DoN (Double or Nothing) vs Fifty50 SNG

[BluffMeAllIn]

So I havn't really seen a great deal of discussions on the forum regarding the DoN or Fifty50 (pokerstars) SNG games, so figured I would start up a thread for some general discussion on the matter and feedback.

Essentially perhaps there some suggestions could be made as to the like or dislike of either or, personally with recently trying to get my head in the game and build up a BR I was looking forward to the DoN as a low varience grind to do so. Was surprised to find the DoN on Pokerstars were now a Fifty50 style (which came to dislike after a couple of times running 8 tables, cashing 7 of them and believe I was up 1$ (these were 1.5$ games). So started to look around and see if I could find some DoN games, which found they still run on a number of other sites like BCP and Carbon I believe (so playing a scatter freeroll on those sites to try and get a small br together to get into the game).

Perhaps there are some forum members who play these regularly, or perhaps not but looking for any feedback from people on why they do or do not like the games, suggestions of sites besides those I have listed which run the DoN still and if possible at low stakes (do believe when I checked BCP the lowest is 5$).

Thanks to anyone who got a point to make on the matter, will be greatly appreciated.
bluff

 

[dmorris68]

DONs have been a staple of mine over the least year or two, I play little other poker these days other than a regular STT here and there. Mainly because I have very little poker time now and can multi-table 6-max DONs and earn a higher ROI with less variance than other games. They also fill faster than regular STTs since I'm a US player and we have little liquidity across the US-facing sites.

Fifty50's are definitely not the same as DONs and have different strategic approaches with a different level of variance. With DONs you play to cash and you don't care about finish place, whereas with Fifty50's you still have some of the same SNG ICM considerations, i.e. you're still playing for 1st place to maximize your ROI. That introduces additional factors that ultimately impact variance. And reduce ROI if you're not a consistent high finisher (and most people aren't). So your profit potential is higher in a DON unless you simply crush.

As a US player, I play DONs on both Revolution and Merge skins, generally up to the $33 stakes although I have played up to the $80's. Basically I play whatever stakes I need to to get in the number of tables I want to play. I never play less than the $5's, although I do tend to cashout frequently leaving a small BR to grind up again, so will start at the $5's or even play out of BRM and go for the $10's. They are great BR builders, I've not found anything faster if you have the knack for them and understand how to adjust (most people continue to play them like a regular SNG).

I believe Bovada also has DONs also but I don't play there. Also look for the 6-max DONs, the 10-max games are higher variance and lower ROI (for me, anyway). I can't stand playing a 10-max now and avoid them.

 

[BluffMeAllIn]

Thanks for the quick response dmorris, glad to see we got some active forum members who like the DoN's .

What is the traffic like on the sites you play with regards to running the DoN's in multitables? I was playing 8-10 of the fifty50 on ps and usually most were filled up very quickly given the huge traffic on there, but as mentioned I would really like to get playing somewhere that has good traffic on the DoN's as my cashing but with little to no proffit on the fifty50 has deterred me from them know how much better it would be for DoN's.

Ps only has the 10 max, 6max sounds like they would likely run much quicker then the 10 max. I found they took close on an hour usually for my set of 10 on ps, how long do the 6 max usually take on average would you figure ( i know its still relative to blind levels etc, but with blinds getting around more its got to speed it up ).

Thanks,
Bluff

 

[Paragon]

DoN's are full of fish, and tight poker will mostly get you wins. Fifty-Fifty's require more skill. So if you are a beginner, I suggest you enter DoN's, as tight poker is not hard to master.

 

[dmorris68]

What is the traffic like on the sites you play with regards to running the DoN's in multitables?

Traffic is piss poor compared to PS, with only 2 DONs per stake per speed (regular and turbo) filling at a time. But you shouldn't have trouble keeping 6-8 tables going once they get started if you can play a range of stakes. If you can only play, say $5 games, then it will be a little harder, but the lower stakes do fill faster. What I do is jump on and signup for every non-turbo DON between say $10 and $33 (there's usually only 2 per stake filling at any given time)

Ps only has the 10 max, 6max sounds like they would likely run much quicker then the 10 max. I found they took close on an hour usually for my set of 10 on ps, how long do the 6 max usually take on average would you figure ( i know its still relative to blind levels etc, but with blinds getting around more its got to speed it up ).

