Critical Analysis of the 10 BB Shove/Fold Rule

[D0nk3y Hunt3r]

Interesting take on subject:
PokerStrategy Article

Now, I'd like to discuss this:
"Note that it’s very difficult to calculate the EV of limping due to the number of assumptions involved, but it is likely -EV to voluntarily pay 10% of our stack to get involved against one or two random hands with offsuit low cards."

Let's say you limp, everyone folds, BB always at least checks, you play hu.
Let's say you raise 2bb, everyone folds, BB...?

What is your observation, whether 2bb raise is worth it?

 

[Joe]

There might be an argument for betting 2x out of a 10bb stack with some hands but in my opinion, generally speaking, no.

Fold/shove with 10bb or less is better than limping, 2x or 3x etc..

 

[D0nk3y Hunt3r]

There might be an argument for betting 2x out of a 10bb stack with some hands but in my opinion, generally speaking, no.

Fold/shove with 10bb or less is better than limping, 2x or 3x etc..

Why?

 

[D0nk3y Hunt3r]

I'm interested in you observations, how often the BB folds to 2bb raise?

 

[Andyreas]

I'm interested in you observations, how often the BB folds to 2bb raise?

It highly depends from where you raise and how deep the BB is.

If you are in late position, BB has a good hand, is deeper than you and aggressive, it is likely you get 3-bet.

Since you only hit anything on the flop in less than 50% and you can easily get bluffed away, I also do not like the idea of the min-raise.

I only do it, if I have a monster like KK+ and WANT a caller.

If I have a decent Ax, I prefer to add 2BBs to my stack rather than get called by any suited connectors and they hit a pair and I don't.

Or also if I have a medium PP, I prefer to not get called by more than one person which can easily happen with a min-raise.

 

[johnnylawford]

Assuming you mean min raise UTG here's big blinds GTO response:


Note, if you're playing "correctly" (AKA GTO) you're only min raising0.1% of the time (that's not an exaggeration) UTG 10bb deep. You're more likely jamming your middle pairs (44-JJ), most of your suited aces, except A6, A3 and A2, and your best off suite Aces (AT-AK). You're limping AA, KK, QQ, A6s and occasionally some random broadway and suited hands.

 

[D0nk3y Hunt3r]

It highly depends from where you raise and how deep the BB is.

If you are in late position, BB has a good hand, is deeper than you and aggressive, it is likely you get 3-bet.

Since you only hit anything on the flop in less than 50% and you can easily get bluffed away, I also do not like the idea of the min-raise.

I only do it, if I have a monster like KK+ and WANT a caller.

If I have a decent Ax, I prefer to add 2BBs to my stack rather than get called by any suited connectors and they hit a pair and I don't.

Or also if I have a medium PP, I prefer to not get called by more than one person which can easily happen with a min-raise.

What you are saying is right, though I'm interested in observations of people actually reacting to 2x min raise. Theory is one thing, people acting, second.
Adding to that, as theoretical debate to shoving:
you get pocket 3s. Shoving with them is actually almost below coin flip. Being usually called, you are usually behind. Now, if you limp, you have 1 in 9 chances to hit a set and act accordingly, or fold, having another chance at next hand.

 

[D0nk3y Hunt3r]

Assuming you mean min raise UTG here's big blinds GTO response:

Appreciated, this seems like a cool software. Am I understanding this correctly, it's actually worth it to make mini-raise, because BB should fold 37% of the time!!??
Does this software makes math or checks all/many combinations and counts them?

 

[Andyreas]

What you are saying is right, though I'm interested in observations of people actually reacting to 2x min raise. Theory is one thing, people acting, second.

Well I never do it, except in the cases I mentioned. But when I am the person acting after a min-raise of a small stack and have a good hand, I apply pressure since usually they will fold. And if they shove, I am prepared to call, otherwise I don't do it.

