General Strategy: Near the bubble when everyone is kinda short

[Jacki Burkhart]

In most tourneys that aren't particularly deepstacked there will come a time when the average stack shrinks to about 20-25bbs usually when you are a handful of people away from the money.

Lately I've gotten a little frustrated when posting some of my hands in the tourney analysis section because anytime I raise less than all in in these situations I get a rash of responses that are basically "Jam or fold preflop. you only have 16bb"

My dilemma is that at these stages 16bb is still a respectable and workable stack compared to the field.

Also, nobody else is really playing that way so open jamming 15-25bb preflop looks and feels like a huge overbet.

I've noticed at this stage that most players raise 2.2-2.7x and those raises are taken pretty seriously and are often enough to get the blinds to fold.

So I guess I'm wondering why you should risk your entire 15-20bb stack to win the blinds near the bubble when often times a much smaller raise will have the same result?

And if you're fairly confident in your post flop skills, shouldn't you try and use some of those skills?

My very favorite move at this stack size is the re-steal but we can't always be so lucky. Sometimes we are dealt a playable hand in early/mid position and have to be the first one into the pot.


So please, those of you that think below a certain stack size you must jam or fold preflop....convince me. I want to understand why that is better than just open raising.

edit to add: I do think there is a stacksize where open jamming is best, but for me that is right around 12bbs.

 

[WiZZiM]

In most tourneys that aren't particularly deepstacked there will come a time when the average stack shrinks to about 20-25bbs usually when you are a handful of people away from the money.

Lately I've gotten a little frustrated when posting some of my hands in the tourney analysis section because anytime I raise less than all in in these situations I get a rash of responses that are basically "Jam or fold preflop. you only have 16bb"
I just respond to the information provided. The most profitable way to play those pocket pair type hands for me is to open jam them in.

My dilemma is that at these stages 16bb is still a respectable and workable stack compared to the field.
If we're talking about open shoving our stack in, we no longer work in true BB's, we adjust the BB level due to the ante in play. So with that pocket 9's hand, blinds 3k/6k with 500 ante, at a full table theres an extra 4500 in the pot, which makes the blind level 4k/8k and we only have 100k in our stack, so right around the 12-14BB mark, which for me is shove or fold time, especially with a hand that runs so poorly if called. Basically i want to win the blinds with as little resistance as possible in these circumstances.
Also, nobody else is really playing that way so open jamming 15-25bb preflop looks and feels like a huge overbet.

I've noticed at this stage that most players raise 2.2-2.7x and those raises are taken pretty seriously and are often enough to get the blinds to fold.
If that is the case then we won't be going preflop as much, which obviously makes raising a smaller amount and risking less way better. But again, i would rather have a hand like 23 offsuit to do this with, as any time we go postflop (barring those undercard flops) we are basically bluffing and our hand doesn't really matter. That info is also not really present and since i don't play much live i'm not really in tune with what goes on
So I guess I'm wondering why you should risk your entire 15-20bb stack to win the blinds near the bubble when often times a much smaller raise will have the same result?

And if you're fairly confident in your post flop skills, shouldn't you try and use some of those skills?
Yes sure. But you should also open way more hands in this spot if you are so confidant. You can open up with way more hands that have more potential for postflop situations, which i'm sure you already do.
My very favorite move at this stack size is the re-steal but we can't always be so lucky. Sometimes we are dealt a playable hand in early/mid position and have to be the first one into the pot.


So please, those of you that think below a certain stack size you must jam or fold preflop....convince me. I want to understand why that is better than just open raising.

edit to add: I do think there is a stacksize where open jamming is best, but for me that is right around 12bbs.

So i hope you kind of understand. We don't have all the info, but with the info provided in your HA, i believed that open jamming is easily the best way to make profit on that particular hand. It doesn't take into account what you want your table position to be, or the other players, as i don't have that information. Also, the overwhelming majority of players here play online, and open jamming stacks like that is quite common, so don't be frustrated, see if you can't incorporate a bit of it into your game. Or not, if you feel like this has no merit in live games, then don't try it, your logic and thoughts matter most of all since again, most of us don't really play live.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

thanks for the reply. I'm not really talking about that 99 hand in particular. I'm talking about the general situation that comes up over and over.

