop with K2-K5, and those were the only KX hands, that connected with the flop.

For sure he will sometimes have a hand, that beat Hero, like he made a silly limp-call with AK, and now he has top pair. Or he flopped a straight and played it slow. Or he does in fact have K4 or 32. But in general we should be looking at a lot of AX, and this is why, it makes sense to GGI on the turn. If we check, we are essentially giving him a free card to draw out on us. And if we bet small like 30% pot, he is not making a mistake, if he sticks around.

Just imagine, that you are Villain, and you have a hand like AJ. Which turn action would you not want to see, a check, a small bet, or a jam? The answer is, you would not want to see a jam, because then you would have to give up and fold. And whatever our opponent does not want us to do, is typically the line of action, we should look to take.

Okay mate, thanks for the input, I will take it under consideration.

What I am trying to say here is that is against the rules of the forum to post things like "your reasoning is clueless", without presenting a solid argument to defend your proposition.
It is offensive to me, and to the poker community a person who explain everything with one single dubious phrase and do not explain its reasons/motives, which is a little of lack of respect, not only to me, but with everyone who comes to read and appreciate the community.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[Aballinamion]

Cash Game Forum

LOL this Nemo guy is clueless

First things first:

What should be posted here:

Any questions regarding specific strategies or strategic concepts relating to cash games. This could include, but is not limited to:

• Psychological questions and advice (i.e. topics regarding tilt, ego, etc.)
• Meta-game concepts and theories
• Position play
• Table selection
• Bankroll Management
• Live cash game session strategy discussion (either private home games or in casinos)

Link: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/cash-game-forum-posting-guidelines-71901/

So, very clear for all the users that simply acuse someone of "clueless" or "idiot" it is not enough to fullfil the rules of the forum: Psychological, meta-game, position, table selection, how offending another mate can be something creative and constructive for us here in the forum?

I will say it no more, if any of you insist with this preposterous subject I will report this to the gambling Comission.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[Ahoy]

First things first:

What should be posted here:

Any questions regarding specific strategies or strategic concepts relating to cash games. This could include, but is not limited to:

• Psychological questions and advice (i.e. topics regarding tilt, ego, etc.)
• Meta-game concepts and theories
• Position play
• Table selection
• Bankroll Management
• Live cash game session strategy discussion (either private home games or in casinos)

Link: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/cash-game-forum-posting-guidelines-71901/

So, very clear for all the users that simply acuse someone of "clueless" or "idiot" it is not enough to fullfil the rules of the forum: Psychological, meta-game, position, table selection, how offending another mate can be something creative and constructive for us here in the forum?

I will say it no more, if any of you insist with this preposterous subject I will report this to the Gambling Comission.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

Hey, I am sorry that my post offended you!

However, I think my post clearly doesnt break the rules, since you being clueless is directly related to meta-game! You should definitely work on this aspect Nemo!

Thanks for your opinion though and have a nice day! :ciao:

 

[Aballinamion]

2NL,100NL it doesn't vary much. 60VPIP fish is still a massive fish. Finding these kind of players in higher limits is a skill itself.

It is a skill to have and to use a HUD tracker? It is a skill if we really know how to use it, but you only posted "64 VPIP, whale", for how many hands played?
This is not how we use a HUD, because for a small number of hands this could be totally untrue.

I said I didn't want to play 3strts not because of how I was feeling. You've completely misinterpreted that. It's because I wanted to GII within 2streets because the board is not favouring us & can have bad runouts that can draw him the nuts or completely kill the action

Yeah, this is one point to consider about the hand, not the entire truth. Sorry if I misread your intentions.

This is not a bluff jam. It's a value jam. The K on turn isn't that relavant at all. Sure he can have some Kx that have us beat but he has way more weaker holdings or draws that would call to hit that we are ahead of
How does getting it in good makes us the recreational?

Yeah, the Kx on the turn it is relevant to me. We cannot say for sure what our opponent is going to do because you didn't describe the hand properly, so we have no idea if this 64 VPIP is for 10 hands, 100 hands or 1000 hands, which changes a lot the force of your push OTT.