Shoving with them is actually almost below coin flip. Being usually called, you are usually behind. Now, if you limp, you have 1 in 9 chances to hit a set and act accordingly, or fold, having another chance at next hand.

That's true. But usually you will not hit the set BUT you could still be in front when the other person missed the flop too. In most cases, they'll bluff you out of the hand.

 

[jrportes21]

in general the shove always has +EV, more considering position, how many in the same hand, and what cards in your hands logically.

 

[D0nk3y Hunt3r]

That's true. But usually you will not hit the set BUT you could still be in front when the other person missed the flop too. In most cases, they'll bluff you out of the hand.

Well, you don't always need set to continue, you can also play them/go all in on flop on many textures when you know the villain image. You showed in one of the threads how you played 4s till river torn YOU apart.
I'm still not convinced. And GTO Wizard surprised me with suggestion for BB to fold to mini raise in 37% cases.

 

[Andyreas]

You showed in one of the threads how you played 4s till river torn YOU apart.

I did but I wouldn't do that again. My guess was right but not worth the risk, in my opinion.

I'm still not convinced.

Well no one if forcing you. Implement the limping/min-raise in your stragey and see if you get the results, you expect.

 

[D0nk3y Hunt3r]

Well no one if forcing you. Implement the limping/min-raise in your stragey and see if you get the results, you expect.

Can I get it on paper, not sure whether proceeding fu rther is l egal .

 

[Andyreas]

Can I get it on paper, not sure whether proceeding fu rther is l egal .

There you go:


Edit: Hope digital is fine too. Nowadays it usually counts.

 

[Kinalha]

Interesting take on subject:
PokerStrategy Article

Now, I'd like to discuss this:
"Note that it’s very difficult to calculate the EV of limping due to the number of assumptions involved, but it is likely -EV to voluntarily pay 10% of our stack to get involved against one or two random hands with offsuit low cards."

Let's say you limp, everyone folds, BB always at least checks, you play hu.
Let's say you raise 2bb, everyone folds, BB...?

What is your observation, whether 2bb raise is worth it?

''Let's say you limp...'' You limp expecting this happen? and if not happen you limp to fold versus any raise? and if limp to hit, and not hit, you make a call to get more short, and the next time some weak hand can pay your raise/all in more times than only strong hands can pay your all in with 10 bb's if u are playing with versus a regullar player, probably he get some advantage in this situation, limp never gonna be lucrative for hit hands, only for trap suscefull. IMO

 

[KrazyKoo]

Tournament poker should just be all in and fold, it's the most fun

 

[Kinalha]

Tournament poker should just be all in and fold, it's the most fun

are many bingo sites/places around the world bro, poker is another thing

 

[BelFish]

Fold equity + hand equity is power!

 

[jonaselloco]

Hello brother
I read the article and try to understand where you want to go.
I'll tell you what I do with 10 BBs.
For me the MTT doesn't end even with 1 BB. There are many players who get desperate being with 10 BB, in general that does not happen to me.
If I had monster hands AA KK QQ AKs in general I always go all in.
but when I have a hand in suited for example A5s A10s that are not ultra-winning hands, there in general I do a miniraise according to the position and if it is in BB I do a limp. It really can be your big hand that you get a flush at showdown. Holding Ace in hand you know that unless someone hits a straight flush, the hand is generally always yours.
And out there, the more players enter the hand, the better, if your hand comes out, the greater your profit will be. You will tell me that it is a great risk to do that, and I could tell you yes or no, because in truth you are almost dead in the MTT and if that hand comes out right there is the possibility of getting up.
They are ways of playing, in general I decide a lot at the precise moment I am playing, and in truth many times I get out of the conventional rules. It is a risk that I run, it is true, but many times to win you must take risks.
We all know that an all in preflop does not even guarantee that you will win, it is true that the possibilities are very great you do not have an exact guarantee.
That's why many times with that amount of blinds I bet that the showdown favors me. The last thing that can happen, that with 10 BB you make a limp of a 3 bet raise of the villain, and you get a horrible flop and then you fold, you will always have 7 blinds left for the miracle.
At one time I had changed my old game to follow the new rules of strategies and everything related to it, and I tried to follow it to perfection and the truth is that I noticed that I was playing worse and worse. So I decided to go back to playing as I always did, taking certain teachings about fairness, range, positions that I incorporated into my game but without changing the way I always played, which had given me very good results. Just then I started to enjoy poker again.
From now on I'm having my good tantrums hahaha but hey brother it's part of the game.
What matters is enjoying it. It's simple if I don't enjoy it, I'm going to play chess.
Greetings brother Carlos