It seems in about 70% of the hands I post on this board the responses I get are "Jam preflop" or "fold preflop" and I guess I'm just resistant to the idea that poker tournaments can be reduced to jam or fold so quickly. I also find it hard to believe that my preflop game is THAT terrible...I mean I'll admit it's not perfect but I reject the idea that the majority of all my poker errors are preflop. I just feel like there's more to the game than that.

While some of these preflop jams may be profitable, that doesn't automatically mean it's the MOST profitable way to play the hand. Now.... I might be convinced that it's the most profitable way to play the hand; but it's gonna take more than "Nash charts say push" since my opponents are playing far far from a NASH strategy.

My gut tells me there's more to this short-ish stacked bubble strategy than push/fold.

 

[toots babos]

I think the reason that you get those responses is that most of the people who reply to your hand requests are online players where those plays are feasible and profitable in the long run however that's where live and online differ as different plays are sort of required in live scenarios. There's no shame in raise folding a 14-16 bb stack in live whereas online sometimes it is ok to also do that however most of the time doing that will jeopardise your game more so than in live scenarios.

I may be totally wrong with my thoughts on this but just my observation and experience with live + online situations.

 

[duggs]

in will respond later, someone pm me if i forget

 

[jj20002]

this stage is not my favorite but it is basically the step before the bubble,

i think this is the moment when the player needs to be more selective not only with the hands but also the bet placed and the opponent to be faced,

there are a lot of things to consider, but basically the rule when opening a hand is that it is good enough to push it, in most cases,

for instance, consider the opponents on the left side, if they are basically passive or too tight, then loosening will be positive but if the players are the kind that flats any bet or defend blinds, and basically they are willing to call any cbet, then the decisions postflop are difficult when the hand fails the flop, because at this stage is hard to lose any chips,

every table is different, every moment has its own variables to consider so there is not a detailed strategy,

and again i commented 2 or 3 of the hands posted before and it went like ¨fold preflop¨ or something, but when is fold there is no much that can be done to change this unless going gamble,

well maybe i´m a little bias here considering i am not comfortable with my postflop game!

finally, the word ¨frustration¨ is like using the opposite of ¨patience¨, and it is because this stage of the mtt seems to last years and this situation leads some players to make mistakes,

 

[WiZZiM]

thanks for the reply. I'm not really talking about that 99 hand in particular. I'm talking about the general situation that comes up over and over.

It seems in about 70% of the hands I post on this board the responses I get are "Jam preflop" or "fold preflop" and I guess I'm just resistant to the idea that poker tournaments can be reduced to jam or fold so quickly. I also find it hard to believe that my preflop game is THAT terrible...I mean I'll admit it's not perfect but I reject the idea that the majority of all my poker errors are preflop. I just feel like there's more to the game than that.

While some of these preflop jams may be profitable, that doesn't automatically mean it's the MOST profitable way to play the hand. Now.... I might be convinced that it's the most profitable way to play the hand; but it's gonna take more than "Nash charts say push" since my opponents are playing far far from a NASH strategy.

My gut tells me there's more to this short-ish stacked bubble strategy than push/fold.

You asked for opinions and opinions were provided. Weather or not you agree is up to you. But i hear what you are saying and def agree that we have plenty of playability with this stack size. But with those hand types i'm reverting back to a shove/fold game more often, whereas something like AK i might just open or 87s i'm more likely to open with that stack size (even though many will think that you can't raise/fold with that stack or you can't play postflop with it).

So I agree with you, but not about those particular hand types, which is why i brought up the 99 hand. Not sure about the other hands you have posted, but we don't really have a very big player base of people here that play tourneys so kind of have to expect a lot of responses like that.

 

[satirist]

I would say that the answer truly depends on whether you're playing for first place or playing just to cash. I tend to get bubbled playing (perhaps) too conservatively, but I would rather go out on my own terms than taking a "donkey" or "fish" risk. Sometimes, if I'm pot committed in a bluff or re-steal situation, I get sucked out. Overall, though, I would say that at or very near 16bb, I'm thinking about what position I'm playing for; first or inside bubble. Of course, playing for first place you often may not cash, and I am not sure of the comparison with playing conservatively, because for me, that tends to backfire almost as much as it works.

 

[Poker Orifice]

in will respond later, someone pm me if i forget

Abdi, be sure to pm duggs if he forgets.:call:

 

[duggs]

Abdi, be sure to pm duggs if he forgets.:call:

i must have missed the joke.

