Tournament Metrics - bb/100?

[NWPatriot]

So I have recently begun digging into my hand histories on HoldemManager2. It appears the primary metric to gage how a cash player is doing is bb/100 (big blinds won per 100 hands).

Lets say that if a cash game player is winning +5 bb/100, and he is thought to be a solid player, what is the equivalent bb/100 value for tournament play? Or is there a better metric? Should the tournament bb/100 be a higher number or a lower number or the same number?

It seems that tournaments have much different dynamics, especially late in tournaments, as far as pot size goes and stack to pot ratios goes. It seems that many standard metrics can get skewed. ROI is the ultimate metric that matters the most, but when trying to find leaks in your play, I don't think ROI can help there.

So..... any thoughts about bb/100 for tournaments?

 

[MatMackenz]

So I have recently begun digging into my hand histories on HoldemManager2. It appears the primary metric to gage how a cash player is doing is bb/100 (big blinds won per 100 hands).

Lets say that if a cash game player is winning +5 bb/100, and he is thought to be a solid player, what is the equivalent bb/100 value for tournament play? Or is there a better metric? Should the tournament bb/100 be a higher number or a lower number or the same number?

It seems that tournaments have much different dynamics, especially late in tournaments, as far as pot size goes and stack to pot ratios goes. It seems that many standard metrics can get skewed. ROI is the ultimate metric that matters the most, but when trying to find leaks in your play, I don't think ROI can help there.

So..... any thoughts about bb/100 for tournaments?

I have heard from numerous sources that your EV bb/100 is the important metric in tournament play. It only counts the BB's you win or lose and ignores all-in varience. This in combination with ROI% should tell you roughly how successful you are over a large sample.

Since there is no rake to combat, it should be easier to be + bb/100 in tournament format over cash format. I would aim for something between 5-10 bb/100 in the stake your playing. If your making over 10 bb/100 and have a good ROI then consider moving up stakes.

Here is a good article for reading - https://www.tournamentpokeredge.com/finding-leaks-using-your-poker-database/

 

[NWPatriot]

I have heard from numerous sources that your EV bb/100 is the important metric in tournament play. It only counts the BB's you win or lose and ignores all-in varience. This in combination with ROI% should tell you roughly how successful you are over a large sample.

Since there is no rake to combat, it should be easier to be + bb/100 in tournament format over cash format. I would aim for something between 5-10 bb/100 in the stake your playing. If your making over 10 bb/100 and have a good ROI then consider moving up stakes.

Here is a good article for reading - https://www.tournamentpokeredge.com/finding-leaks-using-your-poker-database/

Thanks for the input.

How does one arrive at an "EV bb/100" value?

Are you saying that all hands where any player is allin should be ignored due to large variance. I am not sure i understand the logic of this. Near the end of a tournament this will happen A LOT as short stacks start shoving etc. This could easily be 50% of the hands. Allin is an important part of your win/loss rate in a tournament.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Sorry but I don't see the relevance of bb/100 in tournament play. And certainly don't see how it would ever be used to relate to one's abilities in tournament play.
imo, you either know what you're doing or you don't. You're missing spots... or you're not. You're not making +ev calls.. or you are. You're ICM knowledgeable.... or you're not. You adjust play according to effective stack sizes... or you don't. etc. etc. etc.
And in the longrun you're winning (or you're not).

 

[Bozovicdj]

So I have recently begun digging into my hand histories on HoldemManager2. It appears the primary metric to gage how a cash player is doing is bb/100 (big blinds won per 100 hands).

Lets say that if a cash game player is winning +5 bb/100, and he is thought to be a solid player, what is the equivalent bb/100 value for tournament play? Or is there a better metric? Should the tournament bb/100 be a higher number or a lower number or the same number?

It seems that tournaments have much different dynamics, especially late in tournaments, as far as pot size goes and stack to pot ratios goes. It seems that many standard metrics can get skewed. ROI is the ultimate metric that matters the most, but when trying to find leaks in your play, I don't think ROI can help there.

So..... any thoughts about bb/100 for tournaments?

I agree with the post above that there is no relevance in tracking MTT progress with bb/100 like we do in cash games. However, I wouldn't put it all black and white as variance really kicks in online, especially in the past few years, meaning that making +EV decision all the time, can still, unfortunately, backfire.