 

[dallam]

I believe under 10bbs you definitely supposed to go all-in, not overdoing it by tactics.


This is a protection for all of your squeezable hands, running them with the same powerful message, and that's why they can get it through / they can be called. If you separate them under 10bbs to boxes like - limp / min-raise / shove - you literally making yourself vulnerable : risking yourself to making a hero-fold, grab in some even questionable hands from position.

Another aspect you have to see that we are talking about serious blinds to pick up even with a shove: around 2.5bb-s if noone calls us. If we have the best case that we're talking about - 10bbs - its 25% of our stack! So if we even not be called, and facing with a 'win or go home' situation, we are picking up 8-10 round plus by one laydown like this, depending on the structure and table.

In my eyes it's more important to have a clear imagination about what do you wanna shove and when and why.

GL!

 

[BelFish]

Here are the results of 2 recent CC freerolls for the 17th and 18th of October. And 2 times in a row they were won by a man who, as it is said in Moshman's book on Sit and Go, is a "high blind limper" )))
So many times he limped short stacked close to the end of the tournament... I like to limp a lot myself, but this guy is the king of limps





The 10bb stack critique analysis article mentions limping as a not-so-calculated move and talks about "pioneers of short-stacked min-raising" (instead of shoving/folding) from Moshman's team. Maybe this guy learned from them, but he went even further than the teachers, introducing into the game, in addition to mini-raises, also profitable limps ))

I'm not sure it's just a matter of luck. He seems to know something about the correct short stack limp play!

 

[Kinalha]

Here are the results of 2 recent CC freerolls for the 17th and 18th of October. And 2 times in a row they were won by a man who, as it is said in Moshman's book on Sit and Go, is a "high blind limper" )))
So many times he limped short stacked close to the end of the tournament... I like to limp a lot myself, but this guy is the king of limps





The 10bb stack critique analysis article mentions limping as a not-so-calculated move and talks about "pioneers of short-stacked min-raising" (instead of shoving/folding) from Moshman's team. Maybe this guy learned from them, but he went even further than the teachers, introducing into the game, in addition to mini-raises, also profitable limps ))

I'm not sure it's just a matter of luck. He seems to know something about the correct short stack limp play!

This only work in the freerolls, because has no afraid to lose money, and most people don't pressure the others 90% of the time, versus a regular field, with good reg players, limpers never gonna had be long-therm results. Watch a final table of any big tournament, and see how many times limps in the EP/MP happens

 

[BelFish]

Well, at the final table, CC freerolls are closer to regular tournaments than freerolls. And there is enough opposition to the limps. He probably knows how to balance hands with which he limps ))

 

[Kinalha]

This only work in the freerolls, because has no afraid to lose money, and most people don't pressure the others 90% of the time, versus a regular field, with good reg players, limpers never gonna had be long-therm results. Watch a final table of any big tournament, and see how many times limps in the EP/MP happens

This words only works if you want some more from poker, obvious for a freerolls can had results, but if you play micro and want run up for another big tournaments, this ''limp strategy'' never be lucrative

 

[Leandro6803]

with 10 bb if I'm going to play a hand I always shove all in, raising 2x or limping is a lot to show that you have a good hand.

if the opponent has game he will call because there are few blinds and practically no fold equity.