When to let go of KK, QQ, AK, AA preflop?

[PurgatoryD]

If you have KK or QQ in a tournament, a healthy preflop raise is typically in order to get rid of the ace rag and/or king rag hands. However, when you do that and someone pushes all-in, what guidelines do you use to call?

I'm thinking it comes down to stack sizes, the read you have on the player pushing, and how many other players still have an opportunity to go all-in.

That's just the warm up. The real killer hand for me is AK. When can you call an all-in of similar stack size as your own with this hand? It's a loser to 22. But it dominates AQ, AJ, AT, etc. Do you just have to have a good read? A lot of people play AQ, AJ, AT preflop the same way they play TT or JJ, so it can be tough to tell. In one case, you're doing great, and in the other you're flipping a coin.

I'm beginning to wonder if I'm getting too attached to my AK.

Also, what about AA? Do you only call an all-in of similar stack size as your own if you can ensure that you'll be heads up?

I just need some advice as to when I should be letting these hands go, especailly as it applies specifically to tournament play.

Thanks,
-Dave

 

[OzExorcist]

I think there's a bit of a mindset issue here. The biggest reason to raise KK/QQ/etc preflop is for value. If Ax/Kx hands call you then fine - most of they time they won't outflop you and they'll just be throwing their money away.

Reads / situation / stack sizes obviously all play a big role in when you call a shove. Outside of some really totally obscure satellite bubble situation though I'm never folding AA preflop and I'm rarely folding KK preflop.

 

[No Brainer]

I dont think it is ever wise to throw away AA before the flop. The odds are going to be in your favour any wa you look at it.

KK and QQ you need to be looking at the situation, what stage of the tourny are you at? How many players are all in before you? How many players are behind you? Whats everyones stack sizes? plus how much of your stack is already commited? And then obviously take into account any reads you have on the person/people that are all-in...

AK is a tougher decision, I personally dont risk going all in with AK until a fairly late stage of the tourny...

 

[kidkvno1]

When you see an all-in raise ... I shoved all-in with AA, the one who called had KK, lost big time .
AA i am calling you...
KK AK QQ, if i know the player to be tight i would end up folding.
AQ i called 3 all-ins and was beat,,,, by lower PP...

Also, what about AA? Do you only call an all-in of similar stack size as your own if you can ensure that you'll be heads up?

Heads up, with AA is the best way to go Preflop, you only want 1 player in the hand.

 

[Maid Marian]

When you see an all-in raise ... I shoved all-in with AA, the one who called had KK, lost big time .
AA i am calling you...
KK AK QQ, if i know the player to be tight i would end up folding.
AQ i called 3 all-ins and was beat,,,, by lower PP...

Heads up, with AA is the best way to go Preflop, you only want 1 player in the hand.

I've lost with AA twice...the 1st time when I saw 99 come up in the flop...I went all-in & lost to 9999! The last time was in a CC game...one player went all-in preflop & so did I...I thought what could he have better than my AA...he showed 99...I was winning till another 9 swept up in the river! But, I would do the same again...the next time may not be so lucky for my opponent!

 

[Aqqachar]

If i ain't on the bubble in a satellite mtt, i would never ever think of folding pocket aces preflop!

 

[CAMurray]

I have laid down AA preflop one time. I was playing Full Tilt’s Daily Dollar where the last 200 make a buck. There were 203 players remaining. I was short stacked & on the button. Seat 5, the chip leader shoves and this guy is playing everything and winning with it. I folded my Aces very slowly and coasted into the lap of luxury.


:vroam:

 

[PoKeRFoRNiA]

I've folded QQ during pre-flop few times. If you have strong read that your opponent has AA/KK/AK at least, or at least Ace in their hand and you don't want to put your tournament life at risk while being in leaderboard or lose your whole chipstack while playing deep cash games, you can fold KK/QQ/JJ/TT if you're not even pot-committed or haven't investing anything into the pot. Other time to fold QQ is if pre-flop is likely going to be multi-way all-in pot. I've folded QQ before. Here's the proof of me laying down Queens during pre-flop

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/general-poker-13/sick-call-sick-laydown-158756/

I layed it down because I was deep stacked in cash games but one of tight-aggressive player who haven't played a single pot for a long time reraised on top of me and there was a maniac who shoved all-in with random hand. Strictly looking at my odds, I can only hope for coin-flip at best. I gave the tight-aggressive player who haven't played a pot for a long time a benefit of a doubt and put him under AA/KK/AK.

 

[teksmith]

I don't think I'm letting go of AA or KK preflop even on the bubble. Otherwise position plays a big part in my decision. In the blinds I won't play if there is a lot of raising and calling going on but I might call min raise with at least AQ.

 

[elbandiddo32]

I like these preflop and will usually bet the bank on it. you are probably a favorite against most calls but i do recognize that it is only a pair and can be beat. However i like to put my money in with the best hand!

 

[PurgatoryD]

Thanks for all the replies! A lot of the advice is in line with what I have seen on the tables, so that's good.