I play mostly 6-max DONs on Revolution. They have both regular and Turbo DONs. I try to avoid the Turbos as I prefer a slower structure (especially at 6-max which is already faster). A regular speed 6-max DON will usually run 25-40 mins -- that's a guesstimate of average based on playing a lot of games, but I've not actually paid that close attention. Guess I could check my HM2 database to see.

DoN's are full of fish, and tight poker will mostly get you wins. Fifty-Fifty's require more skill. So if you are a beginner, I suggest you enter DoN's, as tight poker is not hard to master.

I think you're oversimplifying DONs, or are talking stricly the micro stakes. I know a lot of solid DON regs especially at the higher stakes, and I see a lot of fish in the higher stakes non-DON games, so suggesting all the fish are playing DONs is wrong. I would agree it takes more skill to make an equivalent amount of money in Fifty50's, sure. But isn't that kind of like working harder to make the same profit? Why would you do it? I.e. at a given skill level (until you're high enough to consistently finish 1st *and* accumulate a lot more chips than the rest) you're going to make more money at DONs.

As far as tight poker goes, that's true for any loose game. But DONs aren't always loose, in fact they can be pretty nitty overall, which means you need to be able to play loose to exploit them. Yes they have some mega-fish that splash around and you can pretty easily trap and pick off, but like I said the US DONs are reg infested these days too, so it's not a walk in the park. You have to be able to switch gears at the appropriate times, and that takes skill. I've seen a ton of nits trying to protect their stack and coast into a win, only to be punished and eroded down to a bubble bustout. A good DON player will abuse the hell out of you for playing too tight, especially once he has a guaranteed safe stack of 3K or more.

 

[BluffMeAllIn]

I don't think that DoN's are full of fish, as dmorris indicates they can be pretty nitty as are the fifty50 games. Sometimes it seemed like the fifty50 can come accross looser players trying to accumulate the chips, i have played both with a similar approach. Essentially a tight approach/image and certainly as the blinds get bigger to exploit the more nitty players.

The fifty50 make for a nice profit if can run through them amassing a great deal of chips. I am not exactly a beginner by no means, have been playing poker for years just seems online tilt so easily got the best of mean and has caused me to spew great deals of cash. Therefore am essentially on a reinvent and improving my game to remove my tiltiness so thus my seeking at the moment of lower varience games to build a sustainable bankroll.

That is some great feedback dmorris and much appreciated. Had posted myself another thread last night of a challenge on titan of 0 to 100+ (once I hit 100 i will be then working towards a 1000 and so on). Hopefully my working on my game will eventually bring me out of the hole, nothing worse than being so far in and having to grind but its so far helping my control on tilting.

I am very glad this post has been getting some good discussion and feedback going and is much appreciated. Good to know I am not the only person looking at DoN's to work my way up as not seeing much in the forum on it figured perhaps very few were taking such an approach.

Thanks,
Bluff

 

[AvaloNNN]

Great thread. I must say I used to play DoN on 888 regularly. I have mostly played $5 and $10, sometimes even $20 games, depending on my Bankroll situation.
As for the games, you DO need to have some skills in order to beat these games constantly.
I have already discussed a general DoN strategy in some other threads, but the most important thing is to be able to adjust. Which means, you can have an overall strategy and TAG playing style, but you also need to change that style as the game progresses. Not falling into the red zone and having a decent fold equity are the key factors as well as making the right plays on the bubble.

I have never played fifty50s though. I once looked at a payout structure and personally didn't like it at all.
For example: First 5 places paid $1.35 and only 4 additional cent for every 100 in chips collected is just not a good deal. I think It's harder to make a decent profit from fifty50.

Stick to the DoNs, definitely a good way to build a bankroll.