 

[Ambur]

In most tourneys that aren't particularly deepstacked there will come a time when the average stack shrinks to about 20-25bbs usually when you are a handful of people away from the money.

Lately I've gotten a little frustrated when posting some of my hands in the tourney analysis section because anytime I raise less than all in in these situations I get a rash of responses that are basically "Jam or fold preflop. you only have 16bb" All depends on dynamics, structure etc

My dilemma is that at these stages 16bb is still a respectable and workable stack compared to the field. Ofcourse it is, but it depends on dynamics where are you involved in!

Also, nobody else is really playing that way so open jamming 15-25bb preflop looks and feels like a huge overbet. Why should you, if you feel you have good chance to take it down a lot of smaller investment

I've noticed at this stage that most players raise 2.2-2.7x and those raises are taken pretty seriously and are often enough to get the blinds to fold.

true and you should use it time to time, but not overwhelm it

So I guess I'm wondering why you should risk your entire 15-20bb stack to win the blinds near the bubble when often times a much smaller raise will have the same result? Depends on situation - if you take it often down without commiting youselfe go for it!

And if you're fairly confident in your post flop skills, shouldn't you try and use some of those skills? Ofcourse you should but you can not ignore the dynamics where you are involved (structure, stack sizes, position etc)

My very favorite move at this stack size is the re-steal but we can't always be so lucky. Sometimes we are dealt a playable hand in early/mid position and have to be the first one into the pot. That is tru we can not be always lucky


So please, those of you that think below a certain stack size you must jam or fold preflop....convince me. I want to understand why that is better than just open raising. stack size is not only factor which should be consider, so on its really hard or almost impossible for answering for your question! It depends on situation you are involved!

edit to add: I do think there is a stacksize where open jamming is best, but for me that is right around 12bbs.

For me rough line is M5, then it is pretty much push fold!

 

[wowasenotrusov]

it all depends on the growth rate of the blinds and not of their number.

 

[duggs]

In most tourneys that aren't particularly deepstacked there will come a time when the average stack shrinks to about 20-25bbs usually when you are a handful of people away from the money.

Lately I've gotten a little frustrated when posting some of my hands in the tourney analysis section because anytime I raise less than all in in these situations I get a rash of responses that are basically "Jam or fold preflop. you only have 16bb"

My dilemma is that at these stages 16bb is still a respectable and workable stack compared to the field.

Also, nobody else is really playing that way so open jamming 15-25bb preflop looks and feels like a huge overbet.

I've noticed at this stage that most players raise 2.2-2.7x and those raises are taken pretty seriously and are often enough to get the blinds to fold.

So I guess I'm wondering why you should risk your entire 15-20bb stack to win the blinds near the bubble when often times a much smaller raise will have the same result?

And if you're fairly confident in your post flop skills, shouldn't you try and use some of those skills?

My very favorite move at this stack size is the re-steal but we can't always be so lucky. Sometimes we are dealt a playable hand in early/mid position and have to be the first one into the pot.


So please, those of you that think below a certain stack size you must jam or fold preflop....convince me. I want to understand why that is better than just open raising.

edit to add: I do think there is a stacksize where open jamming is best, but for me that is right around 12bbs.

I haven't really played tournaments in a while so i might be out of date.

ok first of all 20-25 bb is fundamentally different to 14-16bb. I don't think iv ever advocated open jamming 25bb ever. nor 20bb.

we will start with 13bb. when you open to 2.7x and someone jams on you. with antes in play there is 13+2.7+2.8ish in the pot already and we need to call 10.3 this means we get 10.3/28.8 in order to break even we need 35% equity. which is really really hard to not have even with the bottom of our opening range, therefore people don't assume they have any fold equity and don't rejam wider, which removes the gains from r/c the top of our range, the tradeoff for that gain is getting flatted by hands that have solid equity and are able to make good decisions v our range. it gets worse when you consider that the bb still gets a very attractive price, and the fact that hands that typically call to see a flop but fold to a shove we would rather fold.

In EP its hard to really do anything other than shove 16-17bb and below, because we just aren't raise/folding very often at a 9 handed table, and therefore raising a linear range is pretty easy to exploit. If we were in late position i like to have a raise/fold a raise/call and a shoving range with 15-19 bb. but in EP this turns into just a shoving range up to 18.