Also, it looks like I'm not the only one who struggles with AK. I like to be aggressive with that one, but I'm getting more and more willing to lay it down.

Thanks again,
-Dave

 

[Lonsdaleite]

There actually is a time to throw away aces preflop. When you are on the bubble, you are the second largest stack, the largest stack goes all in, and the tournament prizes for everyone placing ITM is the same. For instance, top 10 places win a ticket to an event.

 

[JimmyBrizzy]

If you have KK or QQ in a tournament, a healthy preflop raise is typically in order to get rid of the ace rag and/or king rag hands. However, when you do that and someone pushes all-in, what guidelines do you use to call?

I think you're missing the fact that we want these Ax and Kx hands to come along to the flop. This has a +EV for us as long as we don't have some major leaks postflop. Whenever they call with a worse hand preflop w/o the odds we are gaining value from those mistakes. What exactly do you mean by "healthy preflop raise"?

Early in a tournament you should be getting it all in without much second thought w/ QQ+ (disregarding any extremely strong and accurate reads on opposing players).

Reads / situation / stack sizes obviously all play a big role in when you call a shove. Outside of some really totally obscure satellite bubble situation though I'm never folding AA preflop and I'm rarely folding KK preflop.

Yeah I think there's an example of this in either Harrington on Hold'em I or II, not sure but it's a very rare situation.

 

[spiderman637]

I would say its really low strategy to throw of AA or KK preflop....
Yeah, you can throw away QQ,JJ,QJ sometimes if u see too many preflop allins...
But with AA or KK or even AK suited(sometimes), u have to call the preflop raises, and might even consider going allin !!!

 

[ljove]

AA I must go all in if I got reraised pre-flop.

 

[PurgatoryD]

I think there's a bit of a mindset issue here. The biggest reason to raise KK/QQ/etc preflop is for value. If Ax/Kx hands call you then fine - most of they time they won't outflop you and they'll just be throwing their money away.

I think you're missing the fact that we want these Ax and Kx hands to come along to the flop. This has a +EV for us as long as we don't have some major leaks postflop. Whenever they call with a worse hand preflop w/o the odds we are gaining value from those mistakes.

OK, I think I'm starting to see what you guys are getting at. Last night I played in the FTP USA Freeroll and I did a lot more raising preflop for the purpose of value. I don't know if it was that or that I just got good cards, but out of 7500 people I finished in 14th place. My pots were paying off much better and I was never short stacked until right before I got knocked out. Man, I love playing when I'm not short stacked. It's so much easier to be aggressive because people are more likely to back down since you out-stack them.

I think you're both right; I was too focused on not losing the hand vs increasing the EV of my hands. Thanks for the advice. That really did help.

My suspicion is that there are some +EV bets that should not be made in a tournament, but let me think on that some more and then I'll start a new thread. Tournament play is a little tricky because if you get eliminated on the bubble, you don't get paid!

Thanks again!
-Dave

 

[azforlife]

I think there's a bit of a mindset issue here. The biggest reason to raise KK/QQ/etc preflop is for value. If Ax/Kx hands call you then fine - most of they time they won't outflop you and they'll just be throwing their money away.

Reads / situation / stack sizes obviously all play a big role in when you call a shove. Outside of some really totally obscure satellite bubble situation though I'm never folding AA preflop and I'm rarely folding KK preflop.

This would be the comment I'd most agree with! Context is all!

 

[XYZ2123]

Yes you're probably too attached to your AK. I have same difficulty. The hardest thing in poker is being disciplined enough to fold big hands.

AA never fold preflop but be willing to fold it postflop on a wet board against aggressive opponents. It's still only one pair. KK, QQ, AK, AQ debatable depending on situational factors, especially opponent's range and stack sizes.

 

[Jimboskie]

J10s is only a 3 to 2 dog against AKo (as long as the AKo does not contain a blocker suit. ) J10s just has more playability IMO. When it involves making more money I'll fold any hand...

 

[clasrasmusso]

My tip to you is in the long run to be aggressive with AK, percentage you win
that tactic.​

 

[dpoole71]

AKo is a hand i can let go agasint when im deep in a tournamet and im i face a shove agasint a tight player best case probably a flip ll flat ako to 3 bets alot later in tournaments and will 4bet against more aggressive players
Who like to 3 bet but QQ KK AA rarlehy letting gk

 

[Andrei Nesterenko1]

Premium hands like AA or KK throw out pre-flop stupid, math with these hands is always on your side

 

[vpashuta]

AA KK - Never fold preflop- QQ only if you're sure villain has AA or KK , and AK when ever you feel like it - it's just a drawing hand.

 

[MattRyder]

AA KK - Never fold preflop- QQ only if you're sure villain has AA or KK , and AK when ever you feel like it - it's just a drawing hand.

That said, I've lost a couple of times very recently with KK against QQ (all-in pre-flop both times).

 

[ecoland]

You should read informations from faces, and what happened befor on table... but on-line its mission impossible