Defending the Big Blind...

[kraemer]

Since yesterday someone wondered how i could try to defend my BB with 6 3 suited i will share my thoughts about this play here, so everyone can call me a donkey in the comments...

It was on the final table of the CC PS freeroll. I am in the BB with 63s. Everyone folded with blinds being 1K/2K and 200 Ante. The SB plays a min raise to 4K. I have 15BB stack left...

I only need to pay 2K ( 1 BB ) to see a flop. The pot contains 9.6K. I only need slightly better than 20% odds of winning for this to be a break even play... And with a hand like this you usually have great implied odds against an opponent who raised from the small blind. Most of the times he will play a c-bet on all the flops that are really great for you and you will win even more chips when you do make a hand with these cards.

So what are my odds? If I am up against 2 connected Overcards like AKo, QKo or so then i have 38 - 40% chances of winning. I am in bad shape against pocket pairs 77+ where i get 18%... But even that is close to the odds i need given the pot odds i am offered. Over the possible range of a min raise from the small blind in the late stage of a tournament i am getting far better odds than are required to call.... and does still not include the odds of winning with a bluff c-bet....

And i also think that you should use any opportunity to see a flop on a final table if it only costs you 1 BB.... Maybe not with 72o, but with litterally any hand with options to be playable after the flop... Most of the play at the FT will be shoves/large pre-flop raises and most of the times 1 or more players go all-in during a hand. It is very valuable in my opinion if you get a chance to see a flop for the lowest price possible. There are a lot of hands that give you the required odds to take a chance in those spots.

Now feell free to destroy me in the comments....

 

[popstani]

I’m totally agree with you. I will do same thing, almost with 100% of hands, for that price you had. Here we can ask, why he gave you such a good price? In his shoes, I would bet larger. We don’t know how big stacks are, I presume they are very short, because it’s final table, but if not 3,5-4 BB raise, or all in will make you fold almost 85-90% of hands. So, my opinion is, you did right thing and played well. SB is the one who played poorly

 

[Collin Moshman]

Good reasoning! You were definitely correct to defend the 63s here.

In general, if you're facing a min-raise from the small blind, then you should call with any suited hand in the big blind. The reason is like you said -- you're getting great odds, and you also have position post-flop.

In this spot I would have folded only junk hands like 62o and at least called with everything else.

 

[kraemer]

We don’t know how big stacks are, I presume they are very short, because it’s final table, but if not 3,5-4 BB raise, or all in will make you fold almost 85-90% of hands.

Stacks were ranging from 7 - 30 BB i think...

What's important here is the ante... I think there were 8 players left... maybe we were still 9. Without the 1.6 or 1.8K in antes in the pot the call would already be much harder, probably even wrong...

This spot shows that antes actually change the game and allow for a wider range of hands to be played profitable when you can see a cheap flop...

And you gotta be ready to fold a lot after the flop... Keep losing small pots and win big ones!

EDIT: Actually i won the hand with 66 in the flop and a 3 on the turn giving me a full house I think i was up against A 10...

 

[Jon Poker]

Defending a suited 2 rapper for 1bb in position is not only mathematically profitable, its is the correct theoretical play as well. I think even PIO would tell you to defend this hand heads up in position. Your reasoning is spot on and with a stack so short and such good odds to see a flop we can't afford to miss this spot! Let them call you what they may - but if you are making the correct moves and finding money hops on a consistent basis - then being such a "donkey" might be a good thing!

 

[kraemer]

I must say the player yesterday did not say anything harsh to me... He just asked how i could defend my blind with 36s and it was obvious he thought that was a bad move... But perfectly within the chat netiquette.

 

[MattRyder]

I'm not a big rules-based guy. My favorite quote in Molly's Game is about the fallacy of being priced in. She used the term "fallacy". I've read enough about poker theory to know that it's often recommended. Me - I look at each situation and weigh the pluses and minuses at that moment in time. Odds are part of that analysis. I never automatically react. I've seen lots of crap hands win, or at least would have won had they been played. But by far most of the time they don't.

If it was me who made the comment (I don't remember but definitely could have been) I apologize.

 

[Jon Poker]

I must say the player yesterday did not say anything harsh to me... He just asked how i could defend my blind with 36s and it was obvious he thought that was a bad move... But perfectly within the chat netiquette.

I would say 36s is pretty standard while 36o is probably a snap fold. Too far apart to realize much of our equity. 45o or 56o is an easy defend for 1bb but small gapped cards start to become folds

 

[tame4g]

63s is a fine defend, you flop plenty of (well-disguised) 2 pairs, trips, and even (baby) flushes to make a call for 1 bb more perfectly fine. Whoever said it was a bad call doesn't really know what they're talking about in my opinion!