Its worth noting that just because its live the mathematics of the game does not change.

my basic strategy would be something like,
EP: >20bb, only raise, 20bb>x>18bb mostly raise but shove some very specific hands >18bb only shove .

LP >18bb always raise. 18>14BB Shove some and raise others. 14bb> always shove.

SB >22 always raise 20bb>17bb limp, with some raises swell. 17>14 raise some hands shove some others, 14bb> shove everything.

 

[TeUnit]

really think you want to look at the villans, if you think you can get the villan to fold for a min raise then thats the way to go, if you think the villan will instantly rejam or raise you might as well get it all in, but if somebody else is really low stack you can muck it

 

[CheddarBob]

i think it comes down to the table dynamics. for me when i notice people that are just trying to cash a 2.2 or 2.5 raise with anything when you are in late position and one of those "i just want to cash" players are on the bb. a huge percentage of the time you can pick up the blinds. if you have hands like AK in the same situation and there is a big stack in the bb or someone that defends a lot i jam taking the gamble. if they think your stealing they may call and your most likely in a dominating spot or at worst a flip. i def wouldn't revert to one way of playing or the other, figure out how to utilize both. i will also say that if you try it 2-3 times and it doesn't work at all then you have to go to the fold or shove play. but if it works keep doing it.

 

[akyurukov]

It depends on what you want to achieve.
For example if you really want to finish "in the money" because you will return your buy in and even more,you'll play a few hands,in other hand if you really want to win the tournament you must risk more and play more aggressively especially in this stag eof the tournament.
Once again - what you do depends on what you want to achieve.

 

[Ambur]

EP: >20bb, only raise, 20bb>x>18bb mostly raise but shove some very specific hands >18bb only shove .

>18bb only shove: So you will shove every time in EP when your stack is above 18 BB?

 

[BluffMeAllIn]

>18bb only shove: So you will shove every time in EP when your stack is above 18 BB?

most likely means to shove his shoving range and fold anything else.

 

[Ambur]

most likely means to shove his shoving range and fold anything else.

I understand he is probably talking about his shoving range.

But all this does not make sense at all mathematically!

duggs posted: "EP: >20bb, only raise, 20bb>x>18bb mostly raise but shove some very specific hands >18bb only shove . "

First he is talking about over 20BB only raise and between 20BB and 18BB mostly raise and then he is saying should shove over 18BB???

Am i missing something?

 

[BluffMeAllIn]

Ok so obviously I would think he meant <18bb than and was a typo on the sign.....basically below 18bb in EP your in shove/fold mode whereas greater than 18bb you have room to raise/fold but also shoving sometimes whereas if your stack is greater than 20bb you shouldn't be open shove.

I'm sure he will be back to clarify in case I'm reading it wrong.

 

[duggs]

I hope so too, it needs to clarify since i am not mind reader and probably people who read this does not understand neather what does he exactly trying to say!
This community has good potential to develope your game and if we let those small mathematical error inside, then we might end up misunderstanding some really important information which can improve our game!

well, its pretty obvious that its a typo given the other two examples are formatted in the same way but with opposite sign.

 

[jimmy62]

I think that you need to be more selective and patient at this point,I hardly ever put game and payout on the line around bubble time.My thought is,most people at this point cannot layoff playing even the small pairsIE;2s,thru 9s,or,A-10,A-J,A-Q.I either raise 3x BB or fold,BUT if i raise 3x I will also call all in if need be.3x raise ,all in call, or fold.Works for me.

 

[braveboat]

In most tourneys that aren't particularly deepstacked there will come a time when the average stack shrinks to about 20-25bbs usually when you are a handful of people away from the money.

Lately I've gotten a little frustrated when posting some of my hands in the tourney analysis section because anytime I raise less than all in in these situations I get a rash of responses that are basically "Jam or fold preflop. you only have 16bb"

My dilemma is that at these stages 16bb is still a respectable and workable stack compared to the field.

Also, nobody else is really playing that way so open jamming 15-25bb preflop looks and feels like a huge overbet.

I've noticed at this stage that most players raise 2.2-2.7x and those raises are taken pretty seriously and are often enough to get the blinds to fold.

So I guess I'm wondering why you should risk your entire 15-20bb stack to win the blinds near the bubble when often times a much smaller raise will have the same result?