 

[WeenieSVK]

thats such a great thread! Because I was just thinking about what to start play. DoNs or Fifty50 on PS... After reading this I will start with DoNs definitively. Main reason is that I consider myself to be little bit more tight player, and thats probably not good for fifty50.

 

[BluffMeAllIn]

Thanks for the feedback Avalonnn. I used to play a scatter DoN back in the day they were on pstars but it was in my early days and I didn't have much of a clue at all to be honest so thought they were too nitty of a game for me. Have sized up some sights for the DoN's and like 888 a number of them like BCP only start their DoN's at 5 bucks so gonna have to build me a bit of a bankroll on them before can play such a stake at the moment. Did however manage to win a freeroll on Titan for 10 and they have DoN's that start at 50c and up, so ran me through some 13 of the 1$ with a break even. Took a little adjusting to the 6max situation, plan to get back and grind that in a week or so, I have a thread BluffMeAllIn 0 to 100+ challenge where i been making some journalizing on my progress.

Hey Weenie, thanks. Thought it would be good to start something up as I think its a great way to start a grind if you want as little varience as possible. It does certainly still require adjusting style as others in the thread have mentioned, and both DoN's anf Fifty50 are a tight game however its reassuring to know that if you scrape itm of a DoN your time will have been worth it wereas if you scrape itm in a fifty50 you could be still looking at no profit on the game.

Again many thanks to all for taking part in the thread, feedback has been greatly appreciated and also glad it has helped some other members with deciding were to start out (at least as far as playing the DoN's or the Fifty50.

Bluff

 

[dmorris68]

Disclaimer: BRM is important to anyone taking the game seriously. Don't take this suggestion as blowing off conventional BRM guidelines, but do consider the context.

Disclaimer aside, I don't think you need to be as nitty with your DON BR as with other games. At least I'm not. The variance is lower (especially in 6-max) and my success rate in them is high enough that I have frequently run my BR up to $1500-$2000, withdrawn all but $100-$200, then run it up again from there starting with the $7 games mixed in with some $15 (or $5-$10 depending on site) then working my way back up to the $30-$60 games. Withdraw, rinse, repeat. I generally never play lower than $5. One time I withdrew every penny from a site, intending never to play there again. I got like a $5 RB payment a day or two later, so on a goof starting playing $1 DONs. Within a couple days I had it back up to about $100, where it still sits. LOLsamplesize I know, it's just a humorous anecdote. I'm not saying start with 5 BI's, but 15-20 are probably sufficient if you have a good DON game.

That said, I guess another disclaimer is that I wouldn't have a problem depositing again should I run bad and bust my online BR. So my online BR is not really my total BR. If you have a solid game and are having trouble finding stakes to play, then just deposit enough BI's to start there. I always encourage people to deposit whatever they need to in order to play the stakes they want -- I don't get the reluctance to deposit if you're serious about playing the game and know you could be earning higher. There's no shame in depositing. This whole "build a bankroll from $0" thing is fine for broke newbies or casual players who want to challenge themselves, but really doesn't make sense for someone with a clue about the game. And being US is not an excuse either, I'm US and have always been able to find a way to deposit when I wanted to.

 

[BluffMeAllIn]

Hey dmorriss, thanks again for the info. Personally having to play the micro as can get trying to build up a br due to my past loses playing poker online (not a pretty sight) and feel that I will do much to improve my game and have better respect for a built bankroll than a deposited one (in regards to helping me stay focused to not go tilty).

I have seen in some posts that people look at a br from freerolls as free money, it is but not considering the time invested to get there and especially for someone like myself who is looking to crawl out of a big net loss crater in poker. Its essentially my way of still being able to work towards getting out of the crater, and not dig it any further in the meantime. Also as I said a great help to improve my game, or at least my focus on not going tilt and outside of brm.

Also had a review through some of the golden archieves recently and game accross the following thread that is relevent to the DoN's which I figured I'd post a link in here to anyone who might be reviewing.
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/poker-goals-challenges-wins-46/index2.html

Thanks,
Bluff