 

[rock0001]

unless you are really shortstacked like having less than 10 bb, then its ok to call the min raise with almost every hand... you are having position over the sb so its an easy call here,

 

[pepsilv]

Luck plays his part to. and your personal decisiopn as well or instict would be the best to say. I've done that beore and it works.

 

[Akinled]

That is correct. But for these hands like suited connectors it is important that not only a few but at least 3 limpers are in the pot in order to make sure that we get a payoff if we hit a big hand.

 

[rhv85]

i would of called

 

[Jon Poker]

That is correct. But for these hands like suited connectors it is important that not only a few but at least 3 limpers are in the pot in order to make sure that we get a payoff if we hit a big hand.

This is entirely untrue - we dont need limpers to give us good odds to play suited connectors - we simply need about 20:1 on our money to play them profitably. Basically saying, blinds 250/500 ‐ I have a 25k stack - my opponent has a 35k stack and they open raise to $1k ‐ between to two of us there is at least a 20k effective stack in play, I can call in position with my 78s or 89s and look to flop well because I am getting the correct odds to do so. We dont need 50 people in the hand to play suited connectors - just the correct odds via the effective stack in play.

The point of these odds is to tell us when it's mathematically profitable to play these spots instead of spewing chips with a stack to small to be taking these risks with what are still marginal holdings.

Anyway - I'm getting away from the topic at hand in this thread.

Suited connector odds and such do not necessarily come into play when we are discussing blind defense strategy - the most important factors for me here are raise position - stack size - raise size, and my holdings equity. If there is a raise of 2bb from the button and there are antes in play we can call the raise from our BB with a ton of our range. We should be getting somewhere around 4:1 (maybe even a little better) on a call and this would mean we need about 20% equity to make a call profitable. Pull up your equilab and run 63s vs whatever range you want (within logical reason) - even against a top tier range you and you will find we almost always have the equity we need to call 1bb with 63s for the odds that we have been given.

The only exception to this for me is when I have about 10bb or less....then I tend to conserve chips and look for rejam / shove spots rather than worry about the math call with a hand as marginal as 6 hi.

 

[Akinled]

Thank you very much! Keep up the good work! Instructive and entertaining as always!

 

[teebahnoo]

We dont need 50 people in the hand to play suited connectors - just the correct odds via the effective stack in play.

The only exception to this for me is when I have about 10bb or less....

The OP said he had 15bb left and he was in FT where ICM (the word no one used yet in this thread) should come into play. I find this line exotic, to say the least, in this spot. I wouldn't do it with a serious pay jump ahead and a shorter stack at the table.

 

[Jon Poker]

The OP said he had 15bb left and he was in FT where ICM (the word no one used yet in this thread) should come into play. I find this line exotic, to say the least, in this spot. I wouldn't do it with a serious pay jump ahead and a shorter stack at the table.

I think you missed the point of the response but to summarize to the particular situation at hand - even with 15bb it is mathematically profitable to call 1bb with 63s in the BB during a game with antes in play. Even though we are so short there is too much money in the pot and our odds are way too good to fold. As we get shorter we can certainly fold even when the math tells us calling may be profitable. ICM is truly harsh and when we are in sitting 7th place out of 9 players we are relatively hand cuffed as to what hands we should be shoving/calling with as we cannot afford to go bust with the two shorties in play. I am familiar enough with ICM to know that in certain situations we can ONLY call with AA or KK and AKs is a snap fold...most players are missing these areas but I can promise you I am not one of them.

All of this said - still comes down to we should be calling 1bb with suited gappers in the BB and going from there. I think around 10BB we lose post flop playability and have to consider shoving rather than calling and all of this depends on the effective stack size at the table.

 

[zinzir]

I agree your rationale from a theoretical point of view. In real life, however, I see the situation more simplistically: with only 15 BB left, I would not worry too much about odds and implied odds and defending blinds, but rather about picking a good spot to go all in and double my stack.
With blinds so big, just calling there pretty much guarantees the aggressor will bet the flop regardless, and unless you hit 2 pair or better on the flop you will be gambling with your life.
In my humble opinion, defending the blind in that situation is an inferior choice to either folding or shoving, because shoving gives you folding equity and also gives you those odds that you mentioned because it guarantees that you will take the hand to completion. Otherwise, just defending the blind guarantees that you will only see the flop, and those odds are about taking the hand all the way to the river.