Anyways, you can keep track of MTT stats by observing two things:

1. % of MTTs that you finish ITM
2. ROI - return of investment

There's a lot of argument about what good numbers should be for these two, people mostly agree that 20% + ITM is very very strong, and 35% + ROI is also very very strong.

 

[NWPatriot]

I agree with the post above that there is no relevance in tracking MTT progress with bb/100 like we do in cash games. However, I wouldn't put it all black and white as variance really kicks in online, especially in the past few years, meaning that making +EV decision all the time, can still, unfortunately, backfire.

Anyways, you can keep track of MTT stats by observing two things:

1. % of MTTs that you finish ITM
2. ROI - return of investment

There's a lot of argument about what good numbers should be for these two, people mostly agree that 20% + ITM is very very strong, and 35% + ROI is also very very strong.

Thanks. You have hit the nail on the head there.

For 2018/19, I have an ITM of about 33%, which I think is very good. However my ROI on tournaments with buyins is negative. (I have quite a few decent freeroll cashes and have a +ROI when I consider these, but I like to exclude these when assessing my play). So I am searching for some other meaningful metrics to analyze my game and figure out how to rectify my dilemma of a good ITM and a poor ROI.

 

[Bozovicdj]

Thanks. You have hit the nail on the head there.

For 2018/19, I have an ITM of about 33%, which I think is very good. However my ROI on tournaments with buyins is negative. (I have quite a few decent freeroll cashes and have a +ROI when I consider these, but I like to exclude these when assessing my play). So I am searching for some other meaningful metrics to analyze my game and figure out how to rectify my dilemma of a good ITM and a poor ROI.

Good ITM but bad ROI means that you are cashing the minimum in tournaments.
My best guess, you are playing tighter in the mid stages of the MTT. Eventually blinds catch up with you leaving you on a short stack, which makes you fold a lot in attempt to get ITM.

Some of the big grinders are going for high risk - high reward plays, like making squeeze 3-bets with AXs from SB/BB positions - plays that many amateurs are not comfortable doing, or calling shoves with smaller pocket pairs like 66s, 77s etc. If they win those hands, they build huge stacks that eventually gets them to later stages of the tournament which is where the real money is.

 

[NWPatriot]

... especially in the past few years, meaning that making +EV decision all the time, can still, unfortunately, backfire...

I am doing better at getting to top 3% of tournaments lately, so i think i have uncovered some leaks and it is helping.

Your comment about "+EV plays backfiring" got me really thinking. Not exactly sure what you meant, but after thinking about this some more, this kind of gave me an Aha moment.

So, in calculating EV we consider the dead money already in the pot. This means that our EV calculations actually divide this money up between the 2 players, so it is conceivable that both players have a +EV play, one just has a higher EV than the other? This means you may convince yourself that you are playing super fantastic because you are always playing +EV, but your opponents may have 2x your EV and are always pulling away from you. Does this make any sense, or am I seriously missing something here? This really only applies when there is dead money, otherwise both players have contributed equally to the pot.

I think i just blew a fuse in my head.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Good ITM but bad ROI means that you are cashing the minimum in tournaments.
My best guess, you are playing tighter in the mid stages of the MTT. Eventually blinds catch up with you leaving you on a short stack, which makes you fold a lot in attempt to get ITM.

.

I would agree.

Also, top Online MTT players (since the beginning of time.. < I'm just saying this because I'm basing my comments mostly from going off of MTT player's stats. back pre-Black Friday... but it's going to be the same today).. have an ITM % around 15% (can vary but this I've seen to be the sweet spot... 14-17%). These are the moorman's, gboro's, paulgees, csimsuxx, etc. etc.

 

[Poker Orifice]

So I am searching for some other meaningful metrics to analyze my game and figure out how to rectify my dilemma of a good ITM and a poor ROI.

I'd suggest scrolling up a bit in this thread & reading my response where I was saying things like "you either know ICM or you don't" "you're either making +ev calls or you're not"... etc. etc. etc.
It's just a very brief view of some topics that are essential for MTT play.
I'd say, work on finding areas of the game you can work on... & the stats. will look after themselves.