Again, I play poker for a living, I've played around half a million hands 100NL+, I pay for subscriptions/content to improve my game, I post hands daily in mulitiple forums & channels.
So excuse me for not taking your advice or similar peoples' who doesn't post hands or play stakes anywhere near me while making fun of my game using rude language

Sorry, no offense given here, but if you have played only half million hands, you cannot call yourself a professional. I believe that you might live out of poker, but it doesn't mean you are a solid winning player.
And again, you are lacking too much with respect, this is why I decided to go to your level, and forget about respect with you myself.

I sorry the community for this unfortunate discussion, which brings nothing new in terms of theory, comprehension, meta-game, psychological, but only about a player that believes that the world spins around its own neck.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[Alucard]

And again, you are lacking too much with respect, this is why I decided to go to your level, and forget about respect with you myself.

I sorry the community for this unfortunate discussion, which brings nothing new in terms of theory, comprehension, meta-game, psychological, but only about a player that believes that the world spins around its own neck.

Isn't it ironical that you lash out after being the first one to be a total douchebag in this thread?

After 80% the posters & their comments have agreed with my play & heavily disagrees with your entire analysis & your attitude, you still think you're the one who's right.
That sums up who thinks the world spins around his own neck

 

[gustav197poker]

I think you got the maximum EV on this hand, and that's it. You have decided to show us your work of superior quality, and your game was optimal for this particular situation. I think against that we can only say NH and GG.
Let's face it, we are poker players, and as such the best thing for us is to maximize the EV in each hand that we have to face.
However, if we didn't have specific readings about our opponent this would NOT be an optimal line, because in this sequence the villain would only call us on the turn with hands that beat us (that part of Carlos is totally correct and true at the same time). But this was not the case, because hero could observe very specific situations. For example showdowns with super bad hands, etc.
It is true that point that Alucard cites, there are many factors that we ignore about the hand, because we have not been there at that table.
On the other hand, I think that when people post their hands on this forum, they do so as a gesture of good faith. Especially when it comes to above-average stakes.
Because it is not optimal for a serious player to reveal all the information he has about his hand, for obvious reasons.
So we must also be considerate of players who decide to show us their hands so that we can learn and improve our game. And if necessary, to make constructive criticism. I think that respecting different opinions and accepting them, without going in to disqualify anyone, will definitely make us improve our game. Which is ultimately the main reason we're all here.
Greetings.

 

[c0rnBr34d]

Lol, why didn't you raise 20 blinds?
what is the point?
everybody folds, it sucks.
whale in position calls, it sucks too.
now there is a pot of 35 blinds, and we are out of position in relation to the whales, sounds good?
there is no point for exploitation out of position,
no point in going for 2/3 pot,
they have us beat and fold when we have them beat, period.
Preposterous move.
Totally non-sense,
If we continue playing out of position, using exploitative lines such as this we are going to lose very much.
don't see the point
we are just speculating
PS: If you don't want to play 3 streets, for any personal reason, sit out of the table and go drink a glass of water.
It is possible that you win this hand, but I find it very hard to believe.

Not to pile on but this feels like an intervention and your whole initial post reads like a roast. Your language is not constructive regardless of whether your opinions on the hand are correct. This has been a theme for you on occasion. What's it's "hard to believe" is that you somehow don't realize how mocking, insulting, and condescending your tone is when you disagree.

It's almost comical that you then turn around and get defensive when someone does the same thing to you. It's ok for you to say a move or logic is Preposterous, Totally nonsense, speculation, no point, flat out laugh out loud at it, and declare several times that it loses 100% of the time when called "period", and it's "very hard to believe" otherwise. But then get your feelings hurt that someone thinks your logic is "clueless".

You should try following your own advice. How can you not see the disrespect in your own posts and then say to others:
"If you don't like don't read, just try to respect others and their basic opinions/comments."