And if you're fairly confident in your post flop skills, shouldn't you try and use some of those skills?

My very favorite move at this stack size is the re-steal but we can't always be so lucky. Sometimes we are dealt a playable hand in early/mid position and have to be the first one into the pot.


So please, those of you that think below a certain stack size you must jam or fold preflop....convince me. I want to understand why that is better than just open raising.

edit to add: I do think there is a stacksize where open jamming is best, but for me that is right around 12bbs.

For myself, when close to the bubble, I'm playing my best hands and air (in position) against similar sized tight stacks. And when I'm playing these hands, I'm usually pushing all in fir maximum fold equity. I really don't want a call.

Wit that said, there's a lot of ways to play on the bubble, so I wouldn't let folks tell you "this is the way to do it." Poker is situational, as you know, so how can anyone claim to have The Answer...

If you want a call, don't push. Otherwise, I'd lean towards getting it in when you're on the bubble. In any case, be glad you're near the money!

 

[HooDooKoo]

In most tourneys that aren't particularly deepstacked there will come a time when the average stack shrinks to about 20-25bbs usually when you are a handful of people away from the money.

Lately I've gotten a little frustrated when posting some of my hands in the tourney analysis section because anytime I raise less than all in in these situations I get a rash of responses that are basically "Jam or fold preflop. you only have 16bb"

And if you weren't getting any responses (which happens in plenty of threads), you'd be frustrated as well. IMO, you should be happy that you're getting responses. Furthermore, you should make a concerted effort to see the merit in the "majority" response --- which the existence of this thread indicates that you are.

Also, nobody else is really playing that way so open jamming 15-25bb preflop looks and feels like a huge overbet.

First off, I agree with duggs that 15BBs is very different than 25BBs. Second, I see people make mistakes or bad plays all the time --- oftentimes the majority of the table I'm sitting at. I choose not to make the same mistakes they are, even if doing so requires me to play differently than everyone else at the table --- so I don't see the relevance of the how everyone else is playing.

I've noticed at this stage that most players raise 2.2-2.7x and those raises are taken pretty seriously and are often enough to get the blinds to fold.

So I guess I'm wondering why you should risk your entire 15-20bb stack to win the blinds near the bubble when often times a much smaller raise will have the same result?

And if you're fairly confident in your post flop skills, shouldn't you try and use some of those skills?

If a standard raise gets enough "respect", I'm fine with making a standard raise with the types of hands where it's generally clear where you stand post-flop. I just don't like making that play with a hand like the aforementioned 99. No matter how good a player you are, 99 is often tough to play postflop --- and your success postflop isn't only a function of how good a player you are postflop, but also how good a postflop player your opponent(s) are. You can make a great play post-flop when behind and still get called by an idiot that thinks he's behind by is pot committed, so I prefer the fold equity of open shoving. Also, in bubble-ish situations I want to maximize the likelihood that I'm playing a pot HU. Open shoving most often generates HU pots, so I prefer to open shove most of the time.

Finally, in my experience, really good post-flop players seldom have bubble worries because they've stolen enough pots along the way to stay out of danger --- so I think they're seldom in this position. That is, I think that really good post-flop players generally have a chip advantage come bubble time and, therefore, have little to worry about.

Just my two cents.

-HooDooKoo

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I'm not neglecting the thread I'm actually deeply pondering the discussion and running some little experiments.

I'm attempting to play some regular SnGs using 2 different strategies. First trying to replicate the strategy Duggs took the time to spell out (thanks Duggs!) and 2nd a strategy that johnathan little describes in his secrets of professional tournament poker volume 1 for playing that stack size.

I'm attempting to discern which approach is the most profitable for the situation I described. I can fully see that both approaches are profitable much like open shoving AA from every position at every stack size will be profitable but at some point it is not the MOST profitable way to play AA.

Also, like tools, some strategies are more effective in the hands of one person than another.

I've chosen $1-$3 9 man SnGs to run this experiment. I usually prefer turbo SnGs however I've found that regular speed SnGs result in that particular stack situation when everyone has about 22-25bbs when there are 4 or 5 people left, so it's easier to get a volume of these situations to compare.

I also realize that SnGs do NOT completely mimic MTTs but I just wanted to try this out.

So far, both strategies are profiting but I've not analyzed the data in too much detail yet because my sample size is really low. I'll report